Enemy's enemies are your friends - jews and Christians, unlikely friendship

[dybmh]

I would like to see what is actually said in the book of Hebrews that makes you think it says Torah is passing away. But anyway, the new covenant is declared already in the OT, so it is not just some idea only in NT.

... the New Covenant again, here's reply #152...

Excuse the interjection?

The most important element, which I think you're missing, is verse 32 ( in the Christian OT ). This verse describes the difference between the new covenant and the previous covenant. The new covenant will be followed.

please take a look at Jeremiah 31:32. Then take a look at Deuteronomy 13:1-3. According to Jeremiah, this new covenant which is inscribed on the hearts of the Jewish people, includes the prohibition against following Jesus.

 

[1213]

... the New Covenant again, here's reply #152...

Sorry, I don’t see how that is relevant to what I said.

... please take a look at Jeremiah 31:32. Then take a look at Deuteronomy 13:1-3. According to Jeremiah, this new covenant which is inscribed on the hearts of the Jewish people, includes the prohibition against following Jesus.

Deuteronomy says:

If there arise in the midst of you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them; you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or to that dreamer of dreams: for Yahweh your God proves you, to know whether you love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

How is Jesus teaching us to go after other gods?

 

[1213]

....in a way not in accord with Jewish understanding. ... ...we see the one you present as incorrect. ...

In that case, please tell how Jews understand those scriptures (Deuteronomy 30:6-9, Jeremiah 31:31-34)?

I think they mean directly what they say and no interpretation is really needed.

 

[rosends]

In that case, please tell how Jews understand those scriptures (Deuteronomy 30:6-9, Jeremiah 31:31-34)?

I think they mean directly what they say and no interpretation is really needed.

Deut is speaking about the people's ability to abide by the words of the covenant with God (which includes all the words and laws of the Torah, as evidenced by the reference to the covenant in 28:58). It is part of an invocation which Moses gave on his last day of life when he reiterated the entirety of the law, binding the people to an extensive religious and moral code. The promise was that in the future, people would be naturally connected to that code and fulfill all of it (30:8 and 10...the whole of the Torah).

Jer 31, in 33 and 34 makes it clear that this is exactly what the expectation is -- that the entirety of the covenant (the Hebrew words for "my Torah") will be inscribed on the people's hearts and they will follow all the Torah rules without having to be taught anything. This will be different from generations earlier which had to try, and learn how to obey. The new version will be inscribed directly on people's hearts (as it were). The rules won't change - the people will. This means that then, now and in the future, all Torah law, as given to the Jewish people, is binding on the Jewish people. Claiming that there is a "new covenant" which has any change to its content goes against Jewish understanding as the text makes clear that the "new" has to do with the presentation and impact, not the content. And the fact that we are all still in need of teaching is pretty clear proof that any time of a new covenant in any sense has not come yet.

Then, there is the question of what counts as this "Torah" which will be inscribed on the people's hearts and which is identical with the Torah that Moses taught. Judaism says that it includes a written and an oral component, each equally binding and authoritative. Part of that set of laws, then, is the understanding that texts beyond the Jewish Torah have no value, so the Gospels have no relevance. So elements like the antitheses, changes in religio-legal practices, the notion of vicarious forgiveness via death, the use of a term referencing anointing at a time when no one was anointed, claims that anyone at Jesus' time spoke on behalf of God, or acted as a priest though not of a priestly line, plus some of the other aspects (violence in the temple, the idea of an eternal covenant becoming old) all point to vastly different understandings of Judaism and Jewish law.

 

[dybmh]

How is Jesus teaching us to go after other gods?

