Enemy's enemies are your friends - jews and Christians, unlikely friendship

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

I think it would be correct to say Jesus is the king. If someone comes to Jesus to thank him, I think it doesn’t mean Jesus is then Deity.



He said "Don't be afraid. Go tell my brothers that they should go into Galilee, and there they will see me.". So, he either didn’t let them continue that. But, the word “worship” has meaning “used of homage shown to men and beings of superior rank, for example to the Jewish high priests”. I don’t think they worshiped Jesus as the one and only true God, because according to the Bible, Jesus is the high priest of God.

Therefore he was obligated in all things to be made like his brothers, that he might become a merciful and faithful high priest in things pertaining to God, to make atonement for the sins of the people. For in that he himself has suffered being tempted, he is able to help those who are tempted.
Hebrews 2:17-18

Having then a great high priest, who has passed through the heavens, Jesus, the Son of God, let us hold tightly to our confession. For we don't have a high priest who can't be touched with the feeling of our infirmities, but one who has been in all points tempted like we are, yet without sin. Let us therefore draw near with boldness to the throne of grace, that we may receive mercy, and may find grace for help in time of need.
Hebrews 4:14-16

And about Jesus being God in flesh, I think that is wrong way to say it. Bible tells God lives in Jesus, similarly as also in disciples of Jesus.

Don't you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works….
John 14:10

For in him all the fullness of the Godhead dwells bodily,
Colossians 2:9

Don't you know that you are a temple of God, and that God's Spirit lives in you?
1 Corinthians 3:16

Jesus is the temple of God.

Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up." The Jews therefore said, "Forty-six years was this temple in building, and will you raise it up in three days?" But he spoke of the temple of his body.
John 2:19-21

Who spoke what God had commanded him to speak.

My teaching is not mine, but his who sent me.
John 7:16

But, there is also this interesting saying:

Most assuredly I tell you, he who receives whomever I send, receives me; and he who receives me, receives him who sent me.
John 13:20

So, if I am sent by Jesus and you receive me, you receive Jesus. Still, I am not Jesus himself. I just speak what Jesus told. Same is with Jesus, Jesus was sent by God and Jesus spoke what God had told him to speak. If we receive Jesus, we receive also him who sent Jesus. It doesn’t mean that Jesus is then also the one who sent. But, what we do to him who God sent, we do it also to God. And even:

I was a stranger, and you didn't take me in; naked, and you didn't clothe me; sick, and in prison, and you didn't visit me.' "Then they will also answer, saying, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and didn't help you?' "Then he will answer them, saying, 'Most assuredly I tell you, inasmuch as you didn't do it to one of the least of these, you didn't do it to me.' These will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life."
Matt. 25:43-46

Jesus is like ambassador of God, what we do to him, we do also to God, because Jesus represents God on earth.

(John 17:5) is clear that Jesus existed as the Son before the World began. Jesus is God the Son.

Well,yes it is correct to say that Jesus is King as that is His relationship with Israel. But you missed or ignored the meaning in (Luke 17:15-17). The Leper glorified God and fell at His feet. That is the feet of Jesus.

Sorry. The Scripture is clear. They worshiped Jesus. (Matt. 28:9) "And as they went to tell his disciples, behold, Jesus met them, saying, All hail. And they came and held him by the feet, and worshipped him." And Jesus Christ did not reject their worship.

That Jesus is a Priest plays no role in Him being God. He is Prophet, Priest, and King. But He is also God in the flesh. And that is the only way to say it.

(John 14:10) and (Col. 2:9) support Jesus Christ as God.

Concerning (1Cor. 3:16), believers have the Spirit of God because they have the Spirit of Christ in them. (Rom. 8:9) "But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his." See, The Spirit of Christ is the Spirit of God because Jesus is God the Son.

Concerning (John 7:16-17),the Son recognizes that the Father is greater. The Son declares the teaching of the Father. That doesn't mean the Son is not God. The Son always does the will of the Father. It doesn't make the Son, Jesus, any less God.

Concerning (John 13:20), The Son was sent by the Father. The sending does not mean the Son is not God the Son. The Son is not the Father, but He is God the Son. Plus this verse is proof of Jesus deity. He equates Himself to God.

