Eucharist

[Thief]

once more.....Do this to remember Me

the Passover was intended to remember Moses and the Exodus

the Carpenter usurped the ceremony

a new covenant

it's not a scene of miracle

but a profound change in the direction of belief toward God

 

[Unveiled Artist]

• The verb "to be" in all its conjugated forms has always "gotten" people in one way or another.
• If Jesus had said, at the last supper, while holding the matzah or the cup of wine, "Take eat, this bread symbolizes my body, broken for you" and "Take drink, this wine symbolizes my blood, shed for you", the disciples might not have noticed the difference, but the tradition passed down through the centuries would have been quite different,wouldn't it have?

Ya know? here's a thought that just now occurred to me ... it could be "literal stuff" overload--although I actually think that's not it.
My personal religious background is diverse: Southern Baptist till 8; Nazarene, Pentecostal Holiness, and Assembly of God till 10, Lutheran (Missouri Synod) till 19; non-active till 23; Lutheran again and Roman Catholic Charismatic till 30; and conversion to RC when 30. When I was about 30, I "discovered" the Shroud of Turin. Carried Ian Wilson's "The Shroud of Turin" with me when I visited Ray Stedman's Peninsula Bible Church. Showed my book to an much older church member there and he didn't think much of it because, he said, Christians don't benefit from objects. I was (a) hurt that he pooh-poohed my show-and-tell, and (b) amazed because I knew for a fact that he believed that the Bible "IS" the Word of God". I controlled my disappointment but remember that I told him something like: "Yeah, objects can interfere with a person's relationship with God; I've met people who actually worship their Bibles."

I think a person who takes the Bible literally thinks they're safe from idolatry, because--after all--who thinks a book, even if it's the Bible, can be an idol?

They wouldn't have, no. Probably not. I do see how it is important to be differentiated though. In christianity it "is" about the blood and body rather than a symbol of it. So the breaking of the bread isn't a symbol. It's the Mass and consummation of mass itself.

As for the Jewish view, I don't know. Jesus' disciplines didn't eat and drink real blood and flesh, so I think they disagree with the idea of it since the actual cannibalism is irrelevant.

 

[Thief]

They wouldn't have, no. Probably not. I do see how it is important to be differentiated though. In christianity it "is" about the blood and body rather than a symbol of it. So the breaking of the bread isn't a symbol. It's the Mass and consummation of mass itself.

As for the Jewish view, I don't know. Jesus' disciplines didn't eat and drink real blood and flesh, so I think they disagree with the idea of it since the actual cannibalism is irrelevant.

they thought it was relevant

when His ministry began....He used that metaphor
eat My flesh
drink My blood

that congregation riled against Him
took Him to a high ledge to throw Him down

 

[Unveiled Artist]

they thought it was relevant

when His ministry began....He used that metaphor
eat My flesh
drink My blood

that congregation riled against Him
took Him to a high ledge to throw Him down

There was no cannibalism involved. Bread and wine was communion. Blood and body was his passion. They can't be inseparable. The precedents would be on the passion because passion already existed before the bread was broken.

Edit. Take that back. The passion already was predicted before the bread was broken.

 

[Thief]

There was no cannibalism involved. Bread and wine was communion. Blood and body was his passion. They can't be inseparable. The precedents would be on the passion because passion already existed before the bread was broken.

Edit. Take that back. The passion already was predicted before the bread was broken.

I suspect you are clinging to the 'magic' of the ritual

but no.....there is no magic
it's just bread and wine

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I suspect you are clinging to the 'magic' of the ritual

but no.....there is no magic
it's just bread and wine

I'm not sure where magic comes to play here-not sure how to define it actually outside of stage magic. There's nothing wrong with rituals. We have rituals daily.

The bible explains it in common sense terms. Its the mix of OT and NT, Passion, Church, grace, repentance, and faith. These things aren't symbols to believers but facts. If you feel these things are magic then yeah, the Eucharist would be magic. Since they are not, the Eucharist isn't either.

Trying to think of a good example if you can follow it before commenting for a minute.

Do you believe in god as an entity?
Do you believe that god is in your heart and can't be separated from you?
Your life cannot exist without god?

If so, your body is the accident and god the essence. You're not separate from god. If someone told you god and you are symbols of each other, that may or may not startle you because god would be so real that would be like saying you have no life.

The bread and wine is life/death/resurrection. It's the body and christ is the essence. The last meal is what brings the communion together in Mass. The essence is what makes it a Church.

It being inanimate or a thing may be hard to get passed but doesn't make it less true just probably a bit off from what you may be used to. I wouldn't call your relationship with god magic or symbolism. I don't see the meal of christ any different.

If this isn't an example of you, as long as you understand it it's all fine. As long as you get the context.

 

[whirlingmerc]

I know this will always be a silly debate.

Do you catholics and non-catholics actually believe you/they are drinking real blood and eating real flesh (cannibalism)? Please say no.