That's what it seems like to me... Jesus is portrayed as God, a God that was not known. An other God. With a human form. And according to the Christian Bible, Jesus asked his disciples to serve him...didn't he? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

Deuteronomy says:

If there arise in the midst of you a prophet, or a dreamer of dreams, and he give you a sign or a wonder, and the sign or the wonder come to pass, whereof he spoke to you, saying, Let us go after other gods, which you have not known, and let us serve them; you shall not listen to the words of that prophet, or to that dreamer of dreams: for Yahweh your God proves you, to know whether you love Yahweh your God with all your heart and with all your soul.
Deuteronomy 13:1-3

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Please show one example what do you mean?

Matthew 2:23 "He shall be called a Nazarene." A Nazarene means someone who comes from the town of Nazareth, as Matthew indicates. But no such prophecy exists in the Tanakh.

I would like to see what is actually said in the book of Hebrews that makes you think it says Torah is passing away.

Hebrews 8:13 "When He said, "A new covenant," He has made the first obsolete. But whatever is becoming obsolete and growing old is ready to disappear."

But anyway, the new covenant is declared already in the OT, so it is not just some idea only in NT.

You would think that if the gospels were declared in the Tanakh, you would find at least one place where it said, "Believe in the Messiah and your sins will be forgiven," or "Have faith in the messiah, that you might be saved." There is nothing there. Zip. Zilch. There is no message of the Christian New Covenant in the Tanakh. Christians first rip out the message of the Tanakh, which is repeated countless time, TO OBEY GOD, and then in their own scriptures, replace it with belief in their messiah.

Yahweh your God will circumcise your heart, and the heart of your seed, to love Yahweh your God with all your heart, and with all your soul, that you may live. Yahweh your God will put all these curses on your enemies, and on those who hate you, who persecuted you. You shall return and obey the voice of Yahweh, and do all his commandments which I command you this day. Yahweh your God will make you plenteous in all the work of your hand, in the fruit of your body, and in the fruit of your cattle, and in the fruit of your ground, for good: for Yahweh will again rejoice over you for good, as he rejoiced over your fathers;
Deuteronomy 30:6-9

Behold, the days come, says Yahweh, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they broke, although I was a husband to them, says Yahweh. But this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says Yahweh: I will put my law in their inward parts, and in their heart will I write it; and I will be their God, and they shall be my people: and they shall teach no more every man his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, Know Yahweh; for they shall all know me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says Yahweh: for I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin will I remember no more.
Jeremiah 31:31-34

The teachings of Jesus and Paul are basically about that and by what Jesus said there can happen the change in persons heart.[/QUOTE]

 

[1213]

Matthew 2:23 "He shall be called a Nazarene." A Nazarene means someone who comes from the town of Nazareth, as Matthew indicates. But no such prophecy exists in the Tanakh.

If it doesn’t exist in Tanakh, does it mean that the prophesy "He shall be called a Nazarene." would not have existed at all?

…
You would think that if the gospels were declared in the Tanakh, you would find at least one place where it said, "Believe in the Messiah and your sins will be forgiven," or "Have faith in the messiah, that you might be saved." There is nothing there. Zip. Zilch. There is no message of the Christian New Covenant in the Tanakh. Christians first rip out the message of the Tanakh, which is repeated countless time, TO OBEY GOD, and then in their own scriptures, replace it with belief in their messiah.

It would be better if you would have shown the exact scriptures, but… …I think in this one should first think carefully what it means to “have faith in Messiah to be saved”. I have understood faith comes from word faithful and the meaning is to be loyal. And so, what would it mean to be loyal to Jesus? I think it means that one keeps what Jesus said. And this leads to question, what did Jesus say. And Jesus said for example, keep the commandments. And this leads to question, is it not also the message in OT that we would keep the commandments?

 

[1213]

That's what it seems like to me... Jesus is portrayed as God, a God that was not known. An other God. With a human form. And according to the Christian Bible, Jesus asked his disciples to serve him...didn't he? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

I don’t think Bible tells Jesus is God, because it is said:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Jesus acted in the name of God, he spoke in the name of God, the message God had given him to speak. I think that is the reason why some may have thought he is God on earth.

