Errors in Bible translations...

[anders]

Whatever the nefilim were, they etymologically are "the fallen ones". If the TaNaK originally really wanted to describe "giants", we will never know. Anyway, the three occurrences of hannefilim in Gn 6:4 and Nu 13:33 are spelled and pointed in exactly the same way. Had there been nefilim as well as hannefilim, so what? Let's say nefilim means X. Using "X" (nefilim) or "the X" (hannefilim) should refer to the same X. I find nothing indicating that the pre- and post-Flood nefilim were different species, in spite of no explanation how they survived the Flood.

It can sometimes be helpful to use capitalization in transcriptions to indicate names, but you should all understand that many scripts, including the major Semitic ones, don't make a difference between upper-case and lower-case letters.

 

[t3gah]

New International Version

Definition for Jehovah
​

This definition is inside the chain-reference area of the NIV bible. Under the heading Israel they have a definition for Jehovah. The LORD.

 

[iris89]

Hi Everyone

Some make uninformed comments with respect Moses's being the scribe for most of the Pentatuch, the first five books of the Bible, but the renown Bible dictionary, Smith's Bible Dictionary says:

Pen'tateuch, The,

is the Greek name given to the five books commonly called the "five books of Moses." This title is derived from "pente",five, and "teucos") which, meaning originally "vessel" "instrument," etc., came In Alexandrine Greek to mean "book" hence the fivefold book. In the time of Ezra and Nehemiah it was called "the law of Moses," (Ezra 7:6) or "the book of the law of Moses," (Nehemiah 8:1) or simply "the book of Moses." (2 Chronicles 25:4; 35:12; Ezra 6:13; Nehemiah 13:1) This was beyond all reasonable doubt our existing Pentateuch. The book which was discovered the temple in the reign of Josiah, and which is entitled, (2 Chronicles 34:14) "a book of the law of Jehovah by the hand of Moses," was substantially, it would seem the same volume, though it may afterward have undergone some revision by Ezra. The present Jews usually called the whole by the name of Torah , i.e. "the Law," or Torath Mosheh "the Law of Moses." The division of the whole work into five parts was probably made by the Greek translators; for the titles of the several books are not of Hebrew but of Greek origin. The Hebrew names are merely taken from the first words of each book, and in the first instance only designated particular sections and not whole books. The MSS. of the Pentateuch form a single roll or volume, and are divided not into books but into the larger and smaller sections called Parshiyoth and Sedarim . The five books of the Pentateuch form a consecutive whole. The work, beginning with the record of creation end the history of the primitive world, passes on to deal more especially with the early history of the Jewish family, and finally concludes with Moses' last discourses and his death. Till the middle of the last century it was the general opinion of both Jews and Christians that the whole of the Pentateuch was written by Moses, with the exception of a few manifestly later additions,--such as the, 34th chapter of Deuteronomy, which gives the account of Moses death. The attempt to call in question the popular belief was made by Astruc, doctor and professor of medicine in the Royal College at Paris, and court physician to Louis XIV. He had observed that throughout the book of Genesis, and as far as the 6th chapter of Exodus, traces were to be found of two original documents, each characterized by a distinct use of the names of God; the one by the name Elohim, and the other by the name Jehovah. [GOD] Besides these two principal documents, he supposed Moses to have made use of ten others in the composition of the earlier part of his work. The path traced by Astruc has been followed by numerous German writers; but the various hypotheses which have been formed upon the subject cannot be presented in this work. It is sufficient here to state that there is evidence satisfactory that the main bulk of the Pentateuch, at any rate, was written by Moses, though the probably availed himself of existing documents in the composition of the earlier part of the work. Some detached portions would appear to be of later origin; and when we remember how entirely, during some periods of Jewish history, the law seems to have been forgotten, and again how necessary it would be after the seventy years of exile to explain some of its archaisms, and to add here and there short notes to make it more intelligible to the people, nothing can be more natural than to suppose that such later additions were made by Ezra and Nehemiah. To briefly sum up the results of our inquiry --

1. The book of Genesis rests chiefly on documents much earlier than the time of Moses though it was probably brought to very nearly its, present shape either by Moses himself or by one of the elders who acted under him.

2. The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers are to a great extent Mosaic. Besides those portions which are expressly declared to have been written by him other portions, and especially the legal sections, were, if not actually written, in all probability dictated by him.

