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Enough Time for Evolution?

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
The issue is about what he says about increments.

I discussed that in my previous post.

Shermana said:
And I have yet to see any evidence that Jones looked at the evidence Minnich provided.

Judge Jones certainly listened to Scott Minnich. Judge Jones is not a scientist. He has a Bachelor of Arts degree, and a law degree. Thus being the case, he placed great weight on the opinions of vast majority of scientists who reject intelligent design.

How are you in a position to judge whether or not common descent it true?

Is your interest in common descent merely scientific curiosity, or do you also have a religious agenda?

Do you believe that Christians who accept common descent are true Christians? If so, if it is reasonable for Christians to accept common descent, it is also reasonable for naturalists to accept it. If you want naturalists to become theists, you will not get anywhere at all opposing common descent since millions of Christians accept it, and since millions of Christians reject creationism, and intelligent design. If your main concern is opposing naturalism, in order to have a chance of getting anywhere, you need to oppose it without mentioning evolution since evolution does not have anything to do with the origin of life on earth, and since millions of Christians accept evolution.
 
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Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:

Yes, Judge Jones did listen to Scott Minnich, but he decided to go with the opinions of the vast majority of experts who oppose intelligent design. Why should Judge Jones have ruled in favor of the Dover school district? What makes intelligent design science? Judge Jones is not a scientist. Why should he have agreed with a relative handful of experts, many of whom accept the widely rejected global flood theory, and the young earth theory?

How well do you understand Ken Miller's article on the flagellum at The Flagellum Unspun?

Why won't you have an Internet debate with an expert in biology? If you did, how could laymen adequately judge the debate?

In my post #382, I quoted your own source Dr. Stuart. Why didn't you reply to my post? I want to discuss what Dr. Stuart said. Why don't you? I will be happy to find lots of other things that he has said, and plenty of what I could find would show that he strongly supports common descent.

Your obvious intention was to try to make a case that since there is widespread disagreement among secular evolutionists about the mechanisms of common descent, that would be a good reason for people to be suspicious of it, but you will never get anywhere with that approach since as I showed in my post #382, there are many kinds of evidence that show that common descent is a virtual given.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Message to Shermana: Do you believe that Christians who accept common descent are true Christians? If so, if it is reasonable for Christians to accept common descent, it is also reasonable for naturalists to accept it. If you want naturalists to become theists, you will not get anywhere at all opposing common descent since millions of Christians accept it, and since millions of Christians reject creationism, and intelligent design. If your main concern is opposing naturalism, in order to have a chance of getting anywhere, you need to oppose it without mentioning evolution since evolution does not have anything to do with the origin of life on earth, and since millions of Christians accept evolution.

Please reply to my post #382. I quoted your own source Dr. Stuart, so you ought to be willing to discuss what he said.
 

InChrist

Free4ever
What does this have to do with Jews? You've lost me. I was talking about all the hundreds of millions of Christians who are not American fundamentalists. Anglicans, mormons, unitarians, protestants, catholics - a large proportion of the parishioners of every Christian church and the majority of the clergy does not take scripture to be literally true, especially at university level. The bizarre literalist cults you have in the US are very much the exception to the general rule. That brand of religious belief is most popular with people with little education - people who did not even finish high school. It cannot easily survive a university level education.

At least fundamental Christian creationists are consistent in their faith in the scriptures rather than compromising as do all those hundreds of millions of Christians you are talking about who incorporate theistic evolution into their thinking. Even stanch adherents of evolution such as Richard Dawkins sees the inconsistency of theistic evolution.


[youtube]BAbpfn9QgGA[/youtube]

So I would say it is more a matter of integrity than education. I know people from all walks of life and levels of education who take the Genesis account literally, including those who have college or university degrees, such as: a former evolutionary biologist, a molecular biologist, a mechanical engineer, a book editor, a couple of nurses, a few physicians, and several elementary through college teachers.
 

outhouse

Atheistically
So I would say it is more a matter of integrity than education.


A few does not represent the majority.



I know people from all walks of life and levels of education who take the Genesis account literally, including those who have college or university degrees, such as: a former evolutionary biologist, a molecular biologist, a mechanical engineer, a book editor, a couple of nurses, a few physicians, and several elementary through college teachers.

Don't you think this is very sad?
 

Shermana

Heretic
I assume that your intent is to claim that since there is such widespread disagreement among evolutionists, creationists should be suspicious. If that is your intent

No my intent is to show that the concept of incremental changes in direct relation to the subject matter of the Review is bogus.

Yes, Judge Jones did listen to Scott Minnich

"Nuh uh"

All responses will be based only on what is actually relevant to the OP from now on. If you'd like to discuss anything that's not directly related to the Review, go to "New Thread", click on it, and make your own new thread with a relevant subject.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
No my intent is to show that the concept of incremental changes in direct relation to the subject matter of the Review is bogus.

