That has nothing to do with entropy or any
other law of thermodynamics. Moreover,
complexity, however you measure such a
thing, isn't limited in an open system, ie,
energy passes into & out of the system.
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Energy and how it applies to how we understand life as physical beings
- Thread starter Balthazzar
- Start date
other law of thermodynamics. Moreover,
complexity, however you measure such a
thing, isn't limited in an open system, ie,
energy passes into & out of the system.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
In applied science, entropy is considered a state variable, meaning any given state of matter has a fixed amount of entropy. An open glass of water at 25C and 1 atmosphere of pressure has an entropy value of 188.8 Joules/(mole K). Energy may flow into and out of the glass of water but as long as we maintain this state, the entropy will stay constant at this measurable value.
We can model this glass of water, at the atomic level with statistical and quantum assumptions. The state nature of entropy implies that the sum of all this randomly modeled complexity will always adds to a constant. We can have constant fluctuations, all the way down to the quantum level, but it always adds to a constant entropy value. The state makes the apparent randomness a constant. Energy can alter one part of the water in the glass at steady state but the state will balance this out elsewhere; release energy.
The way energy and entropy are connected is via the term -TS, where T is temperature and S is entropy. As entropy S increases, the minus sign causes the free energy to decrease. The natural forward drive of the second law, by increasing the entropy of the universe, decreases the free energy of the universe. Energy is conserved, but it is no longer free energy. It becomes built into the quantum uncertainty within that new constant entropy state.
The second law implies the universe is bleeding free energy into ever increasing entropy, with each state like a container for the informational quantum energy that describes that state. We can reverse entropy by changing the state back to a lower entropy value. This will release the lost energy. This is not a natural path due to the second law but it can occur if we use energy to release the lost energy. Since there is no perpetual motion the act of retrieving the lost energy can satisfy the second law; higher total entropy. Life take advantage of using lower entropy to increased total entropy, such as single handed helixes releases lost energy, to lower the entropy, but this takes energy, and allows the entropy to increase; entropic potential.
Entropy is interesting in that like gravity is goes one way. Gravity always pulls us towards the center of mass. Entropy always wants to increase. With the EM force we can go to the plus or the minus. But entropy is more like gravity in that it has one natural direction.
Like gravity, we can use energy/work to lift a stone to create potential energy. Since the second law needs to increase; fall toward it center, we lift the entropic stone by lowering the entropy. Cells by lowering entropy; single handedness of helices, perfect packing of protein, segregating and concentrating ions, lifts the cell to higher potential. The second law becomes more active, with the lost energy going into cell wide quantum entanglements; tangled states. Evolution satisfies the second law in that it leads to higher entropic states where quantum entanglements are optimized. This is is only random on the surface since that needs to add to a constant; mutations balance others things out.
In the real world, open systems may change.
Entropy is no impediment to life forming or existing.
I had perfect scores in every test in a couple engineering
courses on thermodynamics. (Among my favorite courses.
The subject & I just clicked.)
But now, I'm lucky to just speel it corecklty. Nonetheless,
tis easy to recognize basic errors by creationists, who
misunderstand concepts of entropy, open systems, &
complexity.
Earth had a bountiful supply of available energy, eg,
Sunlight, chemical, geothermal. Precursors to life
have already been experimentally shown to self
assemble. Thermodynamic arguments are irrelevant.
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The act of self replication and cellular division are both based on the 2nd law and increasing entropy. Two daughter cells will generate more entropy than one. Once a daughter cell separates, the chromosomes are unpacked into a state of higher complexity; differentiation.
When we go from monomers to the polymers of life, we are lowering the entropy, since all the monomers contain more decreases of freedom. Monomers can diffuse and vibrate in independent ways. Once they polymerize they become more restricted and interdependent. Built into life polymers is an entropic potential, since the 2nd law was reversed going from monomers to polymers.
Once we also do away with equal parts of left and right hand helices, we further reduce complexity, adding even more entropic potential.
