Eternal hell or annihillation make no sense

[muhammad_isa]

And what exactly is the very good reason?

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
- Acts 23 KJV -

..so, how can a "rotted corpse" represent a person, if not by the soul?

 

[Trailblazer]

Hi Trailblazer, as you know from our discussions, I do not believe there is a soul in the theological sense.

1) In all OT, the mentioning of soul means a living person. not an immaterial, invisible thing called soul.

Yes, I know that.

What is the Hebrew concept of the soul?

THE HEBREW VIEW: The Hebrew word for soul is nephesh and it literally means "breath." Animals as well as human beings were created with this life breath as a gift from God (Gen. 2:7; 7:22, 6:17; Ecc. 3:19). The Hebrew nephesh is also connected with the life-blood (Gen. 9:4; Lev.
On the Nature of the Soul

2) This verse is where Christianity based it's claim that Jesus had to die, because he took upon him the sins of the world. Was Jesus stopped from having eternal life, because he became a sinner? Was Jesus stopped from being next to God?

Jesus was sinless, so Jesus was not a sinner. Jesus was a Messenger/Manifestation of God so He was not an ordinary human being.

"In Patristic thought, towards the end of the 2nd century, psūchê (soul in Greek) had begun to be understood in a more Greek (Platonic) than a Hebrew way, contrasted with the body. By the 3rd century, with the influence of Origen, the traditions of the inherent immortality of the soul and its divine nature were established. As the new Encyclopædia Britannica points out: “The early Christian philosophers adopted the Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and thought of the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception."

The ancient Hebrew understanding of the soul as being ONLY the breath of life is incorrect. The souls is what gives the body life and allows it to function, but the soul does not die what the body dies. The soul continues to exist in a spiritual body after we die physically.

The Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception is the correct understanding of the soul.

The idea of an immortal soul was developed (was not taught in the Bible) as it suited the advocates of Christianity, who later substituted the whole body going to paradise or hell, with the soul. I will remind you the parable of the rich man in hell seeing Lazarus in the bosom of Abraham (Luke 16:22-23).

Yes, I know that the idea of an immortal soul was developed later.

The modern scholarly consensus holds that the canonical teaching of the Old Testament made no reference to an immortal soul independent of the body. A wide range of scholarly reference works consistently represent this view. In recent times, a minority of scholars have partially dissented from this view.
Soul in the Bible - Wikipedia
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Where does the soul go after death according to Bible?

Ecclesiastes 12:7 says tells us what happens when a person dies. It says, “Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was; and the spirit shall return to God who gave it.” In other words, when a person dies, his or her spirit goes back to God, the body returns to dust and the soul of that person no longer exist. Oct 18, 2019
When you die | Sampson Independent

"and the spirit shall return to God who gave it" means that the soul shall return to God who gave it, since the human spirit is the soul.

“The human spirit which distinguishes man from the animal is the rational soul, and these two names—the human spirit and the rational soul—designate one thing. This spirit, which in the terminology of the philosophers is the rational soul, embraces all beings, and as far as human ability permits discovers the realities of things and becomes cognizant of their peculiarities and effects, and of the qualities and properties of beings.”
Some Answered Questions, p. 208
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
You said:
The verse reads: "The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent's sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child's sins; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself."

The verse reads many ways, depending upon which translation you read. Here are a few different translations of Ezekiel 18:20.

KJ21
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

ESV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not suffer for the iniquity of the father, nor the father suffer for the iniquity of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

ICB
It is the person who sins that will die. The son will not be punished for the father’s sin. The father will not be punished for the son’s sin. The person who does right is responsible for his own goodness. The evil person is responsible for his own evil.

ISV
The soul who sins dies. The son won’t bear the punishment of his father’s sin and the father won’t bear the punishment of his son’s sin. The righteous deeds of that righteous person will be attributed to him, while the wicked deeds of the wicked person will be charged against him.

JUB
The soul that sins, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him who is righteous, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him who is wicked.

