European Union: the lounge-loving and elitist Left has been defeated

[Magic Man]

The Truth is that the only President who loved peace was JFK and they eliminated him. The same elitist cabal did.
After him...all presidents, right or left, they were all pro-wars.

PS: Oriana Fallaci once wrote: an answer should be as short as a miniskirt: Short enough to be interesting, and long enough to cover the topic.

Sorry...you know how much I appreciate and value your history knowledge and wisdom...

The elitist cabal didn't eliminate JFK. An average citizen did. It's true that America has been very much pro-war since WWII. On that we agree. I'm just failing to understand why you blame Democrats and let Republicans off the hook, when Republicans are much worse on the issue.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

The French voted for RN also because they are disappointed in Macron and in his pro-war speeches.

You very much overestimate the people. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you would talk to these voters of RN, not a single one had Putin or Ukraine on their minds when they decided to vote for RN (or against Macron - depending how you look at it).

Just like here in Belgium. Vlaams Belang, the same type of fascist / racist extreme right wingers, had a lot of votes as well. Many people were questioned during exit polls and general street reporting. Literally nobody mentioned Putin, Russia, Ukraine or WW3 as the reason why they voted extreme right wing.

Instead, the reasons they mentioned are all pretty much about intolerance and borderline racism. And "anti-establishment" based on lies they heard about in the extreme right wing propaganda.

The French people are disgusted by war because WW2 traumatized them.

Please. Not a single voter alive today actually lived through that. 99.99% of voters today don't know war at all. In fact, that's part of the problem in western Europe when it comes to gaining support for defense investment. People have become soft due to living in peace for so long that they are taking it for granted.

People in France today are much more "traumatized" by the likes of attacks like in Paris in Bataclan and Charlie Hebdo and alike.
WW2 is "ancient history".

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Yes, that describes a lot of the right-wing, like Trump, for instance.

Exactly.

It reminds me of how Putin first justifies his illegal war with Ukraine by saying that they are "nazi's" and that Ukraine requires "denazification".
Some time later, in an election in the Netherlands the neo-nazi's win big time and what does Putin do? Congratulate them and says how pleased he is with the outcome.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Because Putin wants peace

I laugh, but it actually isn't funny at all.
It's actually quite depressing.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Bull****. Its a failed political ideology , extremely dangerous, and always leads to authoritarianism or abject disaster.

Now back to the fact of it's track record.

Socialism: The Failed Idea That Never Dies

Socialists have successfully managed to distance themselves from all real-world examples of failed socialist experiments.

www.forbes.com

You need to be a bit careful here. Socialism has different connotations in europe then it has in the us.
To the point that they are actually very different.

A "socialist" here in Belgium is a capitalist and doesn't want anything to do with communism, for example.
Socialists here are very much about things like social security, universal health care and much government involvement in all things of "public interest" like public transport, health, education,.. But again, by no means are they against capitalism. In fact most of them are wealthy enterpreneurs themselves.

 

[Estro Felino]

The elitist cabal didn't eliminate JFK. An average citizen did.

The elitist cabal had both JFK and RFK killed. Using proxies. And by the way, there were at least two bullets coming from two opposite directions in the Zapruder video of Dallas. So...I won't believe idiocies just because the CIA tells me to believe them.

I believe my eyes only. And God is my witness. Because in the afterlife there is real justice. Not this fake justice on Earth.

It's true that America has been very much pro-war since WWII. On that we agree. I'm just failing to understand why you blame Democrats and let Republicans off the hook, when Republicans are much worse on the issue.

No...they are both really bad at peacekeeping. Really bad. History shows it.

Only very few politicians are above all this. Kennedy, Tulsi Gabbard...that's why the elitist cabal hates them and persecutes them.

 

[Estro Felino]

You very much overestimate the people. I can pretty much guarantee you that if you would talk to these voters of RN, not a single one had Putin or Ukraine on their minds when they decided to vote for RN (or against Macron - depending how you look at it).

It has nothing to do with Putin.
The French don't want to be sent to fight in the steppe, in a stupid, idiotic war artificially created by an elitist gang from the US.