3. Deuteronomy, excepting the concluding part, is entirely the work of Moses as it professes to be.

4. It is not probable that this was written before the three preceding books, because the legislation in Exodus and Leviticus, as being the more formal, is manifestly the earlier whilst Deuteronomy is the spiritual interpretation and application of the law. But the letter is always before the spirit; the thing before its interpretation.

5. The first composition of the Pentateuch as a whole could not have taken place till after the Israelites entered Cannan. It is probable that Joshua and the elders who were associated with him would provide for its formal arrangement, custody and transmission.[source - Smith's Bible Dictionary]

Gives the facts and clearly shows that he was the faithful divinely inspired scribe used by God (YHWH) to write most of the Pentateuch.

With respect the exact date of its writing and the exodus of the Jews from Egypt there is a degree of uncertainty ranging from 1,500 BC to about 1,400 BC. One source gives the date as 1,400 BC as follows:

The Date of the Exodus:
http://www.cresourcei.org/exodusdate.html

and,

Archaeology and the Book of Exodus: Exit From Egypt

http://www.ucgstp.org/lit/gn/gn009/archeol.html

and,

Discourse on the Bible:, The Only Book Inspired by God (YHWH)

http://examining-doctrines.com/forums/index.php?showtopic=157

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

Some make uninformed comments with respect Moses's being the scribe for most of the Pentatuch, the first five books of the Bible, ...

And iris89 continues to do so, repleat with that pathetically arrogant disdain for scholarship so typical of the more backward strains of fundamentalism.

..., but the renown Bible dictionary, Smith's Bible Dictionary says: ...

It is, indeed, a usefull reference, but in no way renowned for its scholarship in area such as archaeology or philology. It does, however, do one thing that should bring a smile to the lips of anyone familiar with the topic. While past fundamentalists held Mosaic authorship as absolute, what we see now is the slippery eqivocation typical of someone caught between dogma and reality. So, for example:

• "The book of Genesis ... was probably brought to very nearly its, present shape either by Moses himself or by one of the elders who acted under him."
• "The books of Exodus, Leviticus and Numbers are to a great extent Mosaic. ..., if not actually written, in all probability dictated by him."
• "Deuteronomy, excepting the concluding part, is entirely the work of Moses as it professes to be."

What's happened? Faced with a text peppered with awkward wording and anachronisms, our new fundamentalists are forced to argue a Moses-of-the-Gaps, i.e., the 5 Books of Moses were probably written by Moses except for those parts for which Mosaic authorship is too embarrassing to maintain. This is the born-again truth that our puffed up iris89 wishes to preach to the "uninformed" riffraff who dare to question her wisdom.

Gives the facts and clearly shows that he was the faithful divinely inspired scribe used by God (YHWH) to write most of the Pentateuch.

On the oft chance that this might be overlooked by the casual reader, note that she has offered no facts. She simply spews contempt for scholarship.

With respect the exact date of its writing and the exodus of the Jews from Egypt there is a degree of uncertainty ranging from 1,500 BC to about 1,400 BC. One source gives the date as 1,400 BC as follows: ...

Leaving aside that fact that there is zero evidence for the Exodus/Conquest, it is interesting that this self-proclaimed Biblical guru cannot even maintain a consistent position. Here, we are told, that the pivotal event in Jewish folklore occurred between 1500 and 1400 BCE. Yet, in her pretentious little "Discourse on Who and When The Bible Was Written and Who Was Its Author" she writes:

However, we well know not only who wrote the books of the Old Testament and the New Testament, but when they were written, and where they were written in most cases. Of course there are the misguided ones who even when presented with the evidence care not to read it, but keep up with their pseudo-knowledge criticism rather than learn, pretending to know that of which they lack knowledge about.

Now, following are all the books of the Old Testament with their name given first, then who was the main writer of the book [some few books having had very minor parts written by others], approximate time for the completion of the Bible book, and in most cases the location it was written at clearly showing those with their pseudo-knowledge do not know of what they speak. But then they are NOT interested in learning anyhow:

Genesis - Moses - 1513 B.C.E., written in the Wilderness.
Exodus - Moses - 1512 B.C.E., written in the Wilderness.
Leviticus - Moses - 1512 B.C.E., written in the Wilderness.
Numbers - Moses - 1473 B.C.E., either written in the Wilderness or Plains of Moab.
Deuteronomy - Moses - 1473 B.C.E., Plains of Moab.​

So, according to our pedantic princess of the Pentateuch, the first three books of the Torah were written before the Exodus.

