Europe's multiculturalist (authoritarians?), trying to make mass immigration mandatory?

[icehorse]

Sounds easy doesn't it?
But what are the UKs core values?
Lower taxes for the rich; hate foreigners; unfair election system; The press owned by non-tax paying foreigners, etc
I think you'll find that a high proportion of Sun readers think being gay should be illegal.

So, please define the core values and we'll make sure that Sun and Mail readers abide by them.

In a couple of different ways it seems your arguments here boil down to "it's already flawed, why not make it worse" ?

As for core values, I would guess that most folks in the UK value what we learned in the enlightenment, would you disagree with that?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Ok, I did say a "rough definition", but that's a bit too rough.

Is it?
Imo being a biblical literalist is pretty fundamentalist.

For example there are YECs, and that's a very small number. So back to "Christian fundamentalists":

I did a little internet searching:

About 70% of the US population is Christian of some sort
Of those, about 25% are "findamentalists". so total is about 18%, but still, that's a BIG number.

But the Bible - awful as it is - doesn't strongly advocate for theocracy, whereas the Quran does.

Now is a good time to clarify what you (or that site you're quoting from) defines "fundamentalist"

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Do you think Europeans have legitimate concerns about the mass immigrations of the last several decades?

I think the very problem in (populist) politics is the vagueness of questions such as this.

There are legitimate / rational concerns about some types of immigrations and there are illegitimate / irrational concerns about others.
It depends.

People should really stop painting with such a broad brush all the time.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

As far as immigrants are concerned, to me I think immigrants need to assimilate to the core values of their host culture.

I disagree and I also think the entire idea of such "assimilation" is discriminatory and unconstitutional.
For example, I as a native Belgian am well within my rights to take on the core values of other cultures. As long as I don't break the law, I have that freedom.

Why would an immigrant be any different?

The only thing citizens of this country are required to do (be it natives or immigrants) is not break the law. That's it.

For example, in a recent poll, half the Muslims in the UK think that being gay should be illegal.

Many native christians might think that as well. Are you going to deport them also or whatever?
Also, not all muslims in western countries are immigrants. A native born can convert to islam as well and hold those opinions also.

Anybody, immigrant or native, has the right to think whatever they want.
The line is not drawn at what people think. The line is drawn at what people do.

Unless you wish to advocate for thought crimes?
In any case, I hope you see the point being made.
You are singling out one specific type of immigrant and faulting them for a specific idea, but are completely ignoring that such ideas by no means are exclusive, or necessarily exclusive, to those immigrants and that plenty of natives hold the exact same idea.

So what gives?

Instead of rambling against "immigrants" in this case, why not just argue against homofobia instead, regardless of where it comes from?

To me, that should be a red flag, and if that's a value that a potential immigrant holds, that immigrant should not be allowed entry.

To me, your entire case here is a giant red flag.
What are you going to do with native people who hold the same opinion?
And why would you treat an immigrant any differently in that respect from a native person?

I always find such so hypocritical....
It's like the "immigration proposals" from Vlaams Belang (far right party in Belgium). They advocated for immigrants to take a "test" to show they have some knowledge about Belgian culture, customs and history before they can even try to apply for asylum / citizenship. People opposing that party who constantly try to expose their hatred and hypocracy to the populace took that very test and went out on the streets and had hundreds of native belgian people take the test. More then half FAILED. So what's the use here?

That reminds me of your statement above. It's literally holding immigrants to a different standard then natives. That's discriminatory and unconstitutional. It, ironically, RAPES the very core values (like equality, freedom,... etc) you are claiming to try and protect.

That's a specific example of the broader principle of agreeing with, honoring and defending the core values of the host culture. Thoughts?

My thoughts are outlined above.
If you think homofobia is something that doesn't exist within the native population of some random western country, then I can only conclude you are living under some rock.

Additionally, I consider holding immigrants to a different standard then native people to be a very rape of the core values you are claiming to care so much about.

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

If a potential immigrant wants to promote Sharia once they've arrived, what should we do about that, if anything?

If a native of the country converts to islam and then wants to promote sharia, then what should we do about that, if anything?

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

I think Islamic core values are different than all the others you listed, and to some degree all the others you listed share some similarities that Islam does not. For example, Islam sets itself up - in its most basic claims - to be unalterable, and unrefinable. I think Muslim immigrants have the hardest time assimilating, because Islam is so rigorously tribal and so sure that it IS the final word.