Concerning (Matt 25:43-46) Just like the Jews are really Jesus brethren because Jesus was really a Jew. So, Jesus is really God because whosoever receiveth Him receiveth God. Again, more proof of Jesus deity.

Jesus was God on the earth and did the will of the Father. He now sits at the right hand of the Father.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[1213]

...Jesus is God the Son.
...

But there is no scripture in the Bible that says “Jesus is God the Son”. Instead we have for example this:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Should I believe Paul, or you?

 

[1213]

I'm not sure what you mean. The verse in Matthew refers to the Prophets, the Prophets being those who are within the Tanakh… …Thus, the so-called prophecy in Matthew "He shall be called a Nazarene" MUST be found within the Tanakh, and it simply isnt there…

Sorry, I don’t see any reason why it must be found in modern Tanakh.

…I don't think that Christians have the notion that "obedience is belief." I think, from all my experiences with Christians, that "belief" is talking about acceptance of "the gospel," that Jesus is the messiah who died for their sins and rose from the dead and will come again...

Yes, “Christians” say many things. For me, what Jesus says is the important and meaningful thing. After all, I want to be a disciple of Jesus, not a disciple of some modern “Christian”.

…if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments…
Matt. 19:17-19

Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter into the Kingdom of Heaven; but he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven.
Matt. 7:21

But it is interesting, if “Christians” believe Jesus is real and even God, why don’t they believe what Jesus said?

 

[1213]

...Anyone who advocates for this, is not advocating for Torah Observance. Can we agree to this?

Sorry, I don’t see how Romans 2:28-29 is adding or diminishing what God has commanded.

 

[1213]

The verse cited by rosends is verse 21in Christian bibles.

Ok, thank you. That scripture tells:

Yahweh will set him apart to evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that is written in this book of the law.
Deu. 29:21

And Rosends said: “But Deut 29:20 says that the words of the "covenant" are all the ones written in the Book of the Torah”.

There still seems to be something missing.

And this leads to question, why it is said “the words of the covenant, the ten commandments”, if there is actually more commandments included in the covenant?

…He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

 

[dybmh]

Sorry, I don’t see how Romans 2:28-29 is adding or diminishing what God has commanded.

OK.

good talk.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

But there is no scripture in the Bible that says “Jesus is God the Son”. Instead we have for example this:

For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus,
1 Timothy 2:5

Should I believe Paul, or you?

I have showed you in the Scripture that Jesus is God, God the Son. Which you do not address. You simply go to another go-to Scripture that you are used to using or got off an internet list.

I address the Scriptures that you use deceptively. So, Concerning (1 Tim. 2:5), great verse! I have never said there is not One God. There is. I agree. And, there is only One Mediator between God and Man. No problem there. And that man is Jesus Christ. I agree 100%.

I believe Paul, and I have said nothing that Paul would disagree with. You disagree with me and Paul.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[rosends]

And this leads to question, why it is said “the words of the covenant, the ten commandments”, if there is actually more commandments included in the covenant?

…He wrote on the tablets the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.
Exodus 34:27-28

27 reads
The Lord said to Moses: "Inscribe these words for yourself, for according to these words I have formed a covenant with you and with Israel."

Verse 27 is God telling Moses to write down all the words in his book. That is, Moses writes down ALL the laws in the book/Torah. Then in the next verse, God inscribes the ten statements which are made according to the terms of all the other laws. -- "for according to these words" -- this isn't saying that he wrote those words AS the covenant, but that the covenant was established according to all those words and these ten somehow constitute a set of terms for the covenant. The Hebrew reads כִּ֞י עַל־פִּ֣י | הַדְּבָרִ֣ים הָאֵ֗לֶּה כָּרַ֧תִּי אִתְּךָ֛ בְּרִ֖ית.

In the next verse, God writes "upon the tablets the terms of the Covenant, the Ten Statements" (the Malbim says that this would include all the other laws as were written on the first set of tablets, while other commentators limit the text on the 2nd tablets but say that all the laws were inscribed by God on the first tablets and others say that both had only the select grouping of statements).