KJV
The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.

LSB
The soul who sins will die. The son will not bear the iniquity of the father, nor will the father bear the iniquity of the son; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself.

LEB
The person, the one sinning, will die. A son shall not bear the guilt of the father, and a father shall not bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be on him; the wickedness of the wicked shall be on him.

TLB
The one who sins is the one who dies. The son shall not be punished for his father’s sins, nor the father for his son’s. The righteous person will be rewarded for his own goodness and the wicked person for his wickedness.

NIRV
A person will die because of their own sins. A child will not be guilty because of what their parent did. And a parent will not be guilty because of what their child did. The right things a godly person does will be added to their account. The wrong things a sinful person does will be charged against them.

NIV
The one who sins is the one who will die. The child will not share the guilt of the parent, nor will the parent share the guilt of the child. The righteousness of the righteous will be credited to them, and the wickedness of the wicked will be charged against them.

NKJV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

NLV
The person who sins will die. The son will not be punished for the father’s sin. And the father will not be punished for the son’s sin. The right and good man will receive good, and the sinful man will suffer for his sin.

NLT
The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.
~~~~~~~~~~
Let's look at the translation you cited.

NLT
The person who sins is the one who will die. The child will not be punished for the parent’s sins, and the parent will not be punished for the child’s sins. Righteous people will be rewarded for their own righteous behavior, and wicked people will be punished for their own wickedness.

If we interpret this to mean physical death, BOTH the person who sins and the person who does not sin will die, so the person who sins is not the ONLY one who will die.

This translation only makes sense if we realize (as I believe) that the soul is the person. In that case it would mean that the soul (person) who sins will not have eternal life, which is nearness to God that was conferred by believing in Jesus and following His teachings not to sin.

Let's look at another translation.

NKJV
The soul who sins shall die. The son shall not bear the guilt of the father, nor the father bear the guilt of the son. The righteousness of the righteous shall be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon himself.

I interpret this to mean that the soul who sins will not have eternal life, so that soul will be spiritually dead.
However since the soul is immortal, that soul will continue to exist in the spiritual world after its body dies.

 

[Ajax]

..so, how can a "rotted corpse" represent a person, if not by the soul?

Don't ask me, I don't believe in afterlife, however the concept of resurrection and explicit descriptions of the afterlife are not featured in the Torah.
As far as the Jews are concerned there were differences. The Sadducees held to a very literal perspective of the Torah while the Pharisees equated oral tradition with the Torah, which allowed for much wider interpretation. Since resurrection and the afterlife are never mentioned in the Torah, the Sadducees believed that there was no resurrection, whereas, the Pharisees believed in the resurrection of the bodies. Also spirit is not soul according to Christian theology.

Even Paul mentions in 1 Thess 4:14 "For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep....17 then we who are alive, who are left, shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air."
Although Paul is talking about the Second Coming, he nevertheless assumes that all the bodies, dead or alive, will be lifted. Even the Nicene Creed affirms belief in "the resurrection of the dead and the life of the world to come"

Since we are talking about whether the "soul" is immortal or not, there is no argument to the fact that this immoratlity was established in the 3rd and 4th century AD by Origen and Augustine of Hippo.
Of course, as if God was playing a game with his believers, there are hundreds of interpretations and understandings.

 

[Ajax]

Jesus was sinless, so Jesus was not a sinner. Jesus was a Messenger/Manifestation of God so He was not an ordinary human being.

Jesus , as believed, was sinless in his life, but when he took upon him all the sins of the world, became the worst sinner, hence he had to pay the penalty of death, as Ezekiel emphasizes personal responsibility for sin, stating that the one who sins will bear the consequences, which is death.

