European Human Rights Court Backs Sharia Blasphemy Law

[icehorse]

90% of evangelic Christians think homosexuality is a crime. Are they misreading The Bible?

Who friggin' cares? I'm no fan of the bible either, but that's a different issue.

Seriously, I get this response a lot, and it always feels like the "two wrongs make it right" argument. Can you explain why you think your mention of the bible is at all germane?

 

[Yerda]

Just to make sure, though.

Does everyone here understand that the ECHR has ruled that the application of the Austrian law doesn't breach the Convention on Human Rights?

This is not a case of rendering the Austrian law enforceable elsewhere in Europe. Some media reports got this point wrong. The case wasn't about that, the court hasn't done that and the court won't do that.

Rather, all that happened was that an Austrian woman got fined for violating the law in Austria (which is strict on these hate speech matters owing to its Nazi past i.e. there are cultural peculiarities here that need put in context) and appealed to the supranational Court in Strasbourg insisting that Austria had breached her human rights.

The ECHR simply ruled that, in their judgment, the decision of the Austrian court was made in accordance with their own valid legal norms and didn't breach the European Convention.

There is no suggestion being made that other European countries should emulate the Austrian law, only that the Austrian law doesn't violate the Convention in the eyes of the ECHR (which is tasked with interpreting and adjudicating on the Convention).

This seems to sum up the case precisely.

Who friggin' cares? I'm no fan of the bible either, but that's a different issue.

Seriously, I get this response a lot, and it always feels like the "two wrongs make it right" argument. Can you explain why you think your mention of the bible is at all germane?

Sometimes people get a little tired watching people pick on Muslims.

Do you have any comment on what @Vouthon had to say in the quote I posted above?

 

[oldbadger]

I'm sorry, that's simply not the case. I responded to your rant concerning the proper understanding of the Quran.

==

I'm a free speech advocate, I've been clear about that. Islam leads the way among the major religions that would like to promote the idea of blasphemy. So if you want to say I'm beating the drum again, I'm fine with that. I'll beat the drum against any one or any group that tries to curtail free speech.

But in your rant you were/are criticising the EU Court! The EU Court is not interested in the idea of blasphemy, but about provocative, inciting, defamatory, hate mongering rants.

In any event, you will need to get used to good judgement from judges.

 

[icehorse]

But in your rant you were/are criticising the EU Court! The EU Court is not interested in the idea of blasphemy, but about provocative, inciting, defamatory, hate mongering rants.

In any event, you will need to get used to good judgement from judges.

You're conflating different behaviors. Blasphemy is not equal to provocative speech is not equal to incitement is not equal to defamation is not equal to hate mongering.

Next, criticizing ideas ought to - be any reasonable standard - be held as especially distinct from criticism of a person. If the court isn't making those distinctions then IMO the laws are quite worrisome, or the courts got it wrong. What's next? Should it be illegal to criticize political ideas?

 

[Altfish]

Which if I recall addressed the degree of Christian disapproval of homosexuality. How many would want its criminalization is a different question.


All criminal acts are immoral, but not all immoral acts are criminal. Fornication for example.

This is not a hard distinction to grasp.


Your questions were mostly conflations. Yes, Evangelical Christianity considers homosexual acts to be immoral. As does all forms of orthodox (small o) Christianity. But your claim that mainstream Christians by in large support its recriminalization is something you've evidently pulled out of thin air.


The Islamic world isn't exactly LGBT friendly.

You may dislike Christian sexual ethics, but Christians are not the ones dropping homosexuals head first off of multistory buildings. The reality, is that in many Muslim majority states sodomy is still very much a criminal offense. Sometimes a capital one.

I didn't say anything about Islam being gay friendly; I jus was stating that Christians have little to be proud of.

 

[Notanumber]

Different societies have different standards for what they consider to be acceptable. Western European countries tend to be very wary of speech denigrating minorities, for obvious reasons.

Which empowered ideology is taking advantage of that?

 

[Notanumber]

I haven't suggested that the answer is Marxism or anarchism or extreme identity politics or whatever a "radical fringe left" means. Who are these radical fringe leftists? Can you identify some prominent examples for me?

Rather, I advocate a broad alliance of centrists - centre-left and centre-right - as the anti-Brexit movement here in the UK is doing, uniting Conservatives, Labour politicians, Greens, Scottish Nationalists and Liberal Democrats in common cause.

The radical left here in Britain would, I suppose, be Corbyn supporters ('Momentum' as they call their movement) and I am not a supporter of their political programme or general approach to policymaking or political action.

‘Momentum’ has managed to convert Corbyn from being a lifelong Brexiteer into a Remoaner by dangling the carrot of power in front of his nose.

 

[Notanumber]

My point exactly, dumdum. If we had more education and discourse we would have less bigotry and violence.

I would agree with that if by education you mean disseminating the truth and facts instead of propaganda.

 

[Notanumber]

You mean the Blairites and Camerons?

No, there is a better model than the stale old 'third way politics' - namely, a model bred and born in response to rightwing populism.

Consider the SNP in Scotland. Centre-left, moderate populists - with an international, pro-EU agenda yet using the language of nationhood.