Her sermons are every bit as intellectually bankrupt as they are arrogant.

 

[Dr. Nosophoros]

Here is a great resource for finding different passages in the Judeo Christian Bible from pretty much every version of their bible:

http://www.bible.gospelcom.net/

 

[Scuba Pete]

You know Deut,

As a truly "Born Again Christian" I find much truth in what you say. Sure, there is a lot of arrogance thrown in there as well, but you make it all so charming.

Many who profess to be Chritianity are hell bent on molding scriptures, history and etymology to fit their narrow definitions of "truth". Their minds are made up and are not about to start considering the facts for what they are; the TRUTH! This is understandable as it is obvious that many hold to Christianity as merely a form of spiritual "fire insurance".

But intellectual honesty is exceedingly rare for Christians and scholars alike, and very few "fundamentalists" really stick to the fundamentals of "faith, hope and love".

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As a truly "Born Again Christian" I find much truth in what you say.

Fortunately, I have a relatively large number of highly intelligent and intellectually honest Christian acquaintances. I am fully aware that folks like iris89 reflect a unique (and, in my opinion, uniquely repugnant) stance. It is for this reason that I try to use phrases such as "more backward strains of fundamentalism".

 

[iris89]

Hi Everyone

I am wrongly being accused of arrogance.

The fact is I quoted from one of the most respectable Bible dictionaryes, the Smith Bible Dictionary, but some do not like the reality of the factx thus shown. That is their problem and not mine. The foreword of the Encyclopedia Britannica says, "Although time undoubtedly enhanced the portrait of Moses, a basic picture emerges from the sources. Five times the narratives claim that Moses kept written records (Ex. 17:14; 24:4; 34:27–28; Num. 33:2; and Deut. 31:9, 24–26)." Of course some would also call that an arrogrant writing.

The Webster dictionary of 1913 says, "Pen"ta*teuch (?), n. [L. pentateuchus, Gr. ; (see Penta-) + a tool, implement, a book, akin to to prepare, make ready, and perh. to E. text. See Five, and Text.] The first five books of the Old Testament, collectively; -- called also the Law of Moses, Book of the Law of Moses, etc."



The 1911 edition of Encyclopedia Braitannica said, "

(R. I. P.)PENTATEUCH, the name found as early as in Tertullian and Origen corresponding to the Jewish ~ren mm imn (the five-fifths of the Torah, or Law), and applied to the first fivebooks of the Old Testament (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Num-bers, Deuteronomy). The several books were named by theJews from their initial words, though at least Leviticus,Numbers, and Deuteronomy had also titles resembling thosewe use, viz. ~~1i 1VTh7, D.flP~ I7~fl (As~eKw~ap, Origen, in Eus., H. E. Vi, 25), and nm rum, The Pentateuch, together with Joshua, Judges and Ruth, with which it is usuallyunited in Greek MSS., makes up the Octateuch; the Pentateuch and Joshua together "
have recently been named the Hexateuch.On the critical questions arising from the Pentateuch or Hexa-teuch, see BIBLE and the articles on the several books. - PENTECOST, a feast of the Jews, in its original meaning a harvest feast, as consisting of the first-fruits of human toil (Exod. xxiii. i 6), extending over the seven weeks which fairly correspond with the duration of the Canaanite harvest. Henceit was the closing feast of the harvest gladness.The agricultural character of this feast clearly reveals itsCanaanite origin (see HEBREW RELIGION). It does not, however, rank equal in importance with the other two agricultural festivalsof pre-exilian Israel, viz, the Mas..~Oth or feast of unleavened cakes (which marked the beginning of the corn-harvest), andthe Asiph ( "

From Easton Bible Dictionary, "


Pentateuch - the five-fold volume, consisting of the first five books of the Old Testament. This word does not occur in Scripture, nor is it certainly known when the roll was thus divided into five portions Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Probably that was done by the LXX. translators. Some modern critics speak of a Hexateuch, introducing the Book of Joshua as one of the group. But this book is of an entirely different character from the other books, and has a different author. It stands by itself as the first of a series of historical books beginning with the entrance of the Israelites into Canaan. (See <A href="http://www.ccel.org/pager.cgi?file=e/easton/ebd/ebd/T0002100.html&from=T0002114&up=e/easton/ebd/ebd.html">JOSHUA.)

