Errors in the Quran

[FearGod]

They agreed with the points I made.
If you can refute it with scripture be my guest.

You are saying that the quran shows the sky as a solid ceiling,then could you explain this verse to us.

Then He turned straight to the sky, while it was a smoke, and said to it and to the earth, :Come (to My obedience), both of you, willingly or unwillingly. Both said, :We come willingly.(41:11)

You may ask then,does the sky or the smoke has tongue to speak.
Aha,i got it,in the ancient time when they used to hear the sound of the thunder then they thought that the solid ceiling was speaking to God.


[youtube]5vWghnecKHk[/youtube]
Great Lightning Storm Loud Thunder & Heavy Rain St.louis 7/30/2011 - YouTube

 

[Sha'irullah]

I have just gotten into cosmology and noticed that the Qur'an may possibly state that the sun precedes the moon in proximity and places the moon amongst the stars

Qur'an Surat Nuh ayat 15 is what I am referring to but the translations differ. The Arabic portion does not make it any more clear either

 

[FearGod]

I have just gotten into cosmology and noticed that the Qur'an may possibly state that the sun precedes the moon in proximity and places the moon amongst the stars

Qur'an Surat Nuh ayat 15 is what I am referring to but the translations differ. The Arabic portion does not make it any more clear either

The verses don't mention the stars

See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,(71:15)
And has made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?(71:16)

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

You are saying that the quran shows the sky as a solid ceiling,then could you explain this verse to us.

Then He turned straight to the sky, while it was a smoke, and said to it and to the earth, :Come (to My obedience), both of you, willingly or unwillingly. Both said, :We come willingly.(41:11)

You may ask then,does the sky or the smoke has tongue to speak.
Aha,i got it,in the ancient time when they used to hear the sound of the thunder then they thought that the solid ceiling was speaking to God.


[youtube]5vWghnecKHk[/youtube]
Great Lightning Storm Loud Thunder & Heavy Rain St.louis 7/30/2011 - YouTube

The verse you mention is during the creation process.
I'm not sure what you say makes sense regarding the lightening.

People believed the sky was a canopy and a roof above earth.
The Koran says the same thing.
Then tells them don't turn away from this sign.

So I ask again:

So what canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

I have just gotten into cosmology and noticed that the Qur'an may possibly state that the sun precedes the moon in proximity and places the moon amongst the stars

Qur'an Surat Nuh ayat 15 is what I am referring to but the translations differ. The Arabic portion does not make it any more clear either

Are you talking about this verse?

071.015
YUSUFALI: "'See ye not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,

 

[FearGod]

The verse you mention is during the creation process.
I'm not sure what you say makes sense regarding the lightening.

People believed the sky was a canopy and a roof above earth.
The Koran says the same thing.
Then tells them don't turn away from this sign.

So I ask again:

So what canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

Then explain how the verse says that the sky was smoke and then you think that it was separated from the earth as solid and becomes a canopy.

Then He turned straight to the sky, while it was a smoke, and said to it and to the earth, :Come (to My obedience), both of you, willingly or unwillingly. Both said, :We come willingly.(41:11)

 

[Sha'irullah]

The verses don't mention the stars

See you not how Allah has created the seven heavens one above another,(71:15)
And has made the moon a light therein, and made the sun a lamp?(71:16)

Sorry I unquoted. I mean't to compared this verse to Surat Saffat ayat 6 which reads "Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars".

The issue is that it cannot be determined if it means the nearest unto Allah or the nearest unto man as the Qur'an promotes a geocentric view of earth and proposes that the heavens are boundaries for the skies of earth. Is it being implied that the moon is in the same heaven and field of that of the stars is essentially what I am asking.

 

[FearGod]

Sorry I unquoted. I mean't to compared this verse to Surat Saffat ayat 6 which reads "Verily! We have adorned the near heaven with the stars".

The issue is that it cannot be determined if it means the nearest unto Allah or the nearest unto man as the Qur'an promotes a geocentric view of earth and proposes that the heavens are boundaries for the skies of earth. Is it being implied that the moon is in the same heaven and field of that of the stars is essentially what I am asking.

So as God mentioned that the sun and moon is within the seven heavens while in another verse saying the stars is in the Dunya heaven,then where is the mistake.

Dunya is our universe and it is right to say that the stars are in the space of the universe.

Dunya (دني&#1575
The physical Universe, as opposed to the Hereafter.
Reference: Glossary

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

Then explain how the verse says that the sky was smoke and then you think that it was separated from the earth as solid and becomes a canopy.

