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Entitlements?

Mathematician

Reason, and reason again
In a modern industrial society where all wealth originates from the complex infrastructure necessary for enforcing private ownership of property, I think that raising the bar for what qualifies as the "bottom rung" is not only necessary, but that anything else is exploitation... if not slavery.

So, I believe people have the right to
- An education.
- Basic health care.
- Basic housing.
- Sustenance
- Work
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
We can encourage people to act rationally and morally, but we cannot make a system expand forever, and nor can we solve socioeconomic defects that are inherent in a system. As a result, since I figure it is possible to make people moral and rational, socialism is the system we should strive for (a command economy could also theoretically work, but it is easier, in my opinion, for a large group of people to know their own needs than for a small group of people to understand the needs of each and every large group they are responsible for).
Thank you for your excellent response. Enjoy the frubal.
 

Penumbra

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of late, I have been wondering where people got the idea that they deserve different things. There is a distinct entitlement mentality that has crept into the realm of accepted thought and I am curious where that thinking originated and where it leads.

Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?
All of these questions must be considered in a context relative to what the goals and values of a society are. Does a given society value community, altruism, assistance, education, or not so much? Does a society consider itself as a whole wealthy, impoverished, or somewhere in between? Does a society view everyone as one, or as independent people that have no obligation to each other at all, or somewhere in between? Do individuals in the society understand how much of their own situation was not of their own control (geographic location of birth, genetic health of their body, natural intelligence, able body, decent parents, etc.)

In the universal sense, or the broadest perspective I can imagine, I don't think people "deserve" anything. People just deserve what the group has agreed to provide. Personally, I'd rather have happy, healthy, and educated neighbors that feel they all share a stake in their community than the opposite.

-As far as entitlements are concerned, I think people are entitled to what they have been offered and agreed to, or developed on their own. Many of the social systems that are called "entitlements" are called so because there was once an agreement. The agreement went something along the lines of, "You pay money every month, and in return, you'll have some assistance with retirement and health care." Therefore, if they paid the money, they are entitled to the other end of the bargain. When these entitlements are cut, or eliminated, then I think people have a reason to be bothered. So what a lot of it comes down to is that the group should not make promises or enter agreements that they cannot keep.

-I think it's impractical to ensure people have a job. But I think it's in the country's best interest to have laws or regulations in place that help develop a strong job market, and provide worker rights and protections.

-I don't think a society can consider itself wealthy if it feels it doesn't have enough resources to ensure everyone has adequate shelter. If they feel too impoverished to ensure that the smaller percentage of people that cannot otherwise afford it, have health care, then I feel bad for those people and that society.

-I don't think a society can consider itself wealthy if it cannot provide substantial health care services to everyone. If they feel too impoverished to ensure that the smaller percentage of people that cannot otherwise afford it, have shelter, then I feel bad for those people and that society.

-We'd have to agree on what a "living wage" is, but if people are working for a wage that cannot afford the very basics for themselves, then why are they working?

-I think it's in society's best interest to ensure that education is affordable and easy to access. I'd suggest that money should be provided based on merit. I don't think everyone should have money to get a doctorate (not everyone is capable or desiring of a doctorate). I think money should be available for those that have good grades to go to college. And of those that go to college and are interested in a master's or doctorate program, I think money should be available for those that excel.

-I believe people only have an obligation to help those around them if they choose that obligation for themselves. If someone views their own self as someone who doesn't care about others, or doesn't want to help them, then who is to say that's wrong? Or if they view their own self as lacking resources, or as too impoverished, to help others, then perhaps the only feeling to feel for them is pity, since they are lacking. However, humans are social animals, and got this far not by brute strength or by surviving alone individually in the wilderness; they got this far by building effective communities.

-I think a society that has one, smaller group that has exponential wealth growth that is protected by the highly effective commercial and legal framework that the government helps support, and that is taking up a larger and larger percentage of the total wealth pie, and one, larger group that is having their wealth reduced over time, I think it takes merely someone who understands mathematics, rather than an ethicist, to see the instability.

I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here
as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.
I propose a relatively free market tempered with significant social protection and community investment. The current systems that help support this level of wealth accumulation in the first place require significant legal (government) protection to function- property rights, shareholder rights, corporate laws, regulated recordkeeping, etc, plus the public money that went into things like developing the internet or the interstate highway system. I don't believe in providing protection just for those that have already benefited greatly from such things.
 