The books composing the Pentateuch are properly but one book, the "Law of Moses," the "Book of the Law of Moses," the "Book of Moses," or, as the Jews designate it, the "Torah" or "Law." That in its present form it "proceeds from a single author is proved by its plan and aim, according to which its whole contents refer to the covenant concluded between Jehovah and his people, by the instrumentality of Moses, in such a way that everything before his time is perceived to be preparatory to this fact, and all the rest to be the development of it. Nevertheless, this unity has not been stamped upon it as a matter of necessity by the latest redactor: it has been there from the beginning, and is visible in the first plan and in the whole execution of the work.", Keil, Einl. i.d. A. T.

A certain school of critics have set themselves to reconstruct the books of the Old Testament. By a process of "scientific study" they have discovered that the so-called historical books of the Old Testament are not history at all, but a miscellaneous collection of stories, the inventions of many different writers, patched together by a variety of editors! As regards the Pentateuch, they are not ashamed to attribute fraud, and even conspiracy, to its authors, who sought to find acceptance to their work which was composed partly in the age of Josiah, and partly in that of Ezra and Nehemiah, by giving it out to be the work of Moses! This is not the place to enter into the details of this controversy. We may say frankly, however, that we have no faith in this "higher criticism." It degrades the books of the Old Testament below the level of fallible human writings, and the arguments on which its speculations are built are altogether untenable.

The evidences in favour of the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch are conclusive. We may thus state some of them briefly:

(1.) These books profess to have been written by Moses in the name of God (Ex. 17:14; 24:3, 4, 7; 32:7-10, 30-34; 34:27; Lev. 26:46; 27:34; Deut. 31:9, 24, 25).

(2.) This also is the uniform and persistent testimony of the Jews of all sects in all ages and countries (comp. Josh. 8:31, 32; 1 Kings 2:3; Jer. 7:22; Ezra 6:18; Neh. 8:1; Mal. 4:4; Matt. 22:24; Acts 15:21). (3.) Our Lord plainly taught the Mosaic authorship of these books (Matt. 5:17, 18; 19:8; 22:31, 32; 23:2; Mark 10:9; 12:26; Luke 16:31; 20:37; 24:26, 27, 44; John 3:14; 5:45, 46, 47; 6:32, 49; 7:19, 22). In the face of this fact, will any one venture to allege either that Christ was ignorant of the composition of the Bible, or that, knowing the true state of the case, he yet encouraged the people in the delusion they clung to? (4.) From the time of Joshua down to the time of Ezra there is, in the intermediate historical books, a constant reference to the Pentateuch as the "Book of the Law of Moses." This is a point of much importance, inasmuch as the critics deny that there is any such reference; and hence they deny the historical character of the Pentateuch. As regards the Passover, e.g., we find it frequently spoken of or alluded to in the historical books following the Pentateuch, showing that the "Law of Moses" was then certainly known. It was celebrated in the time of Joshua (Josh. 5:10, cf. 4:19), Hezekiah (2 Chr. 30), Josiah (2 Kings 23; 2 Chr. 35), and Zerubbabel (Ezra 6:19-22), and is referred to in such passages as 2 Kings 23:22; 2 Chr. 35:18; 1 Kings 9:25 ("three times in a year"); 2 Chr. 8:13. Similarly we might show frequent references to the Feast of Tabernacles and other Jewish institutions, although we do not admit that any valid argument can be drawn from the silence of Scripture in such a case. An examination of the following texts, 1 Kings 2:9; 2 Kings 14:6; 2 Chr. 23:18; 25:4; 34:14; Ezra 3:2; 7:6; Dan. 9:11, 13, will also plainly show that the "Law of Moses" was known during all these centuries. Granting that in the time of Moses there existed certain oral traditions or written records and documents which he was divinely led to make use of in his history, and that his writing was revised by inspired successors, this will fully account for certain peculiarities of expression which critics have called "anachronisms" and "contradictions," but in no way militates against the doctrine that Moses was the original author of the whole of the Pentateuch. It is not necessary for us to affirm that the whole is an original composition; but we affirm that the evidences clearly demonstrate that Moses was the author of those books which have come down to us bearing his name. The Pentateuch is certainly the basis and necessary preliminary of the whole of the Old Testament history and literature. (See DEUTERONOMY.) "



</I></I></B>

So it should be clear to all what the facts are with respect the first five books of the Bible given the above data from renown sources.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I am wrongly being accused of arrogance. The fact is I quoted from one of the most respectable Bible dictionaryes, the Smith Bible Dictionary, but some do not like the reality of the factx thus shown.