What you may not understand about entropic potential, is for entropy to increase; 2nd law, energy needs to be absorbed. ATP is used by cells. The -TS terms means for entropy to increase energy has to fall.
Picture a chemical moving up an energy hill. Adding energy will push it up the energy hill. Entropy, on the other hand, pulls the object up the hill, by needing energy to increase, which has to increase due to the second law. For entropy to increase it need to absorb energy. In this case, the entropic potential forces a reaction to happen, to get the energy needed to increase the entropy; pulling.
One may not see the difference, since both involve energy and photons. The difference is one aspect of the energy involves enthalpy; push, and the other aspect involves entropy; pull; G=H (push)-TS(pull).
Let me give an experiment you can do at home so you can see this. It is very enlightening. Take a rubber band and stretch it. Wait a few seconds then place it to your lips. Now let the rubber band go back to the rest position. You will feel the rubber band get cold. The cold is due to the increase in entropy as the rubber polymers relaxes. The cold is due to the entropy increasing pulling heat energy away from the rubber band and then your lips; endothermic affect. The entropy is leading the energy transfer by absorbing energy and getting cold.
Next take the rubber band, put it to your lips, and stretch. Now you will feel it get hotter as entropy lowers due to the rubber polymers being forced to skinny and align into order. Now we have an entropic potential built into the stretch, since energy was released. This can be used to pull energy from your lips, on demand. Lips are very sensitive to heat changes allowing us to feel the workings of entropy.
With life we get this push and pull. There is leverage in so much built in entropic potential.
Note: Rubber bands are polymers that are cross linked with sulfur bridges. When relaxed, the polymer molecules vibrate while all connected to each other. When we stretch them and the diameter gets thinner, there is less room for radial vibrations; lower complexity or lower entropy; exothermic release. There is less need for more degrees of freedom, so that energy is released. To increase the entropy via the 2ns law, we need to absorb energy; cools due to the lost energy going into the higher entropy. The molecules now have more energy within radial freedom.
What is your definition of "complexity",
& how is it measured?
You're still treating all biological chemistry as a closed system.
The Earth is an open system, so that available energy is
continually supplied to life & pre-life. Entropy levels of any
open system don't prevent continued reactions.
This is really really basic stuff.
I recommend reading a thermodynamics textbook,
& doing the assignments. You might like Sonntag
& Van Wyland's book....they even have a short
chapter on why there must be a god. (It's based
upon heat death of the universe being unacceptable.
The rest is an excellent treatment of both classical
& statistical thermodynamics.)
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
One of my favorite examples of entropic potential being used by life is osmosis. In osmosis, two chambers are separated by a semi-permeable membrane. This only allow water to freely diffuse with ions restricted by the membrane. One side starts with pure water and the other side is salt and water.
If there was no membrane, the pure water and salt water would try to mix, driven by the second law. But with the semi-permeable membrane, water has to do the work for both the water and the ions. We added an entropic potential to the water, since it is the only thing that can move across the membrane.
What happens is the 2nd law will cause water to flow from the pure water side to the side with the ions. The goal is to increase the entropy of the entire system by mixing pure water with the ions, with water having the whole burden; water has the entire entropic potential. The entropy push is strong enough to create a pressure head; entropic force, that can push against gravity.
At steady state the water migration is balanced on each side of the member, but one side has this pressure head, yet the membrane does not push in. Entropic potential balances the induce gravitational potential of the pressure head.
Nature can use entropy and membranes to run a work cycle. It can segregate ions and control membrane permeability to regulate the entropic potential of the water.
The rubber band trick is more connected to the entropic potential of polymers and water packing, while osmosis is more connected to entropic potential of the water.
If there was no membrane, the pure water and salt water would try to mix, driven by the second law. But with the semi-permeable membrane, water has to do the work for both the water and the ions. We added an entropic potential to the water, since it is the only thing that can move across the membrane.
What happens is the 2nd law will cause water to flow from the pure water side to the side with the ions. The goal is to increase the entropy of the entire system by mixing pure water with the ions, with water having the whole burden; water has the entire entropic potential. The entropy push is strong enough to create a pressure head; entropic force, that can push against gravity.