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Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

Use the post-keynesian employer of last resort model. The government would hire everyone willing and able to have a job.

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Yes, because shelter is a primary human need.

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Yes, because the right to live in inexorably linked to health.

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Yes. Commonsense. People should have enough to get by.

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Yes. Doctorates are typically free in the U.S. anyway. However, you still have to merit qualifying for a Ph.D.

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?

By the strength of our common endeavour we achieve more together than we do alone.
 

Darkness

Psychoanalyst/Marxist
Here's your chance. Convince me.

Beliefs just do not change like that. You either believe people have duties to one another or you do not. There is no objective morality. All morality is subjective. So, what do you believe? What is the greater injustice, taking money from a wealthy person and giving it to a sick and dying man, or letting the man die and allow the rich person to keep his or her money? You either believe the free-market is truly free or you view it as not much better than a system of anarchy for those without power. It's your choice. Nobody can truly convince you. You have to ask yourself what is liberty and freedom. I see socialism as true freedom; others see structured anarchy as true freedom.
 

lunamoth

Will to love
Beliefs just do not change like that. You either believe people have duties to one another or you do not. There is no objective morality. All morality is subjective. So, what do you believe? What is the greater injustice, taking money from a wealthy person and giving it to a sick and dying man, or letting the man die and allow the rich person to keep his or her money? You either believe the free-market is truly free or you view it as not much better than a system of anarchy for those without power. It's your choice. Nobody can truly convince you. You have to ask yourself what is liberty and freedom. I see socialism as true freedom; others see structured anarchy as true freedom.
You must spread some Frubals around before giving it to ...
 

LuisDantas

Aura of atheification
Premium Member
Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Heck, no. People do not even deserve to be born, much less have other people sweating to give them artificial "rights".

BUT...



Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?

Yes, actually it is, although very few people realize that.

We are bound to take care of our own safety and well-being. And once one realizes how much that depends on the safety and well-being of other people, the duty does indeed present itself rather clearly.

We may choose to avoid taking responsibility for others, but ultimately that is just a choice of trying to ignore the social pressures and unrest that will always exist and threaten to endanger our own support structures.



I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.

I don't have much of an issue with what I understand to be Capitalism, personally. But I think it is not even trying to be socially aware, much less wise or fair.

Ultimately, having some degree of social mentality and supporting the development of basic living conditions for everyone is too big a priority for one to rely on economic systems to deal with. It must be done quite independently of economic systems, at a local level if at all possible.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
I would like to thank most of you for your intelligent, sincere and wonderful replies. I remain deeply impressed by many of you. Thank you so much. There IS hope yet.
 

Viker

Your beloved eccentric Auntie Cristal
Of late, I have been wondering where people got the idea that they deserve different things. There is a distinct entitlement mentality that has crept into the realm of accepted thought and I am curious where that thinking originated and where it leads.

Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?

Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?

Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?


I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.

If people are paying for those things through their taxes. Then yes. Nothing is free. Even the notion of "free" health care is not real. I also believe I deserve military protection. If I am working, willing to work or can not work for reasons I can not control but am still willing I deserve better than just a pay stub and pat on the butt. What happens when I can no longer work with out something there to aid me in my final days? On the other hand, government intervention on many of the things you listed may not be necessary. I feel a great many corporations have become understanding and benevolent. It makes sense, a your work force is your most valuable asset. Why not take care of it? Why should any government always be a nanny?
 

Random

Well-Known Member
Huh, the guy on 'a paradise island' is wondering who deserves what. :rolleyes: He asks questions without even a cursory examination of the what the philosophy of 'deserts' in a hierarchical society actually means.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
Of late, I have been wondering where people got the idea that they deserve different things. There is a distinct entitlement mentality that has crept into the realm of accepted thought and I am curious where that thinking originated and where it leads.

Do people deserve to have a job? Is it a basic right? How would you create a system that ensures all able-bodied people had employment?
as a means to support oneself to stay alive in the current state of our society, yes.
why, because that is the way society works.


Do people deserve a home? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
if you mean owning a home...
no...this is definitely something that has been considered a right, but it is really a want
Do people deserve free medical, paid for proactively, through taxation? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
yes. there are no individuals that are more viable than others...