"My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. …”
John 7:16-17

So, by what the Bible tells, Jesus is not the one and only true God, even if he would act in the name of God.

I think it is also good to know that even Paul tells that there is only one true God, and Jesus is a man.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

By what I know, Bible doesn’t have any scripture that tells Jesus asked people to worship him. Instead I have understood that Jesus wanted people to be loyal to the one and only true God (who is greater than him).

Interesting thing is that it seems “Christians” don’t really believe what Jesus or Paul says, they seem to rather follow own doctrines.

 

[1213]

…The new version will be inscribed directly on people's hearts (as it were). The rules won't change - the people will. …

…Then, there is the question of what counts as this "Torah" which will be inscribed on the people's hearts and which is identical with the Torah that Moses taught….

Nice, then I think we are not so far from each other. I agree that the rules don’t change, people will. And I think the change happens by words Jesus told, they can cause change in persons mind and lead to person have Holy Spirit to guide one to correct direction.

The only difference seems to be in that what is God’s law, or what was the law of the covenant that was made through Moses. Bible tells that the covenant God made had ten commandments, that is why I think the God’s law is then the commandments. That is also confirmed by Jesus in the Bible.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

But Jesus said:

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

That is why I wouldn’t say that any of the commandments in the Bible are not valid. Only thing that I think is problematic in that is, if person obeys them with wrong reason. I think it is wrong to obey them to earn salvation or forgiveness. Right reason to obey is that person loves God and therefore wants to live by them. What is your reason to obey them?

For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments. His commandments are not grievous.
1 John 5:3

 

[rosends]

And I think the change happens by words Jesus told, they can cause change in persons mind and lead to person have Holy Spirit to guide one to correct direction.

And I don't. This seems to be quite a divide. I'm not sure Jesus existed, and if he did, if he said or did anything that is recorded about him, and if he did or said anything, I am sure that they have no power, authority or bearing on how to live my life.

Bible tells that the covenant God made had ten commandments, that is why I think the God’s law is then the commandments. That is also confirmed by Jesus in the Bible.

Yahweh said to Moses, "Write you these words: for in accordance with these words I have made a covenant with you and with Israel." He was there with Yahweh forty days and forty nights; he neither ate bread, nor drank water. He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

But Deut 29:20 says that the words of the "covenant" are all the ones written in the Book of the Torah. So limiting it to those 10 is an error.

But Jesus said:

Don't think that I came to destroy the law or the prophets. I didn't come to destroy, but to fulfill. For most assuredly, I tell you, until heaven and earth pass away, not even one smallest letter or one tiny pen stroke shall in any way pass away from the law, until all things are accomplished. Whoever, therefore, shall break one of these least commandments, and teach others to do so, shall be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven; but whoever shall do and teach them shall be called great in the Kingdom of Heaven.
Mat. 5:17-19

That is why I wouldn’t say that any of the commandments in the Bible are not valid.

And this would apply then to all the commandments in the entire Torah, and that they apply to the people to whom they were given, Jews.

What is your reason to obey them?

Ultimately, because they were given to me to obey. The Children of Israel said that they would follow them after hearing a wife variety of laws from God (starting before the 10 statements, and continuing through Ex 21-23 and the beginning of 24), all the laws that Moses got from God and wrote down in the text of the Torah (24:4).

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I don’t think Bible tells Jesus is God, because it is said:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Jesus acted in the name of God, he spoke in the name of God, the message God had given him to speak. I think that is the reason why some may have thought he is God on earth.

"My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. …”
John 7:16-17

So, by what the Bible tells, Jesus is not the one and only true God, even if he would act in the name of God.

I think it is also good to know that even Paul tells that there is only one true God, and Jesus is a man.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

By what I know, Bible doesn’t have any scripture that tells Jesus asked people to worship him. Instead I have understood that Jesus wanted people to be loyal to the one and only true God (who is greater than him).

