Eternal hell or annihillation make no sense

[Soandso]

I'm not sure what you mean by a nihilist, I figure you probably mean do I believe that God can annihilate what He wants to? Specifically the lives and thoughts of that which is in opposition to him? Yes, I believe that.

Oh whoops! I meant annihilationist. An annihilationist is someone that believes that God destroys people's souls altogether instead of them experiencing unending torment forever

Annihilationism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Hell does not necessarily mean a place of total destruction. First we'd have to discuss how the word hell is used. And Jesus gave a parable to teach a lesson. We can discuss this as to what was the meaning of this story.

Well, I am familiar with the parable and it's meaning, but the point I was making was that if hell was not an actual place, why is it referenced so much the Bible within the context that it is an actual place? So much so, that eternal torment in hell has been a theological concept within Christianity since it's earliest days. I'm just curious on your thoughts on why this is, and why you think they might have had a different take than you on this matter

That said, I do think the argument for annihilationism is more reasonable than the argument for eternal torture

 

[Ignatius A]

That would be the second option. Instead of answering my questions you went off on a tangent about consequences. So yes, you didn't initially answer the questions I was asking. You did here in this response down below though, so thank you



A little rude, but ok. At least you're being honest



What is there to handle? You misinterpreted my question so I brought it back on track



Sure. The fact consequences exist is irrelevant to the point I was making, which was that consequences exist within the context of the rules that have been put in place by the one who made them



You can "give me one more shot," or not. If you aren't having fun discussing the topic, I'd move on then



Ok good! Question, though: How does separation from God = eternal torture when I can experience life torment free now while also being separated from God? Why should separation from God in life be painless while separation from God in death mean never ending torment? It seems to me that if this is the case, couldn't god just make it so that separation in death from him would be torment free like it is now? Why didn't he make it that way? Why did he specifically choose for people to experience never ending torment in death?



...consequences that the rule maker made. If I'm playing Monopoly and I draw the go to jail card and "do not pass go and do not collect 200$," that is a consequence that is specifically structure by the creators of that game according to the rules they've put together. They could have made the card say anything, but that was what they chose to print on the card

All choices and consequences in life are made within the context of the rules governing the world we inhabit. If I smoke a pack of cigarettes every day, chances are that I'll get lung cancer or emphysema due to the rules on how smoke and tar inhalation effect lung tissue, specifically

So why would God create a reality where separation from him would = eternal and never ending torment? Why were those the rules he stuck with? Sure, we can just say that those are just the consequences of our actions, but it certainly seems evil to create those consequences in the first place



Blast him? No. I'm just looking for a logical reason for how he can be considered all good and loving while structuring a fundamental system that is so starkly opposite of those two things. He can create those rules, but those rules are unimaginably evil. Doesn't seem reasonable



True, but those consequences are consequences he made possible. He could have made them anything



I'm not sure what you mean by this. Could you unpack this a little more for me?

I get it that you expect God to play by the rules you think are fair. Since he doesn't you can't square that with the "loving" God that believers claim exists. Fair enough. If you aren't worried about any "eternal torture" being separated from God in death then anything I say is irrelevant to you. I'm not here to change your mind.

 

[Soandso]

I get it that you expect God to play by the rules you think are fair. Since he doesn't you can't square that with the "loving" God that believers claim exists. Fair enough

I think it's less to do with what I think is fair and more to do with what is logical or reasonable. For example - maybe you could name for me a person anyone would consider good who excessively tortures people or allows people to be excessively tortured when they have the power to keep that from happening? While torture can be used to extract information, there is no point for excessive torture

You could say that the person chose the torture for themselves, but it's in a similar way that a person in H. H. Holmes' murder mansion "chose" to be tortured or killed by going down the hall to the left. People are making the choices themselves, but H. H. Holmes built the murder mansion. How could anyone be anything but evil when they construct a situation that results in excessive, pointless suffering?

If you aren't worried about any "eternal torture" being separated from God in death then anything I say is irrelevant to you. I'm not here to change your mind.