The ancient Hebrew understanding of the soul as being ONLY the breath of life is incorrect. The souls is what gives the body life and allows it to function, but the soul does not die what the body dies. The soul continues to exist in a spiritual body after we die physically.

The Greek concept of the soul’s immortality and the soul as being created by God and infused into the body at conception is the correct understanding of the soul.

The statement in bold, is your and others interpretation which you have every right to believe. However it is not necessarily true.

"and the spirit shall return to God who gave it" means that the soul shall return to God who gave it, since the human spirit is the soul.

Theologically it is not!
Theology teaches that while the soul is our life, the spirit opens us to a life filled with God's mercy and grace.

 

[Balthazzar]

Why?

Because or actions and sins is finitive. Infinitive punishment for finitive sins is not just.

God is loving and just. So my conclusion is that eternal hell or annhilation of the soul do not exist. That is my belief

What is your thoughts about this?

Depends on how you define hell, I guess. Being a reference to a trash heap in Gehenna set on fire, from what I understand this heap was nearly always burning. To me hell portrays both death (the grave) and a consuming fire, which I'll apply to the concept of refinement. It may be a "born again" type of thing where we die to our old more self-destructive ways and begin a journey of refinement. God is said to be a consuming fire, so I rarely view it to be anymore tormenting than understanding a need so desperately that you ache to have it met. The anticipation is that it will be, the eternal part is that this may be how life operates in general, leading us all to that place of refined satisfaction.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jesus , as believed, was sinless in his life, but when he took upon him all the sins of the world, became the worst sinner, hence he had to pay the penalty of death, as Ezekiel emphasizes personal responsibility for sin, stating that the one who sins will bear the consequences, which is death.

I'm sorry, you lost me.
How did Jesus become the worst sinner by taking on the sins of the world?

Jesus did not sin so Jesus was not a sinner.
FYI, I don't believe in the Christian doctrine of atonement since I don't believe in the Christian doctrine of original as per Adam and Eve.

The statement in bold, is your and others interpretation which you have every right to believe. However it is not necessarily true.

Nor is it necessarily false.

Theologically it is not!
Theology teaches that while the soul is our life, the spirit opens us to a life filled with God's mercy and grace.

What theology teaches that? Christian theology is not the only theology that exists.

I am not a Christian so I do not go by Christian theology.
I am a Baha'i so I go by Baha'i theology, and I thank God every day for that blessing.

 

[Ajax]

I'm sorry, you lost me.
How did Jesus become the worst sinner by taking on the sins of the world?

I don't think it needs explanation.. To give you a very simple example, if in a court of law where say 5 people are charged for murder, you say that you committed all the murders yourself, you free the defendants but you are found guilty. The same applies to Jesus. If he had taken upon him all the sins of millions or billions of people since Adam.

But there can be no serious discussion between us, because I haven't got the faintest idea about your religion and what you believe in, neither I'm interested to find out. Sorry...

 

[muhammad_isa]

Since we are talking about whether the "soul" is immortal or not, there is no argument to the fact that this immoratlity was established in the 3rd and 4th century AD by Origen and Augustine of Hippo..

I don't believe that..

The Sheep and the Goats​

------------------------------------------------------

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
...
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
- Bible Matthew 25 -

 

[Trailblazer]

I don't think it needs explanation.. To give you a very simple example, if in a court of law where say 5 people are charged for murder, you say that you committed all the murders yourself, you free the defendants but you are found guilty. The same applies to Jesus. If he had taken upon him all the sins of millions or billions of people since Adam.

Jesus atoning for all the sins of humanity is not Jesus saying that HE committed those sins.

What is the Atonement in the Bible?

What is the Atonement? As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind.
Atonement of Jesus Christ

Jesus atoning for all those sins, if He really did (and I am not saying I believe that since I don't believe in original sin), would make Jesus a saint, not a sinner, since he would have sacrificed His life for all of humanity.