Sadly, you quoted no facts, only apologetics. Now, tell us again how Moses wrote Genesis over a decade before your earliest date for the Exodus. You're not simply arrogant. You're demonstrably incoherent.

 

[iris89]

Hi Everyone

One poster said,

Sadly, you quoted no facts, only apologetics. Now, tell us again how Moses wrote Genesis over a decade before your earliest date for the Exodus. You're not simply arrogant. You're demonstrably incoherent.

As can clearly be seen by my last post, this poster is completely in error as I have only quoted from renown reference works. This shows a good researcher and one who only uses good sources NOT as falsely claimed an arrogant person. Personal attacks and false accusations have no place on forms, period.............

If someone does not like to hear the facts and reality, they should not read my post, NOT make false accusations. The fact is that Moses wrote most of the Pentatuch or first five books of the Bible as a faithful scribe divinely inspired by God (YHWH) and this is recognized by all the respected reference and historical sources on the subject. Why any one is so vain as to take issue with this fact and what their hidden aggenda is I have no idea.

But let's look at more renown reference sources on the subject and put the matter to bed and get back on upbuilding things and a STOP to false accusations and name calling which is a form of intellectual dishonesty. Let's consider what the Torah is from an encyclopedia;

Torah, (&#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1492 is a Hebrew word meaning teaching, instruction, or especially Law. It primarily refers to the first section of the Tanakh, i.e. the first five books of the
These books are Genesis (Berei**** &#1489;&#1512;&#1488;&#1513;&#1497;&#1514, Exodus (Shemot &#1513;&#1502;&#1493;&#1514, Leviticus (Vayikra &#1493;&#1497;&#1511;&#1512;&#1488, Numbers (Bemidbar &#1489;&#1502;&#1491;&#1489;&#1512 and Deuteronomy (Devarim &#1491;&#1489;&#1512;&#1497;&#1501 . Collectively they are also known as the Pentateuch (Greek for "five containers", where containers presumably refers to the scroll cases in which books were being kept) or Hamisha Humshei Torah (&#1495;&#1502;&#1513;&#1492; &#1495;&#1493;&#1502;&#1513;&#1497; &#1514;&#1493;&#1512;&#1492 (Hebrew for "the five parts of the Torah", or just Humash &#1495;&#1493;&#1502;&#1513; "fifth" for short).
Jews also use the word Torah, in a wider sense, to refer to the entire spectrum of authoritative Jewish religious teachings throughout history. In this sense it might include the entire Tanakh, the Mishnah, the Talmud and the midrashic literature. In its widest sense, Jews use the word Torah to refer to any kind of teachings or philosophy.

Jewish view of the Torah

The Torah is the primary document of Judaism, being the source of the 613 mitzvot [&#1502;&#1510;&#1493;&#1493;&#1514;] and most of its ethical framework.

According to Jewish tradition, these books were given to Moses by God on Mount Sinai. This dictation included not only the "quotes" which appear in the text, but every word of the text itself, including phrases such as "And God spoke to Moses..."

The rabbis hold that not only are the words giving a Divine message, but indicate a far greater message that extends beyond them. Thus they hold that even as small a mark as a kotzo shel yod (&#1511;&#1493;&#1510;&#1493; &#1513;&#1500; &#1497;&#1493;&#1491, the serif of the Hebrew letter yod (&#1497, the smallest letter, was put there by God to teach scores of lessons. This is regardless of whether that yod appears in the phrase "I am the Lord thy God," or whether it appears in that oft repeated "And God spoke unto Moses saying." In a similar vein, Rabbi Akiva, who died in AD 135, is said to have learned a new law from every et (&#1488;&#1514 in the Torah (Talmud, tractate Pesachim 22b); the word et is meaningless by itself, and serves only to mark the accusative case. In other words, the Orthodox view is that "And God spoke unto Moses saying..." is no less important than the actual statement.

One kabbalistic interpretation is that the Torah constitutes one long name of God, and that it was broken up into words so that human minds can understand it. While this is effective since it accords with our human reason, it is not the only way that the text can be broken up. In that sense, the Torah is for Orthodox Jews that rush of letters and sounds that can mean so many different things.