Many people were questioned during exit polls and general street reporting. Literally nobody mentioned Putin, Russia, Ukraine or WW3 as the reason why they voted extreme right wing.

Rome is not that distant. Why don't you have a trip to Rome and interview random people on the street? I suggest Roman suburbs.
Ask them: "do you prefer Putin or Soros?"
I guess the answers will open your eyes...

Instead, the reasons they mentioned are all pretty much about intolerance and borderline racism. And "anti-establishment" based on lies they heard about in the extreme right wing propaganda.

I mean...they are just courageous patriots, that's all.

Please. Not a single voter alive today actually lived through that. 99.99% of voters today don't know war at all. In fact, that's part of the problem in western Europe when it comes to gaining support for defense investment. People have become soft due to living in peace for so long that they are taking it for granted.

People in France today are much more "traumatized" by the likes of attacks like in Paris in Bataclan and Charlie Hebdo and alike.
WW2 is "ancient history".

I do know they repel war. Period.

 

[Magic Man]

The elitist cabal had both JFK and RFK killed. Using proxies.

Your belief in conspiracy theories like this explains a lot. There is no "elitist cabal".

And by the way, there were at least two bullets coming from two opposite directions in the Zapruder video of Dallas. So...I won't believe idiocies just because the CIA tells me to believe them.

I believe my eyes only.

No, you believe conspiracy theories because they fit your worldview.

And God is my witness. Because in the afterlife there is real justice. Not this fake justice on Earth.


No...they are both really bad at peacekeeping. Really bad. History shows it.

Only very few politicians are above all this. Kennedy, Tulsi Gabbard...that's why the elitist cabal hates them and persecutes them.

Then your disdain for democrats and support for republicans doesn't make sense. You at least admit that they're equally bad. (The reality is republicans are worse, but for these purposes, "equally bad" works.)

Also, there is no "elitist cabal". There is definitely a group of rich people who do whatever they can to game the system in their favor. They're republicans and use right-wing politicians and agendas for that purpose.

 

[Estro Felino]

There is definitely a group of rich people who do whatever they can to game the system in their favor.

That's what I mean. You can call them whatever you like. The definition is unchanged.

They're republicans and use right-wing politicians and agendas for that purpose.

They are from both parties.

 

[Magic Man]

That's what I mean. You can call them whatever you like. The definition is unchanged.

The terminology is important, as is your focus. First, "elitist cabal" is the terminology of conspiracy theories and anti-semitism.

Second, you support republicans and are vociferously against democrats. You support the right wing and denounce the left wing. The group of rich people I'm referring to are right wing and use the right wing to push their agenda. So, the "elitist cabal" is the republicans/right-wingers, but you support them.

They are from both parties.

No. There are democrats who support the current system, which is part of the problem. But they are not the ones pushing the agenda you're arguing against. Democrats for the most part are arguing for things like universal healthcare, better wages for the lower and middle classes, higher taxes on the rich, a better social safety net in general, better restrictions on corporations, etc.

 

[Estro Felino]

The terminology is important, as is your focus. First, "elitist cabal" is the terminology of conspiracy theories and anti-semitism.

First of all, I didn't create the term. Gabbard did.

Second, you support republicans

No...just Trump. The rest...I don't like them.

and are vociferously against democrats.

No, just some. I like Bernie Sanders.

You support the right wing and denounce the left wing. The group of rich people I'm referring to are right wing and use the right wing to push their agenda. So, the "elitist cabal" is the republicans/right-wingers, but you support them.

Yeah...all democrats are poor. Penniless.

No. There are democrats who support the current system, which is part of the problem. But they are not the ones pushing the agenda you're arguing against.

Yes, they are. Biden is giving billions of dollars to Mr. Zely, to continue the war on the tsar, whereas millions of Americans can't afford proper heatlhcare.
These democrats should be ashamed of themselves. They make me vomit.
God will judge them in the other life.

Democrats for the most part are arguing for things like universal healthcare, better wages for the lower and middle classes, higher taxes on the rich, a better social safety net in general, better restrictions on corporations, etc.