Are the only muslims you've ever met members from the Taliban or something?
Sounds like it.

 

[Altfish]

In a couple of different ways it seems your arguments here boil down to "it's already flawed, why not make it worse" ?

As for core values, I would guess that most folks in the UK value what we learned in the enlightenment, would you disagree with that?

I see you ducked my question.
What happened in the enlightenment?

 

[SkepticThinker]

I think Islamic core values are different than all the others you listed,

I don't. And I work with a ton of Muslims.

Even if they are though, that just helps make my point.

and to some degree all the others you listed share some similarities that Islam does not. For example, Islam sets itself up - in its most basic claims - to be unalterable, and unrefinable. I think Muslim immigrants have the hardest time assimilating, because Islam is so rigorously tribal and so sure that it IS the final word.

Sounds a lot like Christianity to me, as well.

 

[Sakeenah]

I mostly agree with you. But where do you stand on the question of conflicting core values. I brought up the gay issue a few posts back. Then there is the issue of theocracy as opposed to secularism. If a potential immigrant wants to promote Sharia once they've arrived, what should we do about that, if anything?

Some of the other members have responded to what you brought up better than I can.

I think values will differ, which makes sense. Different cultures have different values. We can't expect people to let go of their culture and religion and assimilate. I support integration, and majority of Muslim immigrants are more than happy to do that.
As an orthodox Muslim woman my values are different than yours vice versa, but we should both respect each other, not force each other's culture/ religion upon each other and abide by the laws of the country.

As I mentioned I'm probably more orthodox then your average Muslim immigrant, so I don't think Europeans have to worry about immigrants coming over to take over their countries so they can build an Islamic State. Yes, there are some extremist Muslims that think that way, but they are a minority. The vast majority just want to live their life in peace, they have the same hope, fears and dreams as any other human. The solution is to find common ground, even though we might have different opinions, as humans we can always find ways to connect if we let go of the hate and arrogance.

Just wondering if you have any Muslim friends, colleagues or neighbours?

 

[icehorse]

I disagree and I also think the entire idea of such "assimilation" is discriminatory and unconstitutional.
For example, I as a native Belgian am well within my rights to take on the core values of other cultures. As long as I don't break the law, I have that freedom.

Why would an immigrant be any different?

The only thing citizens of this country are required to do (be it natives or immigrants) is not break the law. That's it

I'm going from memory here, I wasn't able to track down my book on US immigration policies, but I think the broad strokes that follow are correct enough for our purposes:

Back 100 years ago the US needed to gain strong backs to do manual labor, and immigration was focused to serve that purpose.

But in recent decades, the main purpose of immigration in the US has been to gain mostly "white collar" talent. (I'm making a distinction here between official immigrants and temporary itinerant farm workers.)

A key point here is - once again - IMMIGRATION IS NOT A RIGHT ! The host country is well within its rights to accept or deny applicants as it sees fit. There are a number of criteria that the US immigration department uses to qualify (or not) applicants. Things like criminal records, lack of skills, or being a member of a totalitarian organization are used to disqualify candidates.

The point is that the US wants immigrants who will benefit the country. Why would we want to allow immigrants who want to undermine secularism?

Of course I understand that citizens can legally change their mind. You can decide to join the communist party if you want to. But that's a different topic than immigration.

 

[icehorse]

Are the only muslims you've ever met members from the Taliban or something?
Sounds like it.

To reiterate, a simple definition of an Islamist is someone who wants Sharia. Roughly 30% to 40% of Muslims worldwide are Islamists. And Muslims living in Europe roughly hold true to this 30-40% statistic.

So how about a little nuance and good faith here? You really think we can't distinguish between the Taliban and Islamists, ffs?

 

[icehorse]

I see you ducked my question.
What happened in the enlightenment?

I didn't duck anything, ffs. How about sticking to debating the ideas?

And no, I'm not going to get you up to speed on enlightenment values. FWIW, when I engage in debates of RF I frequently do a little homework when a poster introduces an idea I'm not up to speed on. That feels like debating in good faith. Asking me to explain the enlightenment to you feels like a bad faith request, I'm not going to respond to that.

 

[icehorse]

I don't. And I work with a ton of Muslims.

Even if they are though, that just helps make my point.