Do people deserve a "living wage"? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
yes because this would provide a means to help society as a whole...

Do people deserve a free education, up to and including, a doctorate? Is it a basic right? If not, why not? If so, why?
absolutely...no one is more viable than the next...
and materialism seems to be futile in the face of knowledge.
Do people have a responsibility to help those around them? Is it a basic obligation? If not, why not? Is so, why?
well this is an interesting question because it entails education and health care being supported through taxation. my opinion is that diseases do not discriminate, neither does ignorance...

in the end...we live in a society that cannot thrive if we do not help others for the greater good... survival.
if do not wish to live in society then good luck with that... ;)

I promise I won't be critical of what people may say here as I am genuinely interested in why people believe what they do and what kind of economic system/political system others think would serve mankind better than capitalism.

Here's your chance. Convince me.

lets go... :)
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
Huh, the guy on 'a paradise island' is wondering who deserves what. :rolleyes: He asks questions without even a cursory examination of the what the philosophy of 'deserts' in a hierarchical society actually means.
What strikes me is that I haven't said a word about what I think about any of these questions - and yet - a few of you have already decided what my position is and my intent for creating the thread. Forgive me, but I didn't realize that there were so many mind-readers on RF. That was a bit of an unexpected surprise.

I guess it never occurred to people that the object of this thread may have been to reaffirm why the things asked are so very important.

Again, I'd like to thank those who gave meaningful replies. Given the polarization of discussions these day, that gives me hope. At least all of you are not barking mad.
 

waitasec

Veteran Member
What strikes me is that I haven't said a word about what I think about any of these questions - and yet - a few of you have already decided what my position is and my intent for creating the thread. Forgive me, but I didn't realize that there were so many mind-readers on RF. That was a bit of an unexpected surprise.
to be fair you did say...
"convince me"
but i knew what you meant...

I guess it never occurred to people that the object of this thread may have been to reaffirm why the things asked are so very important.
these are important questions to ask...

Again, I'd like to thank those who gave meaningful replies. Given the polarization of discussions these day, that gives me hope. At least all of you are not barking mad.

you don't me....:D
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
What strikes me is that I haven't said a word about what I think about any of these questions - and yet - a few of you have already decided what my position is and my intent for creating the thread. Forgive me, but I didn't realize that there were so many mind-readers on RF. That was a bit of an unexpected surprise.

People generally make assumptions about certain words that are usually but not always there. From what I've observed, you have a reputation for being extremely conservative and partisan, and most people here are relatively politically active, so some people expect any thread inviting discussion to be bait for a regular dose of mocking and bickering. For example, to be honest, I was utterly shocked when you complimented me. It's simply not very common for people to genuinely want to converse civilly with their opposition.

It reminds me of when I first came to RF, and several people automatically assumed I was a troll because of the openness of my conversations. I quickly learned that I wasn't a person, I was just words on a screen.
 

YmirGF

Bodhisattva in Recovery
It's simply not very common for people to genuinely want to converse civilly with their opposition.
Thank you for understanding. Of late, I've gotten a bit weary of all the time wasted on labels. We never seem to talk about the ideas themselves, simply the policy positions of a given camp. I believe, with growing passion, that, as a race, we must move beyond this stage of bickering. For the most part, we have to start that evolution from the very place we are standing, in our own back yards.

I could just be showing my age, but it is my view that once we begin asking better questions, we just might, might, begin finding better answers.

I have decided that, over the next few days, I'll begin exploring my own thinking on each of the questions I asked. Hopefully that will stimulate some kind of meaningful dialogue, even if it leads to more than a few red faces.
 

T-Dawg

Self-appointed Lunatic
Thank you for understanding. Of late, I've gotten a bit weary of all the time wasted on labels. We never seem to talk about the ideas themselves, simply the policy positions of a given camp. I believe, with growing passion, that, as a race, we must move beyond this stage of bickering. For the most part, we have to start that evolution from the very place we are standing, in our own back yards.

I could just be showing my age, but it is my view that once we begin asking better questions, we just might, might, begin finding better answers.

I have decided that, over the next few days, I'll begin exploring my own thinking on each of the questions I asked. Hopefully that will stimulate some kind of meaningful dialogue, even if it leads to more than a few red faces.