I don't think you will find any Christian who agrees with you and considers Jesus a sinner because Jesus atoned for all the sins of humanity.

 

[YoursTrue]

6 But when Paul perceived that the one part were Sadducees, and the other Pharisees, he cried out in the council, Men and brethren, I am a Pharisee, the son of a Pharisee: of the hope and resurrection of the dead I am called in question.
7 And when he had so said, there arose a dissension between the Pharisees and the Sadducees: and the multitude was divided.
8 For the Sadducees say that there is no resurrection, neither angel, nor spirit: but the Pharisees confess both.
9 And there arose a great cry: and the scribes that were of the Pharisees' part arose, and strove, saying, We find no evil in this man: but if a spirit or an angel hath spoken to him, let us not fight against God.
- Acts 23 KJV -

..so, how can a "rotted corpse" represent a person, if not by the soul?

Jehovah remembers who the person WAS and can resurrect the person, mind, body and soul (living matter). In a certain spiritual sense, those in God's favor are considered as living to Him because he remembers them. This is because He loved them while they were alive and He will resurrect them.

 

[Trailblazer]

Jehovah remembers who the person WAS and can resurrect the person, mind, body and soul (living matter). In a certain spiritual sense, those in God's favor are considered as living to Him because he remembers them. This is because He loved them while they were alive and He will resurrect them.

Are you implying that God forgets everyone except a select group of people because He loved them while they were alive, but God did not love everyone else so God forgets them? If that is what you are saying I think it is a very cruel belief, not to mention unfathomable and illogical, to believe that a God who is all-knowing has memory loss and to suggest that a God who is all-loving would only love certain people.

So you believe that God only resurrects those people who He loved and remembers and what happens to everyone else who dies?

I know why you believe this, because you, along with the other JWs, want to live on Earth forever in a perfect physical body.

The soul is not living matter. The body is living matter.
A "rotted corpse" cannot represent a person since the soul leaves the body when the body dies.

The belief that God resurrects a rotted corpse is completely unsupported by the Bible.
Physical bodies that decomposed in the grave do not rise from the grave and become recomposed.

1 Corinthians 15
New Living Translation

The Resurrection Body

35 But someone may ask, “How will the dead be raised? What kind of bodies will they have?”

40 There are also bodies in the heavens and bodies on the earth. The glory of the heavenly bodies is different from the glory of the earthly bodies. 41 The sun has one kind of glory, while the moon and stars each have another kind. And even the stars differ from each other in their glory.

42 It is the same way with the resurrection of the dead. Our earthly bodies are planted in the ground when we die, but they will be raised to live forever. 43 Our bodies are buried in brokenness, but they will be raised in glory. They are buried in weakness, but they will be raised in strength. 44 They are buried as natural human bodies, but they will be raised as spiritual bodies. For just as there are natural bodies, there are also spiritual bodies.

50 What I am saying, dear brothers and sisters, is that our physical bodies cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. These dying bodies cannot inherit what will last forever.

51 But let me reveal to you a wonderful secret. We will not all die, but we will all be transformed!

 

[Ajax]

I don't believe that..

Whether you believe it or not, is irrelevant, as long as scholars and historians believe it...
There is no scriptural basis whatever for belief in an "immortal soul" surviving consciously after death.

Tertullian (155-220 AD), for example, wrote: "For some things are known even by nature: the immortality of the soul, for instance, is held by many... I may use, therefore, the opinion of a Plato, when he declares: 'Every soul is immortal'" (The Ante-Nicene Fathers, vol. III).

In Patristic thought, towards the end of the 2nd century, psūchê had begun to be understood in a more Greek than a Hebrew way, contrasted with the body. By the 3rd century, with the influence of Origen, the traditions of the inherent immortality of the soul and its divine nature were established. Soul in the Bible - Wikipedia

 

[Ajax]

Jesus atoning for all the sins of humanity is not Jesus saying that HE committed those sins.

What is the Atonement in the Bible?

What is the Atonement? As used in the scriptures, to atone is to suffer the penalty for sins, thereby removing the effects of sin from the repentant sinner and allowing him or her to be reconciled to God. Jesus Christ was the only one capable of carrying out the Atonement for all mankind.