Nor would I expect you to. I just enjoy picking people's brains and seeing what they think

 

[Ignatius A]

I think it's less to do with what I think is fair and more to do with what is logical or reasonable. For example - maybe you could name for me a person anyone would consider good who excessively tortures people or allows people to be excessively tortured? While torture can be used to extract information, there is no point for excessive torture

You could say that the person chose the torture for themselves, but it's in a similar way that a person in H. H. Holmes' murder mansion "chose" to be tortured or killed by going down the hall to the left. People are making the choices themselves, but H. H. Holmes built the murder mansion. How could anyone be anything but evil when they construct a situation that results in excessive, pointless suffering?



Nor would I expect you to. I just enjoy picking people's brains and seeing what they think

I agree, your logic and your reasoning. Again you think God tortured people. He doesn't. You either can't or won't get that through your head. If the doctor tells someone to stop smoking but the person continues to smoke, are any problems resulting fom the person continuing to smoke, the doctors fault? Besides if you don't believe in God why do you care if he tortures anyone, which he doesn't, for eternity?

 

[Soandso]

I agree, your logic and your reasoning. Again you think God tortured people. He doesn't. You either can't or won't get that through your head.

Whether or not god actively participated in torturing people isn't my point. My point is that God made the rules that make torture a consequence in the first place. He could have made the rules anything, but that is what he chose. He's not completely blameless

If the doctor tells someone to stop smoking but the person continues to smoke, are any problems resulting fom the person continuing to smoke, the doctors fault?

No it's not, because the doctor didn't create the rules for how smoke effects the lungs. The doctor is on the same level as a pastor who tells people not to sin or they go to hell. He is an advisor

We aren't talking about advisors, though. We are talking about creators. Builders. They effect how things work. This is what God is in this particular case

Besides if you don't believe in God why do you care if he tortures anyone, which he doesn't, for eternity?

Well, given that I've spent most of my life as a deeply religious person, religion is interesting to me. It's not that I care if God tortures anyone or not, but I care more about what others think and I care about exploring philosophical concepts with them

As for this thread, I'm just giving my two cents as to why the idea of eternal torment isn't logical in the first place

 

[Ignatius A]

Whether or not god actively participated in torturing people isn't my point. My point is that God made the rules that make torture a consequence in the first place. He could have made the rules anything, but that is what he chose. He's not completely blameless



No it's not, because the doctor didn't create the rules for how smoke effects the lungs. The doctor is on the same level as a pastor who tells people not to sin or they go to hell. He is an advisor

We aren't talking about advisors, though. We are talking about creators. Builders. They effect how things work. This is what God is in this particular case



Well, given that I've spent most of my life as a deeply religious person, religion is interesting to me. It's not that I care if God tortures anyone or not, but I care more about what others think and I care about exploring philosophical concepts with them

As for this thread, I'm just giving my two cents as to why the idea of eternal torment isn't logical in the first place

Right he did make the rules but any torture you experience is your choice not his. Again you don't like the rules. You want what you want and you don't like hearing "No". I get it. Choices shouldnt have consequences. A loving God will let you do whatever you want.

Ok eternal torture you choose is illogical. Noted.

 

[Soandso]

Right he did make the rules but any torture you experience is your choice not his. Again you don't like the rules. You want what you want and you don't like hearing "No". I get it.

Eh, we're back to this again

Why would you think I care about hearing "no" or not when you also acknowledged I've stopped caring about the authority of what was telling me no in the first place? That makes no sense

 

[Link]

Vengeance has a proper place in virtue. It’s hard to accept because it has a niche situation.

 

[Soandso]

Vengeance has a proper place in virtue. It’s hard to accept because it has a niche situation.

I'm not sure that vengeance could ever be virtuous. Can you name an example where it is?

Also, assuming it were virtuous, is there a tipping point where acceptable vengeance becomes too excessive?

 

[Ignatius A]

Eh, we're back to this again

Why would you think I care about hearing "no" or not when you also acknowledged I've stopped caring about the authority of what was telling me no in the first place? That makes no sense

So then thanks for sharing your opinion. Youre telling us you don't agree with something you dont even think exists. Do you waste a lot of your life doing stuff like that?