Interesting thing is that it seems “Christians” don’t really believe what Jesus or Paul says, they seem to rather follow own doctrines.

You should quote (John 17:5) with that. "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was."

The Father is greater than the Son. That doesn't mean the Son is not Deity.

Some such as I believe Jesus was Deity because of Scripture. See (Luke 17:15-16) "...when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet...."

What the Bible tells us is that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. See. (Matt. 28:9-10) Jesus did not reject their worship.

See (Heb. 1:6). The angels of God worship Him.

See (Rev. 5:12-14) The Lamb, Jesus Christ, will be worshiped forever.

See (Matt. 4:8-10) "....Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve."

I as a Christian believe what Jesus and Paul said.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[dybmh]

I don’t think Bible tells Jesus is God, because it is said:

This is eternal life, that they should know you, the only true God, and him whom you sent, Jesus Christ.
John 17:3

…the Father is greater than I.
John 14:28

Jesus acted in the name of God, he spoke in the name of God, the message God had given him to speak. I think that is the reason why some may have thought he is God on earth.

"My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me. …”
John 7:16-17

So, by what the Bible tells, Jesus is not the one and only true God, even if he would act in the name of God.

I think it is also good to know that even Paul tells that there is only one true God, and Jesus is a man.

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

By what I know, Bible doesn’t have any scripture that tells Jesus asked people to worship him. Instead I have understood that Jesus wanted people to be loyal to the one and only true God (who is greater than him).

Interesting thing is that it seems “Christians” don’t really believe what Jesus or Paul says, they seem to rather follow own doctrines.

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that your understanding of the NT is:
Jesus isn't G-d
Jesus shouldn't be worshiped

Am I understanding your POV correctly?

 

[1213]

If I'm reading this correctly, you're saying that your understanding of the NT is:
Jesus isn't G-d
Jesus shouldn't be worshiped

Am I understanding your POV correctly?

I think that is what the Bible tells. According to the Bible there is only one true God and He is greater than Jesus. And as Paul says, Jesus, the man, is the mediator between God and men. By what the Bible tells, Jesus is the image of God.

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…
Colossians 1:14

Why then some claim otherwise, you may ask, and my answer is that they have misunderstood what it means that Jesus speaks in the name of God and that God lives in Jesus (same way as God also lives in disciples of Jesus).

 

[1213]

…

Some such as I believe Jesus was Deity because of Scripture. See (Luke 17:15-16) "...when he saw that he was healed, turned back, and with a loud voice glorified God, And fell down on his face at his feet...."…

I think it would be correct to say Jesus is the king. If someone comes to Jesus to thank him, I think it doesn’t mean Jesus is then Deity.

…What the Bible tells us is that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh. See. (Matt. 28:9-10) Jesus did not reject their worship.

He said "Don't be afraid. Go tell my brothers that they should go into Galilee, and there they will see me.". So, he either didn’t let them continue that. But, the word “worship” has meaning “used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, for example to the Jewish high priests”. I don’t think they worshiped Jesus as the one and only true God, because according to the Bible, Jesus is the high priest of God.

Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:17-18

Having then a great high priest, who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold tightly to our confession. For we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore draw near with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace for help in time of need.
Hebrews 4:14-16

And about Jesus being God in flesh, I think that is wrong way to say it. Bible tells God lives in Jesus, similarly as also in disciples of Jesus.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works….
John 14:10

For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

Jesus is the temple of God.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Who spoke what God had commanded him to speak.

My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.
John 7:16

But, there is also this interesting saying:

Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.
John 13:20

So, if I am sent by Jesus and you receive me, you receive Jesus. Still, I am not Jesus himself. I just speak what Jesus told. Same is with Jesus, Jesus was sent by God and Jesus spoke what God had told him to speak. If we receive Jesus, we receive also him who sent Jesus. It doesn’t mean that Jesus is then also the one who sent. But, what we do to him who God sent, we do it also to God. And even:

I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' "Then they will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?' "Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matt. 25:43-46

Jesus is like ambassador of God, what we do to him, we do also to God, because Jesus represents God on earth.