Just words.
I have never seen something concrete.

 

[Left Coast]

Imagine still believing the Freemasons are relevant.

 

[Estro Felino]

Imagine still believing the Freemasons are relevant.

If they are so irrelevant...why do they hide in Italy?
None of them declares openly they are Freemasons. Except very few cases.

 

[Left Coast]

If they are so irrelevant...why do they hide in Italy?
None of them declares openly they are Freemasons. Except very few cases.

Based on my direct experience of so many things you have claimed being totally wrong, I highly doubt your summary here is accurate.

 

[Magic Man]

First of all, I didn't create the term. Gabbard did.

She may have used that specific combination, but that term, "cabal" and "elites" have been around for a long time and used in various conspiracy theories.

No...just Trump. The rest...I don't like them.

No, just some. I like Bernie Sanders.

This makes absolutely no sense. They are diametrically opposed.

Yeah...all democrats are poor. Penniless.

I'm struggling to figure out why you think this is a valid reply to what I said.

Yes, they are. Biden is giving billions of dollars to Mr. Zely, to continue the war on the tsar, whereas millions of Americans can't afford proper heatlhcare.

America is giving money to Ukraine to help fight off the invasion by Russia. The fact that you call it a "war on the tsar" says so much. Here are the facts:

Russia invaded Ukraine in an attempt to take it over.
There was absolutely no reason for the invasion, simply because Putin wanted Ukraine.
Russia is waging war against Ukraine.
Ukraine is defending itself against that war by Russia.

Blaming the lack of healthcare on Biden or democrats is silly. Obama was the one to implement a system that sought to resolve that or at least help it. It was republicans who pushed back and tried to get it stopped. Trump vowed to get rid of the Affordable Care Act. He is against instituting a system that would fix the lack of healthcare. Republicans in general are against that. Support for universal healthcare is a democratic idea.

Using the donations to Ukraine to blame Biden for a lack of universal healthcare makes zero sense.

These democrats should be ashamed of themselves. They make me vomit.
God will judge them in the other life.

This is what I mean. Republicans are the ones against the things you say you support, and yet here you are saying democrats make you sick and that God will judge them. This kind of rhetoric should be aimed at republicans, if you support universal healthcare and less warmongering.

Just words.
I have never seen something concrete.

First, there are concrete examples.

Second, regardless of that, republicans don't even offer those words. You have one party that at least pays lip service to those ideals, even if they don't do enough to achieve them. You have another party that opposes those ideals in words and in practice.

And yet you support the party that opposes them and oppose the party that supports them. This is my point. Your position makes no sense.

 

[Estro Felino]

America is giving money to Ukraine to help fight off the invasion by Russia. The fact that you call it a "war on the tsar" says so much. Here are the facts:

Yes, it's a war on the tsar to steal the resources of Russia from Russians.
Donbas is just a pretext. Donbas and Crimea are regions where people speak Russian. These people want to remain the Russian Federation.
So the bully here is Kiev, not Moscow.
Kiev which is aided by the warmongers overseas.

Russia invaded Ukraine in an attempt to take it over.
There was absolutely no reason for the invasion, simply because Putin wanted Ukraine.
Russia is waging war against Ukraine.
Ukraine is defending itself against that war by Russia.

If the US stopped giving weapons to Ukraine, the war would end today. So I blame Biden.

Blaming the lack of healthcare on Biden or democrats is silly. Obama was the one to implement a system that sought to resolve that or at least help it. It was republicans who pushed back and tried to get it stopped. Trump vowed to get rid of the Affordable Care Act. He is against instituting a system that would fix the lack of healthcare. Republicans in general are against that. Support for universal healthcare is a democratic idea.

Using the donations to Ukraine to blame Biden for a lack of universal healthcare makes zero sense.

This is what I mean. Republicans are the ones against the things you say you support, and yet here you are saying democrats make you sick and that God will judge them. This kind of rhetoric should be aimed at republicans, if you support universal healthcare and less warmongering.

First, there are concrete examples.

Second, regardless of that, republicans don't even offer those words. You have one party that at least pays lip service to those ideals, even if they don't do enough to achieve them. You have another party that opposes those ideals in words and in practice.

