Eternal hell or annihillation make no sense

[Soandso]

Are you sure?
I mean, how many universes have you actually created?

None. Are you saying even god has limitations and rules he has to follow? If that's true, who created the forces that God has to follow?

Do you think "the rules" should be sane in any way?

I think that if things defy logic, they aren't very convincing

What you seem to be complaining about here, is our mortality. i.e. we must die of something

Not at all. What I was describing in that moment was the difference between an advisor vs. a creator. Here's the example in full context

No it's not, because the doctor didn't create the rules for how smoke effects the lungs. The doctor is on the same level as a pastor who tells people not to sin or they go to hell. He is an advisor

We aren't talking about advisors, though. We are talking about creators. Builders. They effect how things work. This is what God is in this particular case

 

[Trailblazer]

What if eternal torture is just eternal life as you now have? Many choose what they know over the unknown. There's an old episode of the Twightlight Zone that portraits hell for a workaholic as never being able to leave his office -- not ever. The choice was made in life as to what was at the top of his priorities. He chose.

That is not eternal life, not by my definition of eternal life, which means nearness to God, which is heaven.
Being attached to this world in whatever way, and not being able to move on to the spiritual world, is hell.

 

[Soandso]

That is not eternal life, not by my definition of eternal life, which means nearness to God, which is heaven.
Being attached to this world in whatever way, and not being able to move on to the spiritual world, is hell.

Are you saying that we are living in hell now?

 

[Ignatius A]

Whether or not god actively participated in torturing people isn't my point. My point is that God made the rules that make torture a consequence in the first place. He could have made the rules anything, but that is what he chose. He's not completely blameless



No it's not, because the doctor didn't create the rules for how smoke effects the lungs. The doctor is on the same level as a pastor who tells people not to sin or they go to hell. He is an advisor

We aren't talking about advisors, though. We are talking about creators. Builders. They effect how things work. This is what God is in this particular case



Well, given that I've spent most of my life as a deeply religious person, religion is interesting to me. It's not that I care if God tortures anyone or not, but I care more about what others think and I care about exploring philosophical concepts with them

As for this thread, I'm just giving my two cents as to why the idea of eternal torment isn't logical in the first place

So if my baseball team loses a game those who made the rules of baseball have some blame for that? Really?

 

[Link]

I'm not sure that vengeance could ever be virtuous. Can you name an example where it is?

Also, assuming it were virtuous, is there a tipping point where acceptable vengeance becomes too excessive?

In the appropriate place of vengeance God is the most severe in it. In the proper place of compassion and mercy, he is the most intense in it.

 

[Spice]

That is not eternal life, not by my definition of eternal life, which means nearness to God, which is heaven.
Being attached to this world in whatever way, and not being able to move on to the spiritual world, is hell.

This is an example of hell -- as some see possible.

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

So if my baseball team loses a game those who made the rules of baseball have some blame for that? Really?

Consider the situation that your team loses the game, so they are all executed. Really.

It's about a sense of proportionality. You may think it okay for the rulemaker to make such rules, but others look at such rules and find the eternal punishment for the slightest sin to be disproportional...

Looking back to the title of the thread, it's a statement that the proposition makes no sense.

It doesn't make no sense. It makes sense because it's a threat designed to keep people in line with someone else's rules.

 

[Trailblazer]

Are you saying that we are living in hell now?

No, I am not saying that everyone is, but some people are living in hell and don't even know it, they think this world is heaven.
We can be in heaven or hell in this life as well as in the afterlife since heaven and hell are conditions of the soul.
One way we can be in hell in this life is by being attached to this world and by such an attachment we lose eternal life, which is nearness to God.

John 12:24-26 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit. He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal. If any man serve me, let him follow me; and where I am, there shall also my servant be: if any man serve me, him will my Father honour.

 

[Soandso]

In the appropriate place of vengeance God is the most severe in it. In the proper place of compassion and mercy, he is the most intense in it.

Eh... I don't really feel satisfied with these answers

Virtue and vengeance seems like oil and water. Vengeance seems driven by the self gratification of seeing those that have done wrong to you or those you care about brought low. Where is virtue in that?

 

[Ignatius A]

Consider the situation that your team loses the game, so they are all executed. Really.

It's about a sense of proportionality. You may think it okay for the rulemaker to make such rules, but others look at such rules and find the eternal punishment for the slightest sin to be disproportional...

Looking back to the title of the thread, it's a statement that the proposition makes no sense.

It doesn't make no sense. It makes sense because it's a threat designed to keep people in line with someone else's rules.

You can't be executed once your dead. You either win (heaven) or you lose (hell)

What you think of the rules and their proposition isn't really relevant to anything.

Do God's rules matter to you? Do you follow them? If not then they can't keep you or anyone else in line with his rules and they arent intended to.