 

[Soandso]

So then thanks for sharing your opinion. Youre telling us you don't agree with something you dont even think exists. Do you waste a lot of your life doing stuff like that?

Well I've already told you I enjoy discussing philosophical concepts, especially when they involve religious philosophy. It's obvious you think that's a waste of time. To each their own

Maybe you could share why you're spending your time here as well? Do you think you're wasting your own life like you think I'm wasting my life, or do you only apply you're judgemental and condescending attitude towards others?

 

[Spice]

Right he did make the rules but any torture you experience is your choice not his. Again you don't like the rules. You want what you want and you don't like hearing "No". I get it. Choices shouldnt have consequences. A loving God will let you do whatever you want.

Ok eternal torture you choose is illogical. Noted.

What if eternal torture is just eternal life as you now have? Many choose what they know over the unknown. There's an old episode of the Twightlight Zone that portraits hell for a workaholic as never being able to leave his office -- not ever. The choice was made in life as to what was at the top of his priorities. He chose.

 

[Ignatius A]

Well I've already told you I enjoy discussing philosophical concepts, especially when they involve religious philosophy. It's obvious you think that's a waste of time. To each their own

Maybe you could share why you're spending your time here as well? Do you think you're wasting your own life like you think I'm wasting my life, or do you only apply you're judgemental and condescending attitude towards others?

No it's not a waste of time but your fall back argument was, you don't believe in any of this. That's not discussion.

No I'm sharing truth in the hope it plants a seed in people. If you think my attitude is judgmental, a constant tired old refrain and condescending, that's on you. I don't control how you process my "attitude".

 

[Mock Turtle]

Yes it is black and white. That's not my fault.

But not the same between the various religions though - so we unbelievers should just check all the boxes so as to conform?

 

[Ignatius A]

What if eternal torture is just eternal life as you now have? Many choose what they know over the unknown. There's an old episode of the Twightlight Zone that portraits hell for a workaholic as never being able to leave his office -- not ever. The choice was made in life as to what was at the top of his priorities. He chose.

Yes thats a version of hell I've heard before. That's why people who choose hell would hate heaven. In heaven the workaholic would only have to be but they just can't be they have to be working. Heaven would be hell for them. They could never be happy there not working.

 

[Ignatius A]

But not the same between the various religions though - so we unbelievers should just check all the boxes so as to conform?

I don't really care about various religions. I don't check off any of the boxes of islam but so what? We make choices.

 

[Spice]

Yes thats a version of hell I've heard before. That's why people who choose hell would hate heaven. In heaven the workaholic would only have to be but they just can't be they have to be working. Heaven would be hell for them. They could never be happy there not working.

And in this episode, once he discovered what had happened, he wasn't pleased. But that leads to another recently active thread........LOL

 

[muhammad_isa]

My point is that God made the rules that make torture a consequence in the first place. He could have made the rules anything..

Are you sure?
I mean, how many universes have you actually created?

Do you think "the rules" should be sane in any way?

No it's not, because the doctor didn't create the rules for how smoke effects the lungs..

What you seem to be complaining about here, is our mortality. i.e. we must die of something

 

[muhammad_isa]

No it's not a waste of time ..

No, it isn't .. not at all.

 

[Soandso]

No it's not a waste of time but your fall back argument was, you don't believe in any of this. That's not discussion.

It wasn't really intended to be an argument. I was pointing how you inaccurately judged my position on the topic by pointing out how little sense your assessment of it made. Why would you keep assuming I cared whether or not that the consequences of my choices according to hell doctrine mattered to me on a personal level if you could see that I didn't believe that it was real? You're the one that drew the conclusion that I didn't want to be told "no" or that I just wanted to do what I wanted to do without there being consequences

No I'm sharing truth in the hope it plants a seed in people. If you think my attitude is judgmental, a constant tired old refrain and condescending, that's on you. I don't control how you process my "attitude".

Fair enough