Then He turned straight to the sky, while it was a smoke, and said to it and to the earth, :Come (to My obedience), both of you, willingly or unwillingly. Both said, :We come willingly.(41:11)

Maybe it wasn't solid initially or it maybe it was in smoke.
Either way the sky is solid as I've highlighted in the Koran, plus there are more verses that imply a solid sky.

Why don't you answer the question:

What canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

 

[FearGod]

Maybe it wasn't solid initially or it maybe it was in smoke.
Either way the sky is solid as I've highlighted in the Koran, plus there are more verses that imply a solid sky.

Why don't you answer the question:

What canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

But you aren't explaining the verse which says it was smoke.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

But you aren't explaining the verse which says it was smoke.

I've said the sky may not have been solid initially or it was in smoke during the creation process.
The sky was smoke(or in smoke) but not now.
Some translators use the vapour rather smoke, which I think makes more sense. As I mentioned earlier the Koran repeats the primordial ocean myth
from which everything was created from. As the Koran claims before creation Allah was over the waters.
Either way this was during the creation process.

What canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

 

[Assad91]

I never said they always agree on everything.
If they have a general agreement on something then they are unlikely to be wrong.

The scholars I mentioned are leading Islamic Scholars and the Hadiths I mentioned are considered authentic.

This thread is to discuss errors in the Koran, which to do so you must use scripture. If you're not willing to discuss scripture then you have no interest in the topic of this thread and I have nothing to say to you.

No, Ibn Kathir has only become reliable by Sunnis fairly recently in time.

And Bukhari and Muslim are only authentic to Sunnis.

Clearly you can't even understand the simple point I'm making, which is pretty clear. So how could you make a claim like the one you made?

 

[FearGod]

I've said the sky may not have been solid initially or it was in smoke during the creation process.
The sky was smoke(or in smoke) but not now.

What canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

What makes you to think that the quran shows the upper space (sky) as a solid roof,
anything over our heads is called sky,for example in one verse it says the birds fly in the sky,so does that mean the bird fly in the solid roof.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

What makes you to think that the quran shows the upper space (sky) as a solid roof,
anything over our heads is called sky,for example in one verse it says the birds fly in the sky,so does that mean the bird fly in the solid roof.

It's about context.
As I've said people believed the sky was solid back but they also thought that birds flew in the sky. Myths like these don't have perfect explanation, they are not always logical.
People back then must've considered the birds to be flying in the lower part of the sky.

I wasn't planning on showing any more verses as the ones I've mentioned are clear that the only sign they considered as a canopy/roof back then was a solid sky.

But lets look at verse 22:65

PICKTHAL: Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.

This verse asks disbelievers who believe in a solid sky don't you see how Allah is keeping the sky from falling on earth.
This is very clear and can only mean one thing.

Here is Ibn Kathir tafsir:

﴿وَيُمْسِكُ السَّمَآءَ أَن تَقَعَ عَلَى الاٌّرْضِ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ﴾

(He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His leave.) If He willed, He could give the sky permission to fall on the earth, and whoever is in it would be killed, but by His kindness, mercy and power, He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth, except by His leave.

 

[Sha'irullah]

So as God mentioned that the sun and moon is within the seven heavens while in another verse saying the stars is in the Dunya heaven,then where is the mistake.

Dunya is our universe and it is right to say that the stars are in the space of the universe.

Dunya (دني&#1575
The physical Universe, as opposed to the Hereafter.
Reference: Glossary

I understand Islamic terminology, I have been a Muslim for quite some time. What I want is scriptural reference because the Qur'an itself does not elaborate on the samaawat

 

[FearGod]

It's about context.
As I've said people believed the sky was solid back but they also thought that birds flew in the sky. Myths like these don't have perfect explanation, they are not always logical.
People back then must've considered the birds to be flying in the lower part of the sky.

And the lower part of the sky is still sky,why not to say the bird fly over earth,why to mention the lower part of the far sky while the bird is flying close to earth and belong to earth and not to sky.

I wasn't planning on showing any more verses as the ones I've mentioned are clear that the only sign they considered as a canopy/roof back then was a solid sky.

No it wasn't clear.

But lets look at verse 22:65

PICKTHAL: Hast thou not seen how Allah hath made all that is in the earth subservient unto you? And the ship runneth upon the sea by His command, and He holdeth back the heaven from falling on the earth unless by His leave. Lo! Allah is, for mankind, Full of Pity, Merciful.

This verse asks disbelievers who believe in a solid sky don't you see how Allah is keeping the sky from falling on earth.
This is very clear and can only mean one thing.