At steady state the water migration is balanced on each side of the member, but one side has this pressure head, yet the membrane does not push in. Entropic potential balances the induce gravitational potential of the pressure head.
Nature can use entropy and membranes to run a work cycle. It can segregate ions and control membrane permeability to regulate the entropic potential of the water.
The rubber band trick is more connected to the entropic potential of polymers and water packing, while osmosis is more connected to entropic potential of the water.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
What is your definition of "complexity",
& how is it measured?
You're still treating all biological chemistry as a closed system.
The Earth is an open system, so that available energy is
continually supplied to life & pre-life. Entropy levels of any
open system don't prevent continued reactions.
This is really really basic stuff.
I recommend reading a thermodynamics textbook,
& doing the assignments. You might like Sonntag
& Van Wyland's book....they even have a short
chapter on why there must be a god. (It's based
upon heat death of the universe being unacceptable.
The rest is an excellent treatment of both classical
& statistical thermodynamics.)
I understand entropy and have taken the concept to a new level. You will not find the term "entropic potential" in any textbook. Entropy is assumed to be more like an after affect connected to heat and energy. The current understanding does not see entropy as something than can lead. This is where we differ. The rubber band experiment and osmosis are demonstrations of entropy leading. Life takes advantage of this to get more bang for its energy buck.
When neuron expend 90% of their metabolic energy pumping, exchanging, segregating and concentrating ions ,they are lowering the ionic entropy thereby setting a potential to extract energy via the 2nd law. This is action is at the top of its energy budget; 90%. Think in terms of entropic potential that has legs and teeth and is not just a waste byproduct of enthalpy and energy. That textbook is obsolete. It is still assume random leads even though entropic states have fixed entropy and cause randomness to add to a constant.
If the 2nd law states that the entropy of the universe has to increase, what is driving this? With gravity objects have to fall to the earth and cannot just do the opposite on their own. Gravity has a sense of direction toward center of gravity. With entropy this direction connected to the direction of time; has to increase as a function of time.
JDMS
Academic Workhorse
So... you're just making things up then. Lovely.
You should publish your genius and spread it everywhere to get rid of all these obsolete ideas about entropy. Change the world.
I don't think you understand it at all.
You just wield some of the terminology.
Without understanding the basics of
open vs closed systems, it's impossible
to discuss it.
Again, I recommend the textbook to
understand how it actually works.
BTW, the classical thermodynamics
portion is easier & more useful than
statistical thermodynamics.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
Could you explain why the entropy of the universe has to increase? This is what the second states, but why does entropy have to increase? What is the end game in terms of the movement toward increasing entropy? Gravity attract matter with that gathering causing space-time to contract and pressures to build which causes matter to change phases. What is the end game connected to the entropy of the universe increasing?
In the free enemy formula G-H-TS, since entropy S has to increase doesn't that mean that the free energy of the universe has to decrease because entropy has to increase? If the universe is bleeding free energy because entropy has to increase, where does it go? Does energy conservation and the second law, combined, imply that the free energy becomes conserved but is trapped by the forward movement of entropy?
Why is the living state a large source of increasing entropy, compared to inanimate objects like rocks? Why do neurons expend 90% of their metabolic energy lowering the entropy of sodium and potassium ions and how is this entropy change connected to consciousness, since the reversal or the firing of neurons; 2nd law, is how the brain works?
The conservation of energy states that energy cannot be destroyed but rather energy can change form, so why does entropy have to increase rather than just be conserved like energy?
In the free energy equation, free energy is connected to entropy by the term -TS, where T is temperature and S is entropy. Entropy is not energy but is energy divided by temperature.
At absolute zero; T=0 there is no free energy change due to entropy, however entropy is not zero, since there is still a vibrational energy level that exists at absolute zero; state of constant entropy. How is this state preserved even without temperature? Is it separate from energy?