I asked a priest this but I wanted to hear what you guys thought.

A reformed protestant view is that Jesus is spiritually present and the elements and remembrance is a proclamation of Christ and both a spiritual participation with Christ physically participation symbolically through the bread and wine elements.

Seems to me in the gospels 'this is my body' can be literary poetic device for a new meaning. After all the passover bread and drink represented deliverance from Egypt and slavery and now it would represent a greater deliverance from sin. Jesus also used symbolic language like 'this cup represents the new covenant sealed in my blood'

 

[Unveiled Artist]

A reformed protestant view is that Jesus is spiritually present and the elements and remembrance is a proclamation of Christ and both a spiritual participation with Christ physically participation symbolically through the bread and wine elements.

Seems to me in the gospels 'this is my body' can be literary poetic device for a new meaning. After all the passover bread and drink represented deliverance from Egypt and slavery and now it would represent a greater deliverance from sin. Jesus also used symbolic language like 'this cup represents the new covenant sealed in my blood'

Thanks. I was thinking it could be compared to mana in the OT. The bread wasn't a symbol of nourishment but actual nourishment-food. It came from god and played the same role as the Eucharist as nourishment for salvation of god's chosen people.

In this case, the Church isn't in the desert or anything like that, of course. The literalness of food/salvation is just the same.

Do you think?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Thanks. I was thinking it could be compared to mana in the OT. The bread wasn't a symbol of nourishment but actual nourishment-food. It came from god and played the same role as the Eucharist as nourishment for salvation of god's chosen people.
In this case, the Church isn't in the desert or anything like that, of course. The literalness of food/salvation is just the same.
Do you think?

• Jesus says as much, regarding the manna from Heaven given daily to Israel during its wandering in the desert after liberation: John 6:22-71
• However, IMO, the Visible Church IS "in the desert" as long as it is in this world.
  
• When I receive the Host, I join all of those in the Invisible Church who have received and will receive nourishment from our Father in Heaven given in and through Jesus.
• And when I receive the Blood of Jesus, I join all of those in the Invisible Church, past and present, who have been liberated and nourished by our Father in Heaven in and through Jesus.
  
• To those who do not believe as I do, I have engaged in "magical thinking". To those who believe as I do, I have engaged in "spiritual thinking"

 

[Unveiled Artist]

• Jesus says as much, regarding the manna from Heaven given daily to Israel during its wandering in the desert after liberation: John 6:22-71
• However, IMO, the Visible Church IS "in the desert" as long as it is in this world.
  
• When I receive the Host, I join all of those in the Invisible Church who have received and will receive nourishment from our Father in Heaven given in and through Jesus.
• And when I receive the Blood of Jesus, I join all of those in the Invisible Church, past and present, who have been liberated and nourished by our Father in Heaven in and through Jesus.
  
• To those who do not believe as I do, I have engaged in "magical thinking". To those who believe as I do, I have engaged in "spiritual thinking"

Physical desert. Like drinking and eating human blood and flesh, I'm sure you know this?

All of what you said is interconnected with actual physical church and physical bread and wine. The isrealites ate actual food which was not seperate from the experience and source who gave it.

Rather than invisible, it's interconnected. Why invisible?

 

[Terry Sampson]

Why invisible?

Church invisible - Wikipedia

• The invisible church or church invisible is a theological concept of an "invisible" Christian Church of the elect who are known only to God, in contrast to the "visible church"—that is, the institutional body on earth which preaches the gospel and administers the sacraments. Every member of the invisible church is saved, while the visible church contains some individuals who are saved and others who are unsaved. According to this view, Bible passages such as Matthew 7:21-27, Matthew 13:24-30, and Matthew 24:29-51 speak about this distinction.
• This concept has been attributed to St Augustine of Hippo as part of his refutation of the Donatist sect.[1] He was strongly influenced by the Platonist belief that true reality is invisible and that, if the visible reflects the invisible, it does so only partially and imperfectly (see Theory of Forms).[2] Others question whether Augustine really held to some form of an "invisible true Church" concept.[3]
• The concept was insisted upon during the Protestant reformation as a way of distinguishing between the "visible" Roman Catholic Church, which according to the Reformers was corrupt, and those within it who truly believe, as well as true believers within their own denominations. John Calvin described the church invisible as "that which is actually in God's presence, into which no persons are received but those who are children of God by grace of adoption and true members of Christ by sanctification of the Holy Spirit... [The invisible church] includes not only the saints presently living on earth, but all the elect from the beginning of the world." He continues in contrasting this church with the church scattered throughout the world. "In this church there is a very large mixture of hypocrites, who have nothing of Christ but the name and outward appearance..." (Institutes 4.1.7)
• Roman Catholic theology, reacting against the Protestant concept of an invisible Church, emphasized the visible aspect of the Church founded by Christ, but in the twentieth century placed more stress on the interior life of the Church as a supernatural organism, identifying the Church, as in the encyclical Mystici corporis Christi[4] of Pope Pius XII, with the Mystical Body of Christ.[5] In Catholic doctrine, the one true Church is the visible society founded by Christ, namely, the Catholic Church under the global jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome

 

[Thief]

nay to all.....

the ritual is a metaphor

the kingdom is not of this world
if you partake....you are partaking in something you cannot see

rituals are done by those who 'feel' a need to 'do' something
to bring God and heaven closer

it's false

if you want to bring God and heaven closer
Do unto others as you have them do unto you

you have never needed anything else or anything more

 

[Thief]

the clergy and congregation would say nay......
but I say unto you

invite your fellowman to what you are able to provide

and then....should he ask why your generosity
THEN tell him of your Motivation....your Inspiration

such is the blood
such is the body

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Church invisible - Wikipedia

• The invisible church or church invisible is a theological concept of an "invisible" Christian Church of the elect who are known only to God, in contrast to the "visible church"—that is, the institutional body on earth which preaches the gospel and administers the sacraments. Every member of the invisible church is saved, while the visible church contains some individuals who are saved and others who are unsaved. According to this view, Bible passages such as Matthew 7:21-27, Matthew 13:24-30, and Matthew 24:29-51 speak about this distinction.
• This concept has been attributed to St Augustine of Hippo as part of his refutation of the Donatist sect.[1] He was strongly influenced by the Platonist belief that true reality is invisible and that, if the visible reflects the invisible, it does so only partially and imperfectly (see Theory of Forms).[2] Others question whether Augustine really held to some form of an "invisible true Church" concept.[3]
• The concept was insisted upon during the Protestant reformation as a way of distinguishing between the "visible" Roman Catholic Church, which according to the Reformers was corrupt, and those within it who truly believe, as well as true believers within their own denominations. John Calvin described the church invisible as "that which is actually in God's presence, into which no persons are received but those who are children of God by grace of adoption and true members of Christ by sanctification of the Holy Spirit... [The invisible church] includes not only the saints presently living on earth, but all the elect from the beginning of the world." He continues in contrasting this church with the church scattered throughout the world. "In this church there is a very large mixture of hypocrites, who have nothing of Christ but the name and outward appearance..." (Institutes 4.1.7)
• Roman Catholic theology, reacting against the Protestant concept of an invisible Church, emphasized the visible aspect of the Church founded by Christ, but in the twentieth century placed more stress on the interior life of the Church as a supernatural organism, identifying the Church, as in the encyclical Mystici corporis Christi[4] of Pope Pius XII, with the Mystical Body of Christ.[5] In Catholic doctrine, the one true Church is the visible society founded by Christ, namely, the Catholic Church under the global jurisdiction of the bishop of Rome

Your words?

Everyone has different interpretations-myself included.

 

[metis]

In Catholicism, the bread & wine is the "essence" of the body & blood of Jesus:
es·sence
/ˈesəns/
noun
the intrinsic nature or indispensable quality of something, especially something abstract, that determines its character.

 

[sojourner]

Do you believe that god is in your heart and can't be separated from you?
Your life cannot exist without god?

If so, your body is the accident and god the essence. You're not separate from god. If someone told you god and you are symbols of each other, that may or may not startle you because god would be so real that would be like saying you have no life

I really like this. The whole universe is created from “God stuff.” We are “of God.” We are inexorably connected with the essence that is God. Eucharist is how we ritually acknowledge and celebrate that connection — that “sameness.”

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I really like this. The whole universe is created from “God stuff.” We are “of God.” We are inexorably connected with the essence that is God. Eucharist is how we ritually acknowledge and celebrate that connection — that “sameness.”

You squeezed my book into three or four sentences. Well said. Thanks.

 

[Thief]

I still see confusion...….

as if participants here assume God and heaven comes to you
just because you participated in a ritual

nay

 

[Unveiled Artist]

I still see confusion...….

as if participants here assume God and heaven comes to you
just because you participated in a ritual

nay

It's god is already in you individually, but when in a Mass, it makes christ present (per scripture) as a group. Communion is the last supper (accidents). The presence-what joins the Mass-is christ himself.

Without ritual, we could sit on our tuffin and look at the stars and say "wow. I'm so spiritual". That, develop practices that express your faith with people or without and live and let live.

 

[Thief]

It's god is already in you individually, but when in a Mass, it makes christ present (per scripture) as a group. Communion is the last supper (accidents). The presence-what joins the Mass-is christ himself.

Without ritual, we could sit on our tuffin and look at the stars and say "wow. I'm so spiritual". That, develop practices that express your faith with people or without and live and let live.

nay at all points

we are born in sin
(sin means...without)

and we live that way

you can sit if you like
but
Do unto others as you would have them do unto you
is proactive
you first

no ritual required