You also might want to read this web page discussion https://torah.org/torah-portion/mikra-5769-yisro/ especially the section Roman numeral III.

For more information on the exact timeline and contents of the covenant, check out Nachmanides on Ex 24:1
Exodus 24:1

 

[1213]

I have showed you in the Scripture that Jesus is God, God the Son. Which you do not address. ...

The problem with that is, Bible doesn’t directly say “Jesus is God the son”. Bible says directly that there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus. I don’t see why I should rather believe some interpretation than direct words of the Bible.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

The problem with that is, Bible doesn’t directly say “Jesus is God the son”. Bible says directly that there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus. I don’t see why I should rather believe some interpretation than direct words of the Bible.

The Bible doesn't say 'directly' that Jesus Christ is not God the Son. You interpret 'indirectly'. Yet you require 'direct' statements to disprove you. You are just like atheist's and pagans. I showed you verses that declared Jesus is God. He is to be worshiped, and will be worshiped. And Jesus Christ never rejected any worship towards Him.

Believe whatever you want. But your belief cannot withstand the verses I gave you. Which is why you do not address them.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[1213]

…I showed you verses that declared Jesus is God. He is to be worshiped, and will be worshiped….

Sorry, I think you didn’t really do so. Bible clearly tells that there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus. But, because Jesus speaks in the name of God and represents God on earth, he can be called God on earth. It is the same as for example in this case:

He will be your spokesman to the people; and it will happen, that he will be to you a mouth, and you will be to him as God.
Ex. 4:16

I assume you don’t think Moses is the actual one and only true God, so why would you think so about Jesus, when the situation is basically the same?

… Which is why you do not address them…

I think I have done that in post 194.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

Sorry, I think you didn’t really do so. Bible clearly tells that there is only one true God that is greater than Jesus. But, because Jesus speaks in the name of God and represents God on earth, he can be called God on earth. It is the same as for example in this case:

He will be your spokesman to the people; and it will happen, that he will be to you a mouth, and you will be to him as God.
Ex. 4:16

I assume you don’t think Moses is the actual one and only true God, so why would you think so about Jesus, when the situation is basically the same?



I think I have done that in post 194.

Sorry, but I did do so. Yet you continue to ignore the verses.

The Bible says the Father is greater than the Son. That doesn't mean the Son is not God. Again, see (John 17:5)

I showed you that Jesus is to be worshiped. Yet it is only God who is worthy of worship. Thus Jesus is God. And Jesus never refused the worship being given Him. (Lu. 17:15-17) (Matt. 28:9-10)

Concerning (Ex. 4:15-16), that is a perfect example of a prophet of God. It is not an example of Jesus deity as God. Jesus was that 'great prophet' Moses spoke of in (Deut. 18:15). Jesus was both Man and God. He alone is Prophet, Priest, and King.

Jesus is different than Moses because, as I said, He is Prophet, Priest, and King. And He is God the Son.

No, you provided nothing in post # (194) other than " I think it should mean this or that". I showed you what it said. You come back with, 'But it should mean something different'.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[1213]

…That doesn't mean the Son is not God. Again, see (John 17:5)…

It says:
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.
John 17:5

That is not same as “Jesus is God”.

…I showed you that Jesus is to be worshiped. Yet it is only God who is worthy of worship. Thus Jesus is God. And Jesus never refused the worship being given Him. (Lu. 17:15-17) (Matt. 28:9-10)…

If those what you say mean that people worshiped Jesus as God and that Jesus is God because of that, then there are many other that are also God, because Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Solomon worshiped men or angels and even woman also similarly.

And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.
Gen. 23:12

Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and bowed and kissed him. They asked each other of their welfare, and they came into the tent.
Ex. 18:7

He said, No; but as prince of the host of Yahweh am I now come. Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said to him, What says my lord to his servant?
Jos 5:14

Bathsheba bowed, and did obeisance to the king. The king said, What would you?
1 Kings 1:16

Bathsheba therefore went to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. The king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself to her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a throne to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
1 Kings 2:19

Now after the death of Jehoiada came the princes of Judah, and made obeisance to the king. Then the king listened to them.
2 Chro. 24:17

Bible has many places where king is “worshiped” (obeisance = reverence = worship). It does not mean kings are God and that is why, if Jesus was similarly honored, because he is the King, it does not mean that he is then also God. That just is not working argument for the claim that Jesus is God.