What I found is the textbook and classic treatment of the subject needed an update to answer these questions. Prestige is not enough to deal with these basic questions, nor is a black box approach rational enough to deal with the determinism of the 2nd law; has to increase.
In the free enemy formula G-H-TS, since entropy S has to increase doesn't that mean that the free energy of the universe has to decrease because entropy has to increase? If the universe is bleeding free energy because entropy has to increase, where does it go? Does energy conservation and the second law, combined, imply that the free energy becomes conserved but is trapped by the forward movement of entropy?
Why is the living state a large source of increasing entropy, compared to inanimate objects like rocks? Why do neurons expend 90% of their metabolic energy lowering the entropy of sodium and potassium ions and how is this entropy change connected to consciousness, since the reversal or the firing of neurons; 2nd law, is how the brain works?
The conservation of energy states that energy cannot be destroyed but rather energy can change form, so why does entropy have to increase rather than just be conserved like energy?
In the free energy equation, free energy is connected to entropy by the term -TS, where T is temperature and S is entropy. Entropy is not energy but is energy divided by temperature.
At absolute zero; T=0 there is no free energy change due to entropy, however entropy is not zero, since there is still a vibrational energy level that exists at absolute zero; state of constant entropy. How is this state preserved even without temperature? Is it separate from energy?
What I found is the textbook and classic treatment of the subject needed an update to answer these questions. Prestige is not enough to deal with these basic questions, nor is a black box approach rational enough to deal with the determinism of the 2nd law; has to increase.
wellwisher
Well-Known Member
The Entropic Potential in Action
Neurons expend nearly 90% of their metabolic energy pumping and exchanging sodium and potassium ions. The end result will be sodium cations concentrating outside the membrane and potassium cations concentrating on the inside of the membrane? What is the end goal behind this, since it uses so much of the neuron's energy budget? It must be of primary importance.
What is happening can be better understood with an analogy. Say I had a glass of water into which I dissolved a small amount of salt. Next I dissolve a small amount of sugar, until both are fully dissolved. The second law will attempt to form a a uniform solution. If I stir the glass, I can add some kinetic energy to speed up the movement of increasing entropy, to its final steady state; uniform solution.
What the ion pumping and ion exchange is doing would be analogous to suddenly seeing the salt and sugar separating out of the uniform solution into piles on the opposite sides of the glass. This is not natural nor is it spontaneously possible, due to the 2nd law. It tells us that energy is being added to a type of mechanism; machine, that is reversing the 2nd law, back to an earlier time; before we added the salt and sugar to the water. This allows the neuron to reset the entropic clock; salt and sugar dissolving again, so entropy can increase via the 2nd law's spontaneous direction. The goal is to harness this potential we created within the 2nd law. We know it will redissolve, so let us tap into this free energy change.
The neuron adds a spin to this so it can better harness the entropic potential that the energy intensive separation of these two ions is creating. The cations are placed on opposite sides of the neuron membrane, which is designed to be semi-permeable. It is fully permeable to water, but not very permeable to the two ions. The water bridge allows the two ions to feel like this as an open system, in spite of the membrane. They will both attempt to push through the membrane to balance the ions on each side, but the membrane inhibits free flow.
Potassium ions are chaotropic meaning they create less order in water than water creates for itself. While sodium ions are kosmotropic meaning they create more order in water than water creates for itself. The result is potassium ions end up with less structured hydration spheres; chaotropic, compared to the sodium ions. This makes the potassium-hydration complexes somewhat skinnier, and able to better penetrate the membrane to help reduce their part of entropic potential.
Both the sodium and potassium ions see the entropic potential, due to continuity of the water, and both seek to switch sides to balance the ions; 2nd law, but this is inhibited by the membrane. The chaotropic nature of the potassium ions allows these ions to flow through the membrane, more often. The outside of the membrane ends up with more positive charges; Na+ and some K+, and the inside has even less positive changes; just less K+, due to the entropic potential and chaotropic nature of the potassium.