Again, hundreds of millions of Muslims are Islamists, something like 30-40%. Those percentages are also true of Muslims living in the West. The "west" is more or less founded on secularism which is in direct opposition to Sharia.

So the handful of Muslims you have encountered might not be Islamists, but in science we call your experience "anecdotal evidence", and such evidence is of limited value.

 

[icehorse]

Some of the other members have responded to what you brought up better than I can.

I think values will differ, which makes sense. Different cultures have different values. We can't expect people to let go of their culture and religion and assimilate. I support integration, and majority of Muslim immigrants are more than happy to do that.
As an orthodox Muslim woman my values are different than yours vice versa, but we should both respect each other, not force each other's culture/ religion upon each other and abide by the laws of the country.

As I mentioned I'm probably more orthodox then your average Muslim immigrant, so I don't think Europeans have to worry about immigrants coming over to take over their countries so they can build an Islamic State. Yes, there are some extremist Muslims that think that way, but they are a minority. The vast majority just want to live their life in peace, they have the same hope, fears and dreams as any other human. The solution is to find common ground, even though we might have different opinions, as humans we can always find ways to connect if we let go of the hate and arrogance.

Just wondering if you have any Muslim friends, colleagues or neighbours?

See my answers in the 3 posts directly above.

 

[Yerda]

Why would we want to allow immigrants who want to undermine secularism?

So that they fit in?

 

[SkepticThinker]

Again, hundreds of millions of Muslims are Islamists, something like 30-40%. Those percentages are also true of Muslims living in the West. The "west" is more or less founded on secularism which is in direct opposition to Sharia.

Cool. So how many of them have been pushing for Sharia law in the West?

And on a side note, how many millions of American Christians are in favour of Biblical law, do you think?

So the handful of Muslims you have encountered might not be Islamists, but in science we call your experience "anecdotal evidence", and such evidence is of limited value.

I'm starting to think you haven't interacted with very many Muslims. I've worked with a ton of them over the last 20 years or so.

But you're right, we're talking anecdotes here. So how many Muslims are pushing for Sharia law in the places they are immigrating to?

 

[icehorse]

Cool. So how many of them have been pushing for Sharia law in the West?

As I'm sure you understand, there are probably a small numbers of activists, but if the activists make any head way, then there will be a HUGE number of supporters.

And on a side note, how many millions of American Christians are in favour of Biblical law, do you think?

That is indeed a problem. But why does it matter in this thread? This seems like a "since it's not currently perfect, let's make it worse" sort of argument? Can you clarify why you think your question matters?

 

[SkepticThinker]

As I'm sure you understand, there are probably a small numbers of activists, but if the activists make any head way, then there will be a HUGE number of supporters.

Is that what's happening, or not so much?

That is indeed a problem. But why does it matter in this thread? This seems like a "since it's not currently perfect, let's make it worse" sort of argument? Can you clarify why you think your question matters?

Why does it matter in this thread? Because the US (and probably the UK and other European countries)are filled with a lot of people who think, for [your] example, that being gay should be illegal (and in fact, it used to be!). And you're talking about not allowing immigrants to settle in countries if they believe essentially the same thing. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially since you haven't given me any indication or demonstration that there is some big clamoring for sharia law to be introduced into the places where these people are immigrating to.

 

[Altfish]

I didn't duck anything, ffs. How about sticking to debating the ideas?

And no, I'm not going to get you up to speed on enlightenment values. FWIW, when I engage in debates of RF I frequently do a little homework when a poster introduces an idea I'm not up to speed on. That feels like debating in good faith. Asking me to explain the enlightenment to you feels like a bad faith request, I'm not going to respond to that.

Calm down.

I just can't believe that you are going back 4 centuries.

 

[icehorse]

Is that what's happening, or not so much?

It happens fairly frequently in Europe, that seems like a good "canary in the coalmine" for the rest of us.

Why does it matter in this thread? Because the US (and probably the UK and other European countries)are filled with a lot of people who think, for [your] example, that being gay should be illegal (and in fact, it used to be!). And you're talking about not allowing immigrants to settle in countries if they believe essentially the same thing. That doesn't make sense to me. Especially since you haven't given me any indication or demonstration that there is some big clamoring for sharia law to be introduced into the places where these people are immigrating to.

Again, I'm not saying the west doesn't have problems. I agree that we already have theocrats and homophobes and misogynists.

Why make those problems worse? Do you think we have some moral obligation to accept immigrants?