There is little support for Bible criticism in Orthodox Judaism; the accepted Orthodox view is that the Torah was dictated to the letter to Moses, which is widely considered one of the Jewish principles of faith. Most religious authorities consider Bible criticism a form of heresy. Rabbinic commentators who took issue with the scientific approach are Rabbis Meir Leibush Malbim and David Zvi Hoffmann.

Christian view of the Torah

Christianity also believes that the Torah is the word of God; however most Christians do not necessarily hold that it was "dictated" to Moses all at once. Further, traditional Christianity holds that while the Torah's quotes from God should literally be understood as quotes from God Himself, the rest of the text is not a direct quote, but rather human words written by a prophet under divine inspiration. Thus the entire Torah is held to be a holy revelation, but not all of it is seen as a quote. The Christian belief that Jesus is both fully human and fully divine has a very close analogy in the traditional Christian view of Scripture.[source - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.]

As can clearly be seen, all credit Moses (Mosche) as being the primary writer of the Torah.

Now let's look at another well known reference source,

Torah - (tôr´

) [Heb.,=teachings or learning], Hebrew name for the five books of Moses—the Law of Moses or the Pentateuch, the first five books of the Bible. The Torah is believed by Orthodox Jews to have been handed down to Moses on Mt. Sinai and transmitted by him to the Jews. It laid down the fundamental laws of moral and physical conduct. The Torah begins with a description of the origin of the universe and ends on the word Israel, after the story of the death of Moses, just before the conquest of Canaan by the Israelites. In a wider sense the Torah includes all teachings of Judaism, the entire Hebrew Bible and the Talmud.[source - The Columbia Encyclopedia 2001, 6 th. edition]

As all can see I am not expressing an opinion, but dealing with facts as given in well known reference works. I am an independent researcher that digs out facts, NOT an arrogant person who thrust forth his opinions and the devil with the facts.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Scott1]

Iris,

Since you seem to hold in high regard Catholic writings...... so much so you quote in another thread evidence that your entire theology is backward, uninspired, unbiblical and misguided..... I thought another Catholic commentary on the subject of this thread might help you understand your errors:

The Pentateuch, which consists of the first five books of the Bible (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy), enjoys particular prestige among the Jews as the "Law," or "Torah," the concrete expression of God's will in their regard. It is more than a body of legal doctrine, even though such material occupies many chapters, for it contains the story of the formation of the People of God: Abraham and the Patriarchs, Moses and the oppressed Hebrews in Egypt, the birth of Israel in the Sinai covenant, the journey to the threshold of the Promised Land, and the "discourses" of Moses.

The grandeur of this historic sweep is the result of a careful and complex joining of several historic traditions, or sources. These are primarily four: the so-called Yahwist, Elohist, Priestly and Deuteronomic strands that run through the Pentateuch. (They are conveniently abbreviated as J, E, P and D.) Each brings to the Torah its own characteristics, its own theological viewpoint--a rich variety of interpretation that the sensitive reader will take pains to appreciate. A superficial difference between two of these sources is responsible for their names: the Yahwist prefers the name Yahweh (represented in translation as Lord) by which God revealed himself to Israel; the Elohist prefers the generic name for God, Elohim. The Yahwist is concrete, imaginative, using many anthropomorphisms in its theological approach, as seen, e.g., in the narrative of creation in Genesis 2, compared with the Priestly version in Genesis 1. The Elohist is more sober, moralistic. The Priestly strand, which emphasizes genealogies, is more severely theological in tone. The Deuteronomic approach is characterized by the intense hortatory style of Deuteronomy 5-11, and by certain principles from which it works, such as the centralization of worship in the Jerusalem temple.

However, even this analysis of the Pentateuch is an over-simplification , for it is not always possible to distinguish with certainty among the various sources. The fact is that each of these individual traditions incorporates much older material. The Yahwist was himself a collector and adapter. His narrative is made up of many disparate stories that have been reoriented, and given a meaning within the context in which they now stand; e.g., the story of Abraham and Isaac in Gen 22. Within the J and P traditions one has to reckon with many individual units; these had their own history and life-setting before they were brought together into the present more or less connected narrative.