At steady state, this is called the membrane potential. On paper, it looks like positive and negative charges have separated to get as voltage, but is is actually caused by the movement of the positive charge of K+, in one direction, induced by the entropic potential; concentration gradient. The membrane potential will build up until it balances the entropic potential of the remaining potassium ions. This stops the flow of potassium. The neuron is ready to fire.
Since we now have more cations on the outside, while still having most of the entropic potential remaining; the water will now attempt to lower the excess ionic potential on the outside via osmosis. This helps the neuron push out axons and dendrites. Entropic potential is being harnessed to set up the neuron for success. The subtle difference between sodium and potassium ions in water makes this possible by creating a modified semi-permeable membrane affect, that converts entropic potential into EM potential, as well as osmotic pressure for work.
In current thinking, we see the membrane potential, neurons firing, and ionic current moving about. All this activity starts at the 90% expenditure of energy, into entropic potential. Science comes into this in the middle, where it appears more random than it is.
The brain also generates neurotransmitters which are chemicals that can alter the permeability of the membrane. This allows the brain to dial in the level of entropic potential. Entropic potential is the foundation of consciousness. It taps into a source of retrievable entropic free energy, that can connect to the EM energy streams and get them to align and integrate with the direction of the 2nd law; has to increase.
Entropic states and the 2nd law brings us into the world of quantum mechanics and quantum entanglements where separated things in space and time can coordinate; entire brain with consciousness. It also allows cells to entangle changes on the DNA with interactions with the environment. If you ignore entropic potential, one cannot reach this conclusion, since entropic potential allows entangled states to form.
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wellwisher
Well-Known Member
How water conducts the entropic potential within the Living state.
Nature has ways to reverse the 2nd law; cationic pumping, and then take advantage of the free energy increase; entropic potential created. Water is the medium of choice by nature, that is used to conduct and help distribute the entropic potential to the organic materials.
To understand how this works we need to first look at the three common phases of matter; gas, liquid and solid. Water is the only natural material on earth that shows all three phases at any given time; polar ice caps, oceans and clouds. CO2 is only a gas at natural earth conditions. Water has much more control over climate, through the balancing impact of the differences in the three phases and its huge volume.
Gases will exhibit pressure, but they do not exhibit tension. We measure gases based on their partial pressure. Gases, by definition, have sufficient kinetic energy not to stick together; push only. Solids can show both pressure and tension; push and pull, but not at the same time and form a steady state. We can push and pull a car, but it will move or rotate.
Liquids are unique in that they can show both pressure and tension, at the same time and still reach a steady state. For example a glass of water will see surface tension while being also pushed by atmospheric pressure. The liquid is being pushed and stretched but still forms a steady state.
This liquid state paradox, within water in particular, is connected to the hydrogen bonding of water. Hydrogen bonds, between the hydrogen and oxygen of different water molecules are like little switches, than can switch between two bonding states; polar and covalent hydrogen bonding.
The polar side of the switch makes the water denser and it has higher entropy and enthalpy, while the covalent side of the switch makes water less dense and has lower entropy and enthalpy. Water can show tension and pressure at the same time, by simply distributing the conflicting potential between its two switch settings, right down to single water molecules. In the same token, water can conduct the entropic potential via the gradients caused by different switch settings induce by different biomaterials.
Water is not the only molecule that forms hydrogen bonds, but it is unique in that this small molecule can form up to four hydrogen bonds. In a loose sense, it is similar to carbon which can form four bonds. The difference is carbon forms four study covalent bonds, while water is more fluid, switching between polar and covalent bonding, allowing water to conduct information and entropic potential to organic surfaces.
Since the two settings of the hydrogen bonding switches make the water larger; covalent, or smaller; polar, and these have different free energy values; entropic and enthalpy values, the movement of the entropic potential, by flipping the switches, converts some of the entropic potential into aqueous muscle to the push or pull the organic targets. Liquid water is a tight place and changes in molecular volume near organics, as the switches flip, will apply pressure or add tension to the organics. While changes in free energy; enthalpy and entropy, can help with catalysis.