What do you hope to gain from that since even if Dr. Stuart is right, he knows that there is still tons of evidence that reasonably proves that common descent is true? If Dr. Stuart is not bothered by his own evidence as far as the acceptance of common descent is concerned, why should anyone else be bothered by it?

If you are not promoting creationism, what else could you possibly be promoting?

Do you believe that theistic evolutionists are true Christians? If so, then common descent should not matter to you since millions of theistic evolutionists accept it.

Let's use some simple logic here. Let's call the claim that common descent is true Proposition A, PA for short. Let's call the claim that incremental changes do not account for evolution Proposition B, PB for short. If PB is true, that by no means reasonably proves that PA is false since even if PB is true, lots of science adds significant support to PA.

Using similar logic, it can successfully be argued that even if creationism is true, that would not come anywhere near reasonably proving that a God inspired the Bible. Most skeptics would still be skeptics even if most scientists one day said that it is probable that a God exists. In addition, if that happened, none of the billions of non-Christians theists would accept Christianity since they already believe in God. So, you are working with a very, very small group of people in the world who have any chance of being influenced by anything that you say.

It is important to note that many if not the majority of people who reject Christianity do so primarily because of historical, philosophical, and moral issues, not scientific issues.

A Wikipedia article at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_descent give lots of evidence that supports common descent. Since much of the evidence is from different scientific disciplines, that means that common descent does not largely depend upon one or two disciplines, an example being incremental changes.

How are you in a position to judge the opinions of over 99'% of experts? Only a relative handful of experts accept creationism, and a good percentage of them accept the widely rejected global flood theory, and the young earth theory.

Would you like to present an academic paper against common descent for peer review to an academic journal?

Research has shown that some of the most likely people to accept creationism are women, people who have less education, and people who have lower incomes.
 
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Shermana

Heretic
Sigh.

If you're not going to stick to the direct issue at hand of the Review and OP and its relation to Mr. Newman's point, I'm going to ignore you.

Don't make me have to warn you again about Rule 4 violations, this is getting out of hand. No, excuse me it's been out of hand altogether for 36 pages now.
 
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Sculelos

Active Member
I'm of the opinion that Evolution is simply not possible as described in textbooks so I'd say no, there was definitely NOT enough time for even a single bacterium to form the RNA, DNA, mRNA and mtDNA by itself as it would be nearly physically impossible and a bacterium isn't really even considered a life-form.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Sculelos said:
I'm of the opinion that Evolution is simply not possible as described in textbooks so I'd say no, there was definitely NOT enough time for even a single bacterium to form the RNA, DNA, mRNA and mtDNA by itself as it would be nearly physically impossible and a bacterium isn't really even considered a life-form.

But "by itself" refers to the mechanisms of evolution, and evolution does not attempt to explain the mechanism of evolution. It only attempts to show that life has evolved. Simply stated, evolution does not address "why" some things happen, it only addresses "what" happens.

Evolution does not have anything at all to do with naturalism, or how life began on earth.

Millions of Christians are theistic evolutionists. They will tell you that God is not limited by time, and that he can do things as slowly, or quickly, as he chooses.

You can argue against naturalism if you wish, but evolution does not have anything to do with naturalism.
 

Agnostic75

Well-Known Member
Shermana said:
If you're not going to stick to the direct issue at hand of the Review and OP and its relation to Mr. Newman's point, I'm going to ignore you.

Don't make me have to warn you again about Rule 4 violations, this is getting out of hand. No, excuse me it's been out of hand altogether for 36 pages now.

But I have been on topic. You said that Dr. Stuart says that incremental changes do not account for evolution. That is definitely the topic that you want to discuss. My reply to that, and Dr. Stuart's as well, is "so what, it changes nothing regarding the probability that common descent is true?"

I am not at all disagreeing with Dr. Stuart, since he might be right. I am disagreeing with your implication that if incremental changes do not account for evolution, then creationism is probably true.

Incremental changes are the topic, and that is what I have discussed in this post.

You said that your motive was to show that incremental changes do not account for evolution, but that could not possibly be your only motive. If it was, your only interest would be scientific curiosity, and everyone knows that that is not the main reason why you want to discuss incremental changes.
 

Shermana

Heretic
My motive, however plain it may be, is not the issue here.

If your argument is that what Dr. Stewart Newman says about incremental changes doesn't affect the issue of the concepts we're discussing in the Review, then back up your case other than saying "Common Descent is still true".

We are discussing a very specific issue. If you're looking for ways to avoid discussing that very specific issue, feel free to be content to spectate.
 
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