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ESP, psychic and supernatural phenomenon... yes or no?

thebigpicture

Active Member
If I didn't interpret you correctly, then please show me where I went wrong. You simply saying that I interpreted you wrong, and then refusing to actually state where, is only a dodge. It doesn't show I interpreted you wrong. And really, I don't have a want for a guessing game where you don't actually state what you're thinking.

I'm not trying, nor do I have a reason, to dodge. Why you see this as some kind of a game -- ? I have no idea. Sometimes it's just better when a person re-reads a post themselves in order to get a better understanding of what someone is saying. It's as simple as that. It happened to me once on another thread. I'd completely misread what someone had written and they simply told me I misread. They didn't explain anything; they simply stated I misread. I re-read their post and quickly found my point of error. I figured if you went back and re-read my reply to the OP on this thread, you would've been able to do the same. But if you really do want me to just point it out, fair enough...

Not once have I ever stated that people have supernatural powers.
 

thebigpicture

Active Member
Oh, I will.
I'm just not sure if 'cop out' or 'chickening out' has more of a ring to it. :sarcastic
Which do you think better conveys the meaning of someone who jumps into an argument presenting claims left right and centre, and who afterwards realizes that they do not have a single leg to stand on, and who then desperately tries to save face by acting casual about it? :D

(LOL!!) You're becoming pure comedy. You are seriously barking up the wrong tree if you think that nonsensical replies like this is going to work on me. (no rhyme intended) I thought I made that pretty clear the last time. You are getting nowhere fast, and you're not doing yourself any favors by continuing to grasp at straws the way you are. Just move on.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
(LOL!!) You're becoming pure comedy. You are seriously barking up the wrong tree if you think that nonsensical replies like this is going to work on me. (no rhyme intended) I thought I made that pretty clear the last time. You are getting nowhere fast, and you're not doing yourself any favors by continuing to grasp at straws the way you are. Just move on.

Actually, I think I've got you spot on, and besides, I'm enjoying myself. :D
I don't know what you mean by 'work on me' though.
I've known from the start that you wouldn't (and couldn't) back up your statement.
But that doesn't mean I can't have a little fun in the meantime. ;)
 

blackout

Violet.
Super-natural is categorized by default,
in accordance with an individual's view of natural.

If by 'natural' we mean...
what human beings (think) they have proven and explained to (their own) 'satisfaction'
(by whatever 'satisfactory' standards they have chosen)
then everything else... an infinity's worth....
that we do not know
(presently, or ever)
automatically goes into the "super'natural" bin.

That's one big bin.


paper, aluminum, plastic, natural, super'natural.
 
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thebigpicture

Active Member
Actually, I think I've got you spot on, and besides, I'm enjoying myself. :D
I don't know what you mean by 'work on me' though.
I've known from the start that you wouldn't (and couldn't) back up your statement.
But that doesn't mean I can't have a little fun in the meantime. ;)

Okay, now I'm just bored, and I feel you've crossed over into complete infantility. If you actually start to have something constructive to write, write it and I may respond to it; other than that, I'm moving on.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Okay, now I'm just bored, and I feel you've crossed over into complete infantility.

This is rather interesting since the reason I teased you in the first place was because of your rather immature response going along the lines of "I don't have to justify my claims to YOU!"

If you actually start to have something constructive to write, write it and I may respond to it; other than that, I'm moving on.

Oh, but I did, at the very beginning of this.
I asked you to substantiate your claims, a reasonable request I should think, seeing as this is a debate forum.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
I'm not trying, nor do I have a reason, to dodge. Why you see this as some kind of a game -- ? I have no idea. Sometimes it's just better when a person re-reads a post themselves in order to get a better understanding of what someone is saying. It's as simple as that. It happened to me once on another thread. I'd completely misread what someone had written and they simply told me I misread. They didn't explain anything; they simply stated I misread. I re-read their post and quickly found my point of error. I figured if you went back and re-read my reply to the OP on this thread, you would've been able to do the same. But if you really do want me to just point it out, fair enough...

Not once have I ever stated that people have supernatural powers.
Okay, you didn't say supernatural, but that really is splitting hairs. You stated: However, there are definitely people in the world with very real and true “insight” that goes beyond the normal level of the average person. As for other aspects of the spiritual world -- it’s real.

So, other aspects of the spiritual world are real. That suggest basically the same thing as the supernatural aspect. You state it as fact, when it's not. It is an opinion. That is fine if you state that it is an opinion, but once you state it as if it is a fact, you should defend it.