Atonement of Jesus Christ

Jesus atoning for all those sins, if He really did (and I am not saying I believe that since I don't believe in original sin), would make Jesus a saint, not a sinner, since he would have sacrificed His life for all of humanity.

I don't think you will find any Christian who agrees with you and considers Jesus a sinner because Jesus atoned for all the sins of humanity.

The Christian belief is that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Someone had to pay for those sins according to Jewish beliefs. So for a brief moment Jesus supposedly and metaphorically claimed that he was "responsible" for all the sins of the world, hence the "worst sinner".

 

[muhammad_isa]

There is no scriptural basis whatever for belief in an "immortal soul" surviving consciously after death..

Well, that is your opinion.
You failed to comment on the sheep & goats .. looks like you are just ignoring many Bible verses,
to suit your opinion..
Oh well.

 

[Ajax]

32 All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats.
33 He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.
...
46 “Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.”
- Bible Matthew 25 -

What do you want me to comment on that? It's irrelevant because it does not refer to the immortality of the soul we are discussing..
As I showed you in the NT, people (even Jesus) believed in the resurrection and the judgement of bodies (see the parable of Lazarus and Abraham, Paul, etc).

 

[muhammad_isa]

It's irrelevant because it does not refer to the immortality of the soul we are discussing..

I think perhaps you are being pedantic, about the meaning of 'soul'.
We have SOS, as in 'save our souls', for example.

As I showed you in the NT, people (even Jesus) believed in the resurrection and the judgement of bodies (see the parable of Lazarus and Abraham, Paul, etc).

Bodies?
What about when a person has been in the grave for centuries?
Where is the 'body' then?

I see the word 'soul' as applying to the inner person, and NOT the body.
Yes, G-d can make our bodies over & over, as it pleases Him, but our innermost self is unique.

 

[Trailblazer]

Whether you believe it or not, is irrelevant, as long as scholars and historians believe it...

Something is not necessarily true just because scholars and historians believe it is true.
That is the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.

In argumentation theory, an argumentum ad populum (Latin for "appeal to the people") is a fallacious argument that concludes that a proposition is true because many or most people believe it: "If many believe so, it is so."

This type of argument is known by several names,[1] including appeal to the masses, appeal to belief, appeal to the majority, appeal to democracy, appeal to popularity, argument by consensus, consensus fallacy, authority of the many, bandwagon fallacy, Argumentum ad populum - Wikipedia

 

[Trailblazer]

There is no scriptural basis whatever for belief in an "immortal soul" surviving consciously after death.

The Bible is not the only scripture.
There is plenty of scriptural basis for belief in an "immortal soul" surviving consciously after death in the Writings of Baha'u'llah.

You don't have to believe that what Baha'u'llah wrote came from God, neither do I have to believe that the Bible came from God.

 

[Trailblazer]

The Christian belief is that Jesus died on the cross as a sacrifice for the sins of humanity. Someone had to pay for those sins according to Jewish beliefs.

Can you cite some verses from the Torah that say that someone had to pay for our sins?

So for a brief moment Jesus supposedly and metaphorically claimed that he was "responsible" for all the sins of the world, hence the "worst sinner".

Even if Jesus did die to atone for our sins that does not mean Jesus felt "responsible" for our sins thus Jesus was a sinner. That is a non sequitur.

A non sequitur (Latin for "it does not follow"), in formal logic, is an invalid argument.[1] In a non sequitur, the conclusion could be either true or false (because there is a disconnect between the premises and the conclusion), but the argument nonetheless asserts the conclusion to be true and is thus fallacious. Formal fallacy - Wikipedia

 

[Ponder This]

You said infinitive. Did you mean to say infinite punishment, punishment that lasts forever?

Tell me about it. I have a tenant who owed me about $18,000 in the fall of 2021. His debt could have never been paid off and I was not going to forgive that debt but luckily I got all the money from a federal government program for landlords affected by Covid.

So you mean to say that there is infinite punishment because some people deserve that, but forgiveness is possible because God is loving?

Yes, temporarily infinite, but forgiveness is possible.