And yet you support the party that opposes them and oppose the party that supports them. This is my point. Your position makes no sense.

These are just words.
I will like the Democrats when they implement the free universal healthcare system.
Until then, contempt.
Especially because those billions spent on war can be used for granting free healthcare.

 

[Magic Man]

Yes, it's a war on the tsar to steal the resources of Russia from Russians.

That is a truly crazy take. So, Russia invaded Ukraine in an attempt to take it over...to fight against a war on the "tsar" to steal resources of Russia from Russians. I have no idea how you make sense of this.

Donbas is just a pretext. Donbas and Crimea are regions where people speak Russian. These people want to remain the Russian Federation.
So the bully here is Kiev, not Moscow.
Kiev which is aided by the warmongers overseas.

So, Russia invaded Ukraine in order to take it over. Russia is by far bigger and better equipped and was expected to take over easily.

Yet, Ukraine is the bully. Again, I have no idea how you make this make sense.

If the US stopped giving weapons to Ukraine, the war would end today. So I blame Biden.

Maybe. I mean, if you want to blame Biden for helping Ukraine not be taken over by another country, that's fine. I'm not sure he deserves that much credit, though.

These are just words.
I will like the Democrats when they implement the free universal healthcare system.
Until then, contempt.
Especially because those billions spent on war can be used for granting free healthcare.

You somehow missed the entire point. I'll lay it out more plainly.

Democrats: At the very least pay lip service to the things you support.
Republicans: Oppose the things you support, both in words and in action.

You: Support republicans and denounce democrats vociferously.

This position makes no sense. I can understand criticizing democrats for not doing enough or being more talk than action. That makes sense. But if you support universal healthcare, you oppose Trump and republicans. You at least somewhat support democrats because they're the only ones likely to move in the right direction on that. And yet, your support is given to the ones opposing the thing you want.

 

[Estro Felino]

That is a truly crazy take. So, Russia invaded Ukraine in an attempt to take it over...to fight against a war on the "tsar" to steal resources of Russia from Russians. I have no idea how you make sense of this.

So, Russia invaded Ukraine in order to take it over. Russia is by far bigger and better equipped and was expected to take over easily.

Yet, Ukraine is the bully. Again, I have no idea how you make this make sense.

Maybe. I mean, if you want to blame Biden for helping Ukraine not be taken over by another country, that's fine. I'm not sure he deserves that much credit, though.

You somehow missed the entire point. I'll lay it out more plainly.

Democrats: At the very least pay lip service to the things you support.
Republicans: Oppose the things you support, both in words and in action.

You: Support republicans and denounce democrats vociferously.

This position makes no sense. I can understand criticizing democrats for not doing enough or being more talk than action. That makes sense. But if you support universal healthcare, you oppose Trump and republicans. You at least somewhat support democrats because they're the only ones likely to move in the right direction on that. And yet, your support is given to the ones opposing the thing you want.

This thread is about European politics. Do not derail it, thank you.
If you want to talk about politics, talk about European parties.

 

[Magic Man]

This thread is about European politics. Do not derail it, thank you.
If you want to talk about politics, talk about European parties.

You brought up democrats. Now because you can't actually respond to a point (because it ruins your narrative), all of a sudden "don't talk about that, stick to this".

But the point is the same. When talking about democrats and republicans, it's specific to America, but the overall divide is the same. You support the right wing in Europe, which is about the same as republicans. You oppose the left wing in Europe, which actually supports the things you claim to. If anyone is an "elitist cabal" working against the common people, it's the rising far right.

 

[Estro Felino]

You brought up democrats. Now because you can't actually respond to a point (because it ruins your narrative), all of a sudden "don't talk about that, stick to this".

But the point is the same. When talking about democrats and republicans, it's specific to America, but the overall divide is the same. You support the right wing in Europe, which is about the same as republicans. You oppose the left wing in Europe, which actually supports the things you claim to. If anyone is an "elitist cabal" working against the common people, it's the rising far right.

The so called European far-right would never be against "free universal healthcare"...to begin with.