 

[Link]

Eh... I don't really feel satisfied with these answers

Virtue and vengeance seems like oil and water. Vengeance seems driven by the self gratification of seeing those that have done wrong to you or those you care about brought low. Where is virtue in that?

From a logical standpoint, God doesn't create emotions or things that are totally useless. They can be misused, but if it didn't have a place in virtue, we would not have it.

 

[Ignatius A]

Eh... I don't really feel satisfied with these answers

Virtue and vengeance seems like oil and water. Vengeance seems driven by the self gratification of seeing those that have done wrong to you or those you care about brought low. Where is virtue in that?

Again you expect God to answer to your understanding. Not how it works. You are completely free to ignore everything anything God says. It seems you taken full advantage of that freedom. Good for you.

 

[Soandso]

From a logical standpoint, God doesn't create emotions or things that are totally useless. They can be misused, but if it didn't have a place in virtue, we would not have it.

That's an interesting way of seeing things

I'm not sure I can see things that way though given that I don't think there's much virtue in selfishness. Vengeance is driven by selfish desire, not for the sake of justice

 

[beenherebeforeagain]

You can't be executed once your dead. You either win (heaven) or you lose (hell)

What you think of the rules and their proposition isn't really relevant to anything.

Do God's rules matter to you? Do you follow them? If not then they can't keep you or anyone else in line with his rules and they arent intended to.

So, what you're doing in this thread is proselytizing, because you apparently think you need to save anyone everyone who doesn't already think as you do. I see.

 

[Trailblazer]

Virtue and vengeance seems like oil and water. Vengeance seems driven by the self gratification of seeing those that have done wrong to you or those you care about brought low. Where is virtue in that?

According to the Baha'i Faith we are never to seek vengeance, only punishment.

“In His Tablets ‘Abdu’l-Bahá explains the difference between revenge and punishment. He affirms that individuals do not have the right to take revenge, that revenge is despised in the eyes of God, and that the motive for punishment is not vengeance, but the imposition of a penalty for the committed offence. . In Some Answered Questions, He confirms that it is the right of society to impose punishments on criminals for the purpose of protecting its members and defending its existence.” The Kitáb-i-Aqdas, p. 203

Doesn't the Bible say "Vengeance is Mine, sayeth the Lord"?

There is no virtue in vengeance....
God has the right to seek vengeance, but humans should not.

 

[Soandso]

Again you expect God to answer to your understanding. Not how it works.

If a concept is so alien to me that I wouldn't ever be able to understand it, then why is it expected that I'm supposed to accept it as truth?

You are completely free to ignore everything anything God says. It seems you taken full advantage of that freedom. Good for you.

I wouldn't say I ignore everything god says. If I did, I wouldn't be here discussing those things now. If anything, I think giving thought to the things that people think about God or their gods gives a more fleshed out perspective on what lies at the heart of mankind as a whole. I think that's a pretty cool thing

 

[muhammad_isa]

None..

..so no experience then.

Are you saying even god has limitations and rules he has to follow? If that's true, who created the forces that God has to follow?

There are many things that are hidden from us .. and that is one of them .. i.e. the reality of the "cosmos"
..but there are a few clues .. the existence of logic(mathematical) being one of them.

I think that if things defy logic, they aren't very convincing..

I couldn't agree more .. but we are apt to make mistakes.

..and in the context of our exchange, that would be regards what G-d can do and what He cannot.
eg. It is illogical that G-d can do illogical things

If G-d could, then our exchange becomes totally meaningless .. i.e. words becomes meaningless

 

[YoursTrue]

Oh whoops! I meant annihilationist. An annihilationist is someone that believes that God destroys people's souls altogether instead of them experiencing unending torment forever

Annihilationism - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

Well, I am familiar with the parable and it's meaning, but the point I was making was that if hell was not an actual place, why is it referenced so much the Bible within the context that it is an actual place? So much so, that eternal torment in hell has been a theological concept within Christianity since it's earliest days. I'm just curious on your thoughts on why this is, and why you think they might have had a different take than you on this matter

That said, I do think the argument for annihilationism is more reasonable than the argument for eternal torture

What do you mean by "people's SOULS?"

 

[Soandso]

There is no virtue in vengeance....
God has the right to seek vengeance, but humans should not.

Eh, if there's no virtue in vengeance, does God lose his perfect virtue when seeking it? If God does something for the sake of selfish vengeance, does it instead become a good act when we wouldn't consider it good otherwise?

 

[Trailblazer]

If a concept is so alien to me that I wouldn't ever be able to understand it, then why is it expected that I'm supposed to accept it as truth?

Nothing God reveals in scripture is a concept is so alien to you that you wouldn't ever be able to understand it.
Do you see how that is different from 'expecting God to answer to your understanding' ?