Here is Ibn Kathir tafsir:

﴿وَيُمْسِكُ السَّمَآءَ أَن تَقَعَ عَلَى الاٌّرْضِ إِلاَّ بِإِذْنِهِ﴾

(He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth except by His leave.) If He willed, He could give the sky permission to fall on the earth, and whoever is in it would be killed, but by His kindness, mercy and power, He withholds the heaven from falling on the earth, except by His leave.

What is space ?

Do you think the space is nothingness or it is a thing ?

The space itself is a construction and it expands and there is a force that hold the universe altogether,yes from falling down.

We can't see that force or even understand it but it do exist and what if this force failed and the space collapsed,do you think the planets,stars,galaxies will still be apart or will drop with the collapsing space or heaven.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

And the lower part of the sky is still sky,why not to say the bird fly over earth,why to mention the lower part of the far sky while the bird is flying close to earth and belong to earth and not to sky.

Like I said it's about context. People believed in the solid sky but they also thought that birds flew in the sky.
Just like the Koran says.

No it wasn't clear.

It was clear to those people who believed in a solid sky as it was a sign for them, so why isn't clear to you?

What is space ?

Do you think the space is nothingness or it is a thing ?

The space itself is a construction and it expands and there is a force that hold the universe altogether,yes from falling down.

We can't see that force or even understand it but it do exist and what if this force failed and the space collapsed,do you think the planets,stars,galaxies will still be apart or will drop with the collapsing space or heaven.

The Koran is asking disbelievers 'don't they see how Allah holds back the sky from falling down?'
A falling sky implies a solid object and once again this made perfect sense to people back then, as they believed the sky was solid and was held up and that they could see it.
Therefore according to the Koran this was a sign for them.
Falling space....whatever that means, would not have have meant anything to unbelievers now or then.

The Koran even says Allah could throw a piece of sky on the unbelievers if he wished:

052.044
YUSUFALI: Were they to see a piece of the sky falling (on them), they would (only) say: "Clouds gathered in heaps!"

Obviously this isn't a piece of space!

In fact the Koran does say the sky will be in pieces one day:

55.037
YUSUFALI: When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment:

On judgement day the sky will be in pieces!

Once again you avoided the question I have been asking from the very beginning:

So what canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

Your stubbornness do so only highlights the stupidity of your position.
Unless you do so the Koran you are in check mate and the Koran is in error.
I don't see the need in responding to your wishful thinking and illogical invention, when it's clear the Koran describes the sky as a canopy/roof people back then considered a sign.

 

[Truthisnotyourenemy]

The Koran also contains the myth of the seven heavens which were prevalent when the time the Koran was revealed.

Taken from Wikipedia:

In ancient astronomy, before the telescope was invented, people referred to the Sun, Moon, and the five planets visible with the naked eye as the seven heavenly objects. Each had its own layer of heaven or sky assigned to it, and each was considered to be farther and farther away from Earth. Today we refer to the layers as the orbit of the object around the Sun.

It was believed by many cultures, and still is by some today, that when people die, their souls float into the sky, visiting each of the Seven Heavenly Objects as they travel to the outermost layer of heaven. When they reach that outermost layer, they are believed to actually meet God, who was/is supposed to exist just above the last layer of heaven.

Seventh Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does the Koran repeat this myth?


1.Does it mention seven heavens:


023.086
SHAKIR: Say: Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Lord of the mighty dominion?

Is is assumed the seven heavens is common knowledge in the above verse.


2.Are they visible, layered one above another and is the reader aware of their existence:

071.015
SHAKIR: Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens ,~ one above another

The Koran tells us the seven heavens are visible and are layered one above another in the above verse.

067.003
SHAKIR: Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder?

The above verse is asking the 7th century Arabs who created the seven heavens they can see? Then challenges them to observe and look for any flaws, which they won't find.

The Koran perfectly fits the criteria for this myth and would have confirmed the ignorance of its 7th century audience.
There were variations of this myth, but they were similar most respects and the Koran claims this myth is a sign of Allahs existence, just like the previous myths mentioned in this thread.

 

[FearGod]

Like I said it's about context. People believed in the solid sky but they also thought that birds flew in the sky.
Just like the Koran says.

How the sky is solid and the birds fly in the sky,as the sky to you means a solid ceiling,but if 2 meters above your head is called sky,so what difference it makes if the sky is 10 meters,1000 meters high,it is still sky

It was clear to those people who believed in a solid sky as it was a sign for them, so why isn't clear to you?

It is very clear to me but you only have difficulty to understand that sky and space is an unseen structure that hold everything to be fixed and to float in its own orbits.