This is not to deny the role of Moses in the development of the Pentateuch. It is true we do not conceive of him as the author of the books in the modern sense. But there is no reason to doubt that, in the events described in these traditions, he had a uniquely important role, especially as lawgiver. Even the later laws which have been added in P and D are presented as a Mosaic heritage. Moses is the lawgiver par excellence, and all later legislation is conceived in his spirit, and therefore attributed to him. Hence, the reader is not held to undeviating literalness in interpreting the words, "the LORD said to Moses." One must keep in mind that the Pentateuch is the crystallization of Israel's age-old relationship with God.

Introduction to the Pentateuch, New American Bible.

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

This is not to deny the role of Moses in the development of the Pentateuch. It is true we do not conceive of him as the author of the books in the modern sense. But there is no reason to doubt that, in the events described in these traditions, he had a uniquely important role, especially as lawgiver.

Introduction to the Pentateuch, New American Bible.

Given the absence of an Exodus/Conquest there is more than sufficient reason to doubt. But I am more curious about how one reconciles the above to the following ...

A detailed account of the opposition to the Mosaic authorship of the Pentateuch is neither desirable nor necessary in this article. In itself it would form only a noisome history of human errors; each little system has had its day, and its successors have tried their best to bury it in hushed oblivion. The actual difficulties we have to consider are those advanced by our actual opponents of to- day; only the fact that the systems of the past show us the fleeting and transitory character of the actual theories now in vogue can induce us to briefly enumerate the successive views upheld by the opponents of the Mosaic authorship.

Catholic Encyclopaedia: Pentateuch​

 

[iris89]

Hi SOGFPP

Your statement,

Since you seem to hold in high regard Catholic writings...... so much so you quote in another thread evidence that your entire theology is backward, uninspired, unbiblical and misguided..... I thought another Catholic commentary on the subject of this thread might help you understand your errors:

Is a misunderstanding as I do NOT hold Catholic theology in high regard, but consider it the most false of all the so called Christian groups. However, I do hold some Catholic researchers/scholars in high regard such as Jerome who almost became pope. Unfortunately he did not become pope or the Catholic church might actually be Christian today.

All items I posted on the Pentatuch were to show that the first five books of the Bible were primarily written and/or compilied by Moses as another poster was taking issue with this fact.

I only hold truth in high regard and reject all the untruths that the Catholic and Protestant Churches churn out. I do research to assist all in knowing the facts, the truth, in line with John 8:32, "and ye shall know the truth, and the truth shall make you free." (American Standard Version; ASV).

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

As all can see I am not expressing an opinion, but dealing with facts as given in well known reference works. I am an independent researcher that digs out facts, NOT an arrogant person who thrust forth his opinions and the devil with the facts.

Do you understand that (a) facts about how Jews view the Torah is different than (b) facts about the Torah? You offer nothing but arrogant opinion.

By the way, tell us again how your independent research convinced you that Moses authored Genesis at least a decade before the Exodus.

 

[iris89]

Hi Deut. 32.8

I have already posted the reference works with respect that. If you want information, go read what I have posted instead of asking meaningless questions.


Your Friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Jayhawker Soule]

I have already posted the reference works with respect that.

You quote the encyclopaedia, specifically:

• the Wikipedia on what is "according to Jewish tradition"
• the Wikipedia on what "Christianity also believes"
• the Columbia on what "is believed by Orthodox Jews"

Therefore?

If you want information, go read what I have posted instead of asking meaningless questions.

Pompously ridiculing the question impresses me little when it comes from SOGFPP, and even less when whimpered by you.

Your Friend in Christ Iris89

Not in the least.

 

[iris89]

Hi Deut. 32.8



I am only posting the facts, if you do not like facts, stick with comic books and novels.



If you do not like the renown sources I have already given you, try the Jewish Encyclopedia. It also gives Moses as the principle writer of the first five books of the Bible as follows:

Name applied to the five books of Moses, Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy. The contents of the Torah as a whole are discussed, from the point of view of modern Biblical criticism, under Pentateuch, where a table gives the various sources; while its importance as a center of crystallization for the Hebrew canon is treated under Bible Canon. The present article, therefore, is limited to the history of the Pentateuch in post-Biblical Judaism.

The Torah receives its title from its contents, the name itself connoting "doctrine." The Hellenistic Jews, however, translated it by ??µ?? = "law" (e.g., LXX., prologue to Ecclus. [Sirach], Philo, Josephus, and the New Testament), whence came the term "law-book"; this gave rise to the erroneous impression that the Jewish religion is purely nomistic, so that it is still frequently designated as the religion of law. In reality, however, the Torah contains teachings as well as laws, even the latter being given in ethical form and contained in historical narratives of an ethical character.