Second, you state that some people have this true insight that goes beyond what average people have. Still bordering on the idea of supernatural, and since you set this up with the idea of psychics, it is not a stretch to just say that you were talking about the supernatural. However, even what you say is not a definite fact. It is a definite opinion, that simply has no support for it.

Either way, supernatural or not, you stated something as if it definitely was fact, when it simply is not that.
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
And where did the devil get his powers? ;)

Whatever power any of us have, including Satan, we are responsible for using in harmony with God's will. Satan's misuse and abuse (and man's misuse and abuse) of power cannot rightly be charged to God. "All [God's] ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice. Righteous and upright is he. They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own." (Deuteronomy 32:4-5)
 

crystalonyx

Well-Known Member
Trying to put toether religiobn, ghosts, and the paranormal results in a mishmash of illogic and confusion. There really is no hard evidence whatsoever that any kind of afterlife exists.
 

thebigpicture

Active Member
Okay, you didn't say supernatural, but that really is splitting hairs.

It is not at all splitting hairs. There is a very clear distinction between the spiritual aspect and the physical aspect of the world. There are things that can be done in the spiritual realm that cannot necessarily be done in the physical realm. We are spiritual beings (souls) within physical bodies. There are things that our spiritual selves can naturally do in the spiritual form, but cannot do it while within our physical forms. People don’t have supernatural powers meaning -- people, while in the physical form, cannot do anything that falls outside the realm of what we are allowed and/or are capable of doing as physical beings. A person cannot fly without assistance; they cannot levitate; they cannot walk through solid objects; they cannot teleport, just to name several. What a person can do in the physical form is very limited. What they can do cognitively and what they can do spiritually (spiritual form), however, is extraordinarily vast.

Second, you state that some people have this true insight that goes beyond what average people have. Still bordering on the idea of supernatural, and since you set this up with the idea of psychics, it is not a stretch to just say that you were talking about the supernatural.

No, it is a stretch. It’s not a stretch if you see it from your perspective which was a misinterpretation of what I actually stated. You saw the word “psychic” and automatically assumed I felt that people had supernatural powers. When in fact, I actually spoke about the justified mistrust in so-called psychics.

Having insight is not supernatural. We all have it on some level. Having insight is a natural thing, and someone having insight on a deeper or above-average level is not supernatural. That person is just more attuned to the natural attributes given by the Creator. Some people have a stronger ability to go really deep within. There are many things that people have the ability to know, but are just not aware of their abilities. I feel a lot of it is because there is a disbelief they are capable of doing so or because they are afraid to do so. Many people are taught that they are not supposed to know what is deep beneath the surface, so they don’t even try to go deeper within, and many times people are quick to dismiss what they do not understand or are unaware of.

However, even what you say is not a definite fact. It is a definite opinion, that simply has no support for it.

You state it as fact, when it's not. It is an opinion. That is fine if you state that it is an opinion, but once you state it as if it is a fact, you should defend it.

Either way, supernatural or not, you stated something as if it definitely was fact, when it simply is not that.

Some people have a much deeper insight than others. That is a fact; not an opinion. The spiritual realm is real. That is a fact. Not a guess, not an opinion -- a fact. I know 100% that it is real. If you don’t agree with that being a fact, that is completely fine. You don’t have to believe anything that does not seem true to you; but your disbelief is totally irrelevant. As, I’ve stated before -- not everyone has to agree that a fact is a fact in order for it to be an actual fact. People disbelieve facts all the time. I’m going to quote myself because I feel what I wrote in a previous post warrants repeating:

“I’m not going to waste my time proving something like that to a skeptic. You either believe it or you don’t. Some things people have to experience firsthand in order for their views to change, which I completely understand. If and when you experience something, then you’ll know. If not, then you’ll remain a skeptic. Either way, I’m good.”

Quite simply put, my knowing something to be true does not depend on your approval of my knowledge, nor am I seeking approval. It really is just that simple.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Whatever power any of us have, including Satan, we are responsible for using in harmony with God's will. Satan's misuse and abuse (and man's misuse and abuse) of power cannot rightly be charged to God. "All [God's] ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice. Righteous and upright is he. They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own." (Deuteronomy 32:4-5)

If God only wants us to use it exactly as he prescribes, why did he give it to us in the first place?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
If God only wants us to use it exactly as he prescribes, why did he give it to us in the first place?