Or indeed the Peoples Vote movement in the UK that I just mentioned - a grassroots, cross-party movement that is gathering speed and managed to hold the largest rally in British history since the 2003 Iraq war protests, just earlier this month (myself in their midst). Luckily, Remainers in the UK have something like 70%-80% (except our dear @Rival ) of the youth behind us, in other words we have the future.

Chucking Chequers is the answer according to this well-informed man.

 

[Koldo]

A good judgement.
Talk like that can provoke, even incite acts of hatred, violence and terrorism, Imo.

Good for the court.

Posts like yours can provoke, even incite acts of hatred, violence and terrorism imo.

Should you be punished for this post of yours ?

 

[oldbadger]

Posts like yours can provoke, even incite acts of hatred, violence and terrorism imo.

Should you be punished for this post of yours ?

What..... like saying 'Good for the Court?'
I like you........ you made me smile.

 

[Father Heathen]

I would agree with that if by education you mean disseminating the truth and facts instead of propaganda.

Of course; logic and evidence. What sort if propaganda do you think I would've meant?

 

[Koldo]

What..... like saying 'Good for the Court?'
I like you........ you made me smile.

You are in favor of limiting free speech. We are talking about fundamental rights here. This is the sort of thing that can lead into violence. Should we apply your standard to your post ?

 

[Notanumber]

Of course; logic and evidence. What sort if propaganda do you think I would've meant?

The British Broadcasting Company likes to think of itself as a high-ranking educator but in the following article aimed at children there is no mention of the major role that Islam played in the slave trade.

Black History Month: What was the slave trade? - CBBC Newsround

I believe a mention of the Arab Muslim slave trade of Africans would have been worthy of a mention if only for balance.

http://originalpeople.org/the-arab-muslim-slave-trade-of-africans-the-untold-story/

Propaganda is used to paint western heritage in a bad light instead of teaching the full facts.

 

[oldbadger]

You are in favor of limiting free speech. We are talking about fundamental rights here. This is the sort of thing that can lead into violence. Should we apply your standard to your post ?

Fundamental rights?
If somebody whipped up emotion in a crowd against you for some reason, you'd be screaming for justice, I reckon.

And if thugs want to get violent over common sense legislation, then they need convicting and locking away from peaceful people.

 

[Koldo]

Fundamental rights?
If somebody whipped up emotion in a crowd against you for some reason, you'd be screaming for justice, I reckon.

And if thugs want to get violent over common sense legislation, then they need convicting and locking away from peaceful people.

Was there a call for violence in the speech in question ? Please do not compare apples to oranges. THIS is common sense.

 

[oldbadger]

Was there a call for violence in the speech in question ? Please do not compare apples to oranges. THIS is common sense.

The Court's Judgement in upholding the Austrian Courts verdict was common sense.

I don't know where you live, but where I live people like Mrs S cause much harm with their incriminating hateful rants. Our local Post Office is owned and run by a HINDU, who suffers when people like Mrs S shout their rubbish about ISLAM! Just imagine that sometimes when people like her shout their rubbish that your shop front got trashed and your staff got insulted and threatened when open?

What you don't seem to understand is that CARELESS TALK CAN COST LIVES. Mrs S was full of it.

From the Court's judgement....
"The Court found in conclusion that in the instant case the domestic courts carefully balanced the applicant's right to freedom of expression with the rights of others to have their religious feelings protected, and to have religious peace preserved in Austrian society.

"Lastly, since Mrs S. was ordered to pay a moderate fine and that fine was on the lower end of the statutory range of punishment, the criminal sanction could not to be considered as disproportionate.

 

[Notanumber]

This is what happens when a Muslim tries to integrate into western society.

Glasgow Muslim shopkeeper stabbed to death hours after Easter message | Daily Mail Online

In this case, would it be the victim or the attacker that would have been most likely to support Blasphemy laws?

 

[Koldo]

The Court's Judgement in upholding the Austrian Courts verdict was common sense.

I don't know where you live, but where I live people like Mrs S cause much harm with their incriminating hateful rants. Our local Post Office is owned and run by a HINDU, who suffers when people like Mrs S shout their rubbish about ISLAM! Just imagine that sometimes when people like her shout their rubbish that your shop front got trashed and your staff got insulted and threatened when open?

What you don't seem to understand is that CARELESS TALK CAN COST LIVES. Mrs S was full of it.

From the Court's judgement....
"The Court found in conclusion that in the instant case the domestic courts carefully balanced the applicant's right to freedom of expression with the rights of others to have their religious feelings protected, and to have religious peace preserved in Austrian society.

"Lastly, since Mrs S. was ordered to pay a moderate fine and that fine was on the lower end of the statutory range of punishment, the criminal sanction could not to be considered as disproportionate.

The Court's Judgment only helps to incite more hatred and supporting it has a similar effect. THIS might cost lives in itself. I don't think you get it. Keep doing this and people will rally together fight for their rights. So, congrats on inciting violence ? How should you be punished ?

 

[Notanumber]

This is an example of Sharia censorship in the UK currently.

Fortunately, we have some political leaders prepared to speak the truth.

Gerard Batten is one of them.

Anne Marie Waters is another.