 

[1213]

...But Deut 29:20 says that the words of the "covenant" are all the ones written in the Book of the Torah. So limiting it to those 10 is an error.....

Was that correct reference, because when I look it, it says:

Yahweh will not pardon him, but then the anger of Yahweh and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and all the curse that is written in this book shall lie on him, and Yahweh will blot out his name from under the sky.
Deut 29:20

 

[RabbiO]

Was that correct reference, because when I look it, it says:

Yahweh will not pardon him, but then the anger of Yahweh and his jealousy will smoke against that man, and all the curse that is written in this book shall lie on him, and Yahweh will blot out his name from under the sky.
Deut 29:20

The verse cited by rosends is verse 21in Christian bibles.

 

[dybmh]

I think that is what the Bible tells. According to the Bible there is only one true God and He is greater than Jesus. And as Paul says, Jesus, the man, is the mediator between God and men. By what the Bible tells, Jesus is the image of God.

in whom we have our redemption, the forgiveness of our sins; who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation…
Colossians 1:14

Why then some claim otherwise, you may ask, and my answer is that they have misunderstood what it means that Jesus speaks in the name of God and that God lives in Jesus (same way as God also lives in disciples of Jesus).

Ahhhh now I get it, it reminds me of the Baha'i.

Here's the next problem:

Deut. 4:2

"Do not add to the word which I command you, nor diminish from it, to observe the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you."

This explicitly without a doubt is contradicted by this:

For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, neither is that circumcision which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly, and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit not in the letter; whose praise is not from men, but from God.
Romans 2:28-29

Anyone who advocates for this, is not advocating for Torah Observance. Can we agree to this?

 

[dybmh]

Right reason to obey is that person loves God and therefore wants to live by them. What is your reason to obey them?

I think it's a great question, each Jewish person, of course will have their own answer. For me, it's because, for a Jewish person, observing the law lights us up from the inside out. The law is a many stranded rope connecting to the Divine.

There's an analogy about the law that I appreciate. Each law is like being kissed affectionately from above. Like a parent's kiss on the forehead.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I think it's a great question, each Jewish person, of course will have their own answer. For me, it's because, for a Jewish person, observing the law lights us up from the inside out. The law is a many stranded rope connecting to the Divine.

There's an analogy about the law that I appreciate. Each law is like being kissed affectionately from above. Like a parent's kiss on the forehead.

Beautifully, beautifully said.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

If it doesn’t exist in Tanakh, does it mean that the prophesy "He shall be called a Nazarene." would not have existed at all?

I'm not sure what you mean. The verse in Matthew refers to the Prophets, the Prophets being those who are within the Tanakh.

There were of course many other prophets who said many other things, but none of those things are for our benefit. They are strictly for Israel or Judah at the time they spoke. Everything that we need, everything relevant for the future, was written down and is part of canon.

Thus, the so-called prophecy in Matthew "He shall be called a Nazarene" MUST be found within the Tanakh, and it simply isnt there.

It would be better if you would have shown the exact scriptures, but… …I think in this one should first think carefully what it means to “have faith in Messiah to be saved”. I have understood faith comes from word faithful and the meaning is to be loyal. And so, what would it mean to be loyal to Jesus? I think it means that one keeps what Jesus said. And this leads to question, what did Jesus say. And Jesus said for example, keep the commandments. And this leads to question, is it not also the message in OT that we would keep the commandments?

I don't think that Chrisitans have the notion that "obedience is belief." I think, from all my experiences with Christians, that "belief" is talking about acceptance of "the gospel," that Jesus is the messiah who died for their sins and rose from the dead and will come again. Obedience and good works are supposed to be, for them, the result of that faith. Any Christian here is welcome to correct me if I have this wrong.