Obama Not Sure How To Handle Compliment | The Onion - America's Finest News Source
During an appearance at a town hall meeting Monday to discuss the economic recovery, President Barack Obama reportedly seemed unsure how to respond to an earnest compliment from a man in attendance. "Now, hold on a second, let's consider the financial situation I inherited from my predecessor," a defensive Obama shot back before realizing local resident Bill Rhett's comment, "You're doing a fine job, Mr. President," was not intended to be sarcastic or denigrating in any way. "Oh, um, sorry. I mean…I mean thank you. Thank you for your support." White House sources said that in the days since receiving the compliment, the president has frequently stopped whatever he was doing, shaken his head in amazement, and smiled as he repeated the words "A fine job, Mr. President."
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
One deserves only that which they've worked for...the fruit of their own labor. I don't subscribe to a belief system where one is entitled to a job, entitled to financial security, entitled to anything. Survival requires hard efforts.

I'm not confident that a system to ensure that all able-bodied people had employment would fly, because not all able-bodied people are willing to work. Further, I don't understand why any business, government or other establishment should be obligated in any way to provide opportunity to anyone outside the auspices of what's needed to accomplish goals.

It would further justify apathy, in my opinion.



I believe that shelter is a basic need but not a basic right. I'm of the mindset that people should live according to their convictions, prioritizing their lives and work ethics so that they can provide for their needs.



The health care system in the US is a system of services to be rendered - a system of businesses. In order to receive medical care, I don't get bent out of shape that there is a price tag associated with medical services.

I don't feel that I have the right to medical care. I have the need for medical care, therefore I do what I must do to ensure that I have the insurance needed to cover medical expenses for my family.



I don't know what the hell a living wage is. Sounds fantastic. I doubt I'd qualify.



Overall, my answer remains the same. I think that people deserve the opportunities that they work towards. I believe that education is important. I have no qualms with public education, nor do I have qualms with private education.

I'm not sure that I'm comfortable stating that people have the right to education, though. And I think it's taken for granted too often.

Dawny wins the Smartest Girl Ever Award. I was going to respond eloquently to this OP, but she did it much better than I could!
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Heck, no. People do not even deserve to be born, much less have other people sweating to give them artificial "rights".

BUT...





Yes, actually it is, although very few people realize that.

We are bound to take care of our own safety and well-being. And once one realizes how much that depends on the safety and well-being of other people, the duty does indeed present itself rather clearly.

We may choose to avoid taking responsibility for others, but ultimately that is just a choice of trying to ignore the social pressures and unrest that will always exist and threaten to endanger our own support structures.





I don't have much of an issue with what I understand to be Capitalism, personally. But I think it is not even trying to be socially aware, much less wise or fair.

Ultimately, having some degree of social mentality and supporting the development of basic living conditions for everyone is too big a priority for one to rely on economic systems to deal with. It must be done quite independently of economic systems, at a local level if at all possible.


And Luis wins the Smartest Guy Ever Award.
 

Kathryn

It was on fire when I laid down on it.
Social Democracy only works in small, basically homogenous societies - where the participants share a common background, work ethic, experience, and goals. The more diverse a society, the less effective and more costly it becomes.

Do I WISH everyone had a job, a home, a living wage, healthcare and an education? Yes. Hell, I WISH everyone had a nice leather sofa in their living room, and a freezer full of steaks, and high speed internet.

But the unpleasant truth is that regardless of what you give some people, they refuse to handle it responsibly. Have you ever walked thru the projects and witnessed the absolute filth? Water to keep things clean is readily available - and yet the filth is amazing.

Food stamps can be used wisely or unwisely. They can be used to stock a kitchen - or sold for drugs.

A family can support and encourage a child through his "free" public school education, or they can erode into dysfunction so pronounced that they don't even know if that boy is even IN school on a daily basis.

I worked in staffing and HR long enough to see that no matter how much opportunity you give some people, they will squander it. A raise, a living wage, a benefits package only seems like oppression and difficulty to some who would prefer to remain perpetual victims.

Health care? That's a whole other story. I believe that our system needs complete revamping in that regard. I don't have an answer for that one.

But I do know this - even many people with excellent health insurance smoke and drink and eat too much.

Jesus said "The poor are always with us." Many people among us are simply never going to manage their lives well, no matter how much is given to them. It's a sad truth.
 
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