Name.



In the books of the Bible the following names of the Pentateuch occur: in II Chron. xvii. 9, Neh. ix. 3, and, with the added epithet , II Chron. xxxiv. 14; while alone, without , is found in II Kings x. 31, I Chron. xxii. 11, and II Chron. xii. 1, xxxi. 3, 4, and xxxv. 26. Sometimes , or a word of similar meaning, is added, as , Josh. xxiv. 26, Neh. viii. 18 (without , ib. x. 29). Another designation is , Josh. viii. 31, xxiii. 6; II Kings xiv. 6; Neh. viii. 1; or , I Kings ii. 3; II Kings xxiii. 25; Mal. iii. 22 (A. V. iv. 4), with the addition of ; Ezra iii. 2 (with the addition of ), vii. 6; , II Chron. xxv. 4 (preceded by ), xxxv. 12. The oldest name doubtless is (Deut. i. 5; xxxi. 9, 11, 24; xxxii. 46; Neh. viii. 2), sometimes shortened to (Deut. i. 5; xxxi. 9, 11, 24; xxxii. 46; Neh. viii. 2), or to (Neh. viii. 5), or to (Deut. xxxiii. 4). The last two names occur with great frequency in Jewish tradition, where the Torah becomes a living creature. The expression "the five books," which is the origin of the term "Pentateuch," occurs only in Jewish tradition, which has also been the source for "Genesis," etc., as the names of the books of the Pentateuch (see Blau, "Zur Einleitung in die Heilige Schrift," pp. 40-43).



Quinary Division of the Torah.



According to all critics, regardless of the schools to which they belong, the Torah forms a single work, which is represented, even at the present day, by the synagogal Scroll of the Law; nor does history know of any other Torah scroll. The fivefold division of the Pentateuch was due to purely external causes, and not to a diversity of content; for in volume the Torah forms more than a fourth of all the books of the Bible, and contains, in round numbers, 300,000 letters of the 1,100,000 in the entire Bible. A work of such compass far exceeded the normal size of an individual scroll among the Jews; and the Torah accordingly became a Pentateuch, thus being analogous to the Homeric poems, which originally formed a single epic, but which were later split into twenty-four parts each.



Division into Sections. Like them, moreover, the Pentateuch was divided according to the sense and with an admirable knowledge of the subject (Blau, "Althebräisches Buchwesen," pp. 47-49), while subdivisions were also made into the so-called open and closed "parashiyyot," whose exact interrelation is not yet clear. There are in all 669 sections, 290 open and 379 closed. Another class of parashiyyot divides the weekly lessons, now called "sidrot," into seven parts. The Torah also falls, on the basis of the lessons for the Sabbath, into 54 sidrot according to the annual cycle, and into 155 according to the triennial cycle. The former division, which is now used almost universally, is the Babylonian; and the latter, which has recently been introduced into some Reform congregations, is the Palestinian. The latter class of sidrot, however, has no external marks of division in the scrolls of the synagogue; while the divisions in the former, like the parashiyyot, are indicated by blank spaces of varying length (see Sidra). This probably implies a greater antiquity for the sections which are thus designated, although the divisions into 5,845 verses, which seem to be still older, have no outward marks. The system of chapters was introduced into the editions of the Hebrew Bible, and hence into the Torah, from the Vulgate. This mode of division is not known to the Masorah, though it was incorporated in the final Masoretic notes, for individual books of the Pentateuch. It is given in modern editions of the Hebrew Bible simply on the basis of the stereotyped editions of the English Bible Society, which followed earlier examples.

So get real and stop with the absurd stuff.



Your friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Scuba Pete]

So get real and stop with the absurd stuff.

You know, for someone who CLAIMS to know the truth, I just don't see ANY fruit consistent with that. Maybe you should try to incorporate your "beliefs" into your value system as well?

Galations 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, 23 gentleness and self-control. Against such things there is no law.

 

[iris89]

Hi NetDoc

Everything I post is related to beliefs taught in the Bible so please remove your blinders.


Your friend in Christ Iris89

 

[Scuba Pete]

Still looking for the love, patience and kindness bro! (That's in the Bible too!)