The Koran is asking disbelievers 'don't they see how Allah holds back the sky from falling down?'
A falling sky implies a solid object and once again this made perfect sense to people back then, as they believed the sky was solid and was held up and that they could see it.
Therefore according to the Koran this was a sign for them.
Falling space....whatever that means, would not have have meant anything to unbelievers now or then.

Still you can't comprehend or you aren't willing to comprehend.

The space is an unseen structure that holding everything from dropping down,so if the space dropped down which means approaching to zero space,what will happen.

The Koran even says Allah could throw a piece of sky on the unbelievers if he wished:

052.044
YUSUFALI: Were they to see a piece of the sky falling (on them), they would (only) say: "Clouds gathered in heaps!"

Obviously this isn't a piece of space!

First the verse says from the sky and not of the sky,that was a wrong translation,the correct translation is

If they ever saw some object falling out of the sky, they would say: ´Some clouds have been piled up." by T. B Irving
Reference: at-Tur 52:44

Now lets assume that the part is as you think of it to be a piece of the sky and then you believe it be a cloud,then the question that comes to mind,are the moving clouds regards to be as solid to harm people on ancient times.

Please try to analyze and think about what you are reading than just copy and paste blindly from some stupid anti-Islamic websites.

Do you think the verse says that the smoke or the cloud is a hard piece falling from the roof of the sky or it says they think it to be so.

The actual meaning is pointing to the Asteroids as they didn't know where it comes from and they thought that some clouds were piled up and converted to a solid body.

In fact the Koran does say the sky will be in pieces one day:

55.037
YUSUFALI: When the sky is rent asunder, and it becomes red like ointment:

On judgement day the sky will be in pieces!

Yes it will be as the one you see in the image,the end of the universe will be colorful.


The correct translation for verse (55:37)
And when the heaven is split open and becomes rose-colored like oil -

Once again you avoided the question I have been asking from the very beginning:

So what canopy/roof was a sign to people who already believed in a solid sky?

Your stubbornness do so only highlights the stupidity of your position.
Unless you do so the Koran you are in check mate and the Koran is in error.
I don't see the need in responding to your wishful thinking and illogical invention, when it's clear the Koran describes the sky as a canopy/roof people back then considered a sign.

The quran never points to the sky as being a solid state or a solid roof,it is only you and some others who wish to make silly excuses for rejecting God.

You who disbelieve, do not make up any excuses today; you are merely being rewarded for whatever you have been doing. 66:7

 

[FearGod]

The Koran also contains the myth of the seven heavens which were prevalent when the time the Koran was revealed.

Taken from Wikipedia:

In ancient astronomy, before the telescope was invented, people referred to the Sun, Moon, and the five planets visible with the naked eye as the seven heavenly objects. Each had its own layer of heaven or sky assigned to it, and each was considered to be farther and farther away from Earth. Today we refer to the layers as the orbit of the object around the Sun.

It was believed by many cultures, and still is by some today, that when people die, their souls float into the sky, visiting each of the Seven Heavenly Objects as they travel to the outermost layer of heaven. When they reach that outermost layer, they are believed to actually meet God, who was/is supposed to exist just above the last layer of heaven.

Seventh Heaven - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Does the Koran repeat this myth?


1.Does it mention seven heavens:


023.086
SHAKIR: Say: Who is the Lord of the seven heavens and the Lord of the mighty dominion?

Is is assumed the seven heavens is common knowledge in the above verse.


2.Are they visible, layered one above another and is the reader aware of their existence:

071.015
SHAKIR: Do you not see how Allah has created the seven heavens ,~ one above another

The Koran tells us the seven heavens are visible and are layered one above another in the above verse.

067.003
SHAKIR: Who created the seven heavens one above another; you see no incongruity in the creation of the Beneficent Allah; then look again, can you see any disorder?

The above verse is asking the 7th century Arabs who created the seven heavens they can see? Then challenges them to observe and look for any flaws, which they won't find.

The Koran perfectly fits the criteria for this myth and would have confirmed the ignorance of its 7th century audience.
There were variations of this myth, but they were similar most respects and the Koran claims this myth is a sign of Allahs existence, just like the previous myths mentioned in this thread.

That looks stupid and a fabricated story which can be easily rejected by any smart mind.

The known planets that can be seen by the naked eye were Mercury,Venus,Mars,Jupiter & Saturn and they were seen as stars and were called the wandering stars,now adding to the five planets,earth,moon and the sun,so we get 8 heavens and not seven and what about the huge numbers of Stars in the sky,weren't they also heavenly objects and should be counted as well.

A lie can never live in a smart mind