Because he loves us and wants us to have intellectual and physical abilities that bring us happiness in living. The first two people on earth were blessed by God with perfect health in a beautiful paradise filled with abundant food. They had before them the prospect of extending this paradise earthwide, living and learning and doing fascinating things without their life coming to an end. (Genesis 1:28) Their offspring would also be able to share in God's loving purpose for man and the earth.
As our Creator, God has the right to give us direction and commands. The trouble comes when we ignore our Creator, as Adam and Eve did. (Jeremiah 10:23)
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
Because he loves us and wants us to have intellectual and physical abilities that bring us happiness in living. The first two people on earth were blessed by God with perfect health in a beautiful paradise filled with abundant food. They had before them the prospect of extending this paradise earthwide, living and learning and doing fascinating things without their life coming to an end. (Genesis 1:28) Their offspring would also be able to share in God's loving purpose for man and the earth.
As our Creator, God has the right to give us direction and commands. The trouble comes when we ignore our Creator, as Adam and Eve did. (Jeremiah 10:23)

But if we have to do as he says or suffer unimaginable punishment, does that not make us slaves?
If he wanted us to behave in a set way, why give us free will in the first place?
 

rusra02

Well-Known Member
Premium Member
But if we have to do as he says or suffer unimaginable punishment, does that not make us slaves?
If he wanted us to behave in a set way, why give us free will in the first place?

God wants us to serve him because we love him, much as a loving father wants his children's respect and love, not as something forced, but given freely. Our first parents had every reason to show such love, because God had displayed his love for them in innumerable ways. As Sovereign ruler, God has the right to set reasonable limits to our conduct, but these do not enslave us. (2 Corinthians 3:12) Our parents set reasonable limits for us as children to protect us and train us. Just so with God. The penalty for willful rebellion is not eternal torment, but just as God stated to Adam, "you will positively die." (Genesis 2:17) Eternal nonexistence is the severest penalty God imposes upon those who wilfully practice what is bad.
 

jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
God wants us to serve him because we love him, much as a loving father wants his children's respect and love, not as something forced, but given freely. Our first parents had every reason to show such love, because God had displayed his love for them in innumerable ways. As Sovereign ruler, God has the right to set reasonable limits to our conduct, but these do not enslave us. (2 Corinthians 3:12) Our parents set reasonable limits for us as children to protect us and train us. Just so with God. The penalty for willful rebellion is not eternal torment, but just as God stated to Adam, "you will positively die." (Genesis 2:17) Eternal nonexistence is the severest penalty God imposes upon those who wilfully practice what is bad.

So hell is a lie then?
Still sounds like practical enslavement to me though.
It's like telling a dying man that you won't save him unless he does what you tell him to do.
Pretty effective threat, wouldn't you say?
 
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jarofthoughts

Empirical Curmudgeon
I assume that you have convincing extraordinay evidence for this extraordinary statement.

He already told us that he is more of the making-wild-and-improbable-claims-based-on-@#$%&-all type of guy, not the I'm-actually-going-to-substantiate-any-of-my-fanciful-notions type of guy. :D
 

Gjallarhorn

N'yog-Sothep
God also made iron plentiful on the earth.

Does that mean He's to blame for bullets?
And the Lord was with Judah; and he drave out the inhabitants of the mountain; but could not drive out the inhabitants of the valley, because they had chariots of iron.
 

fallingblood

Agnostic Theist
Some people have a much deeper insight than others. That is a fact; not an opinion. The spiritual realm is real. That is a fact. Not a guess, not an opinion -- a fact. I know 100% that it is real. If you don’t agree with that being a fact, that is completely fine. You don’t have to believe anything that does not seem true to you; but your disbelief is totally irrelevant. As, I’ve stated before -- not everyone has to agree that a fact is a fact in order for it to be an actual fact. People disbelieve facts all the time. I’m going to quote myself because I feel what I wrote in a previous post warrants repeating:

“I’m not going to waste my time proving something like that to a skeptic. You either believe it or you don’t. Some things people have to experience firsthand in order for their views to change, which I completely understand. If and when you experience something, then you’ll know. If not, then you’ll remain a skeptic. Either way, I’m good.”

Quite simply put, my knowing something to be true does not depend on your approval of my knowledge, nor am I seeking approval. It really is just that simple.
I'm not saying you need my approval. I'm saying that if you want to claim something is a fact, you have to show that it is a fact. What you are stating are opinions, which you claim are facts. That is not the same as a fact. That is an opinion. If you have no evidence to back up your claim, it is an opinion.

That opinion is fine to have, as long as you don't try to pass it off as a fact when it is not. Because it simply is not a fact. And I know you aren't going to try to prove that it is a fact, and that's fine. As long as you realize that you are talking about opinions.
 
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