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

It says:
Now, Father, glorify me with your own self with the glory which I had with you before the world existed.
John 17:5

That is not same as “Jesus is God”.



If those what you say mean that people worshiped Jesus as God and that Jesus is God because of that, then there are many other that are also God, because Abraham, Moses, Joshua and Solomon worshiped men or angels and even woman also similarly.

And Abraham bowed down himself before the people of the land.
Gen. 23:12

Moses went out to meet his father-in-law, and bowed and kissed him. They asked each other of their welfare, and they came into the tent.
Ex. 18:7

He said, No; but as prince of the host of Yahweh am I now come. Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said to him, What says my lord to his servant?
Jos 5:14

Bathsheba bowed, and did obeisance to the king. The king said, What would you?
1 Kings 1:16

Bathsheba therefore went to king Solomon, to speak to him for Adonijah. The king rose up to meet her, and bowed himself to her, and sat down on his throne, and caused a throne to be set for the king's mother; and she sat on his right hand.
1 Kings 2:19

Now after the death of Jehoiada came the princes of Judah, and made obeisance to the king. Then the king listened to them.
2 Chro. 24:17

Bible has many places where king is “worshiped” (obeisance = reverence = worship). It does not mean kings are God and that is why, if Jesus was similarly honored, because he is the King, it does not mean that he is then also God. That just is not working argument for the claim that Jesus is God.

If (John 17:5) doesn't mean that Jesus is God...what does it mean?

The point of the Scriptures I gave show that Jesus did not reject worship attributed to Him. And He was clear, that worship is to be directed to God alone. (Luke 4:8)

Concerning (Josh. 5:14) , the Captain of the LORD's host was none other than the Spirit of God personified. (Josh. 5:15) is proof as it says the same as (Ex. 3:5) who is God speaking to Moses.

Good-Ole-Rebel

 

[1213]

If (John 17:5) doesn't mean that Jesus is God...what does it mean?

That Jesus had glory with God before the world existed.

…The point of the Scriptures I gave show that Jesus did not reject worship attributed to Him. And He was clear, that worship is to be directed to God alone. (Luke 4:8)

Yes, no one should be worshiped as God but the one and only true God. Because Bible tells that many others have been “worshiped”, it seems to me that there are two meanings for “worship”, that what is for kings and appreciated people and that which is for the one and only true God.

…Concerning (Josh. 5:14) , the Captain of the LORD's host was none other than the Spirit of God personified (Josh. 5:15) ….

Please explain how do you get that from the Bible?

… is proof as it says the same as (Ex. 3:5) who is God speaking to Moses.

I think it is interesting that Bible tells it was angel of Yahweh that appeared to him in the flame of fire:

The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Ex. 3:2

 

[Good-Ole-Rebel]

That Jesus had glory with God before the world existed.



Yes, no one should be worshiped as God but the one and only true God. Because Bible tells that many others have been “worshiped”, it seems to me that there are two meanings for “worship”, that what is for kings and appreciated people and that which is for the one and only true God.



Please explain how do you get that from the Bible?



I think it is interesting that Bible tells it was angel of Yahweh that appeared to him in the flame of fire:

The angel of Yahweh appeared to him in a flame of fire out of the midst of a bush. He looked, and behold, the bush burned with fire, and the bush was not consumed.
Ex. 3:2

All you did is repeat the verse. Lame response on your part. The meaning is, Jesus was with God before the world was in existence, and experienced the glory of God because He, as the God the Son, was God. (John 17:5)

Oh. In other words you recognize that Jesus is worshiped as God. So now you must say there are two 'meanings' for worship. But (Matt. 28:9-10) and (Luke 17:15-17) are not about Jesus as a King.

I did show you how I got it from the Bible. Yet you offer no response. But you then say 'interesting'. Pay attention. Better yet, quit crawfishing.

Good-Ole-Rebel