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Europe's multiculturalist (authoritarians?), trying to make mass immigration mandatory?

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Meanwhile, what core tenets of Islam are you talking about?
You can take the same quiz I offered our immortal friend, see post #145.

Your criticism of Islam is outsized.
Well this is the heart of our disagreement, correct? I don't think my criticism is out of line at all.

This is silly. It's like you are straining not to understand the point.

Please do not put words in my mouth. Listen, I'm trying to have a civil debate here. Why can't you refrain from behaviors like this? Just stick with debating the ideas, you have demonstrated nothing that leads me to believe your opinions are any more valid than mine. I understand that you have multiculturalism on your side, but I think that the way multiculturalism has been implemented has been horrible, I'm not a fan.

I understand statistics. If I talked to 1000 Muslims (that would be A LOT), they would represent two millionths ( 2/ 1,000,000) of the Muslim population. That's not statistically meaningful.

Another parroted phrase from your gurus that has no application here.

Wait, what? I'm sincerely trying to understand your point here. Are you saying that it doesn't matter what Islam's core ideas are?

Another parroted buzzword. Will you stop?

For months now I've been trying to find out what name we should give to people who use ideas like "oppressed vs. oppressor" and standpoint theory (lived experience) to underpin their arguments. It strikes me that you use those ideas. I'm not at all attached to the word "woke", I'm happy to use another word to classify those ideas. What word or phrase would you suggest?

Yet you don't want to let young women leave those countries to live in a freer society. If you actually cared about them, you'd stop cheering on discrimination against them.

Again, putting words in my mouth. This is actually a good point that - as far as I can recall - is new to the debate. I think immigration officials should prefer Muslim women immigrants over Muslim men. Women are far less violent than men.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I recognize it in both. And I'm sure there could be good discussions in which both are considered.
A standard applied to Muslims
shouldn't be done in a vacuum.
If adopted, it would be broadened.
If that turns out to be wrong, then
it's fundamentally flawed, wreaking
havoc on a broader scale.
But this thread is about Islam and the Quran.
You asked a question about the Bible.
I responded to it.
 
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RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
In this case Poland wants to defend its culture. It does NOT want Islamists to destroy Polish culture. The EU wants to force Poland (and all EU countries), to accept the mass immigration of Islamists who want to destroy European cultures.

To be clear, Islamists are NOT A RACE. This is not about race. It's about ideas. Islamists promote misogyny, homophobia, anti-semitism, tribalism, and theocracy.


I think this is disingenuous nonsense. Where racism is disguised as concern for culture, it's usually the least cultured individuals doing the shouting.

I recall recent news coverage of a bunch of English hooligans, masquerading as patriots at some far right rally, trying to sing Elgar's "Land of Hope and Glory" and failing to remember a single line between them.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I think this is disingenuous nonsense. Where racism is disguised as concern for culture, it's usually the least cultured individuals doing the shouting.

I recall recent news coverage of a bunch of English hooligans, masquerading as patriots at some far right rally, trying to sing Elgar's "Land of Hope and Glory" and failing to remember a single line between them.
Muslims are not a race. Islam is a set of ideas that people can choose to claim allegiance to or not.

Islam contains a lot of bad ideas, and immigration is not a right. So why should a country be forced to accept immigrants who are devoted to ideas that are antithetical to the host country?
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Muslims are not a race. Islam is a set of ideas that people can choose to claim allegiance to or not.

Islam contains a lot of bad ideas, and immigration is not a right. So why should a country be forced to accept immigrants who are devoted to ideas that are antithetical to the host country?


The history of humanity is a history of migration, and the idea that a nation can erect barriers to preserve a monoculture that never really existed in the first place, is dangerous nonsense. Further to this, nationalism in Europe has rarely been a force for good, so excuse me if I'm deeply suspicious of the sort of anti-immigrant rhetoric which is always designed to inflame tensions.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
The history of humanity is a history of migration, and the idea that a nation can erect barriers to preserve a monoculture that never really existed in the first place, is dangerous nonsense. Further to this, nationalism in Europe has rarely been a force for good, so excuse me if I'm deeply suspicious of the sort of anti-immigrant rhetoric which is always designed to inflame tensions.
Immigration policies have been in place for decades, you think we should abandon those policies?
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
It's physically risky to be an apostate from Islam. Hmmm. Don't you think that's a problem? Don't you think that kinds of makes my case for me? Why would I want to let people who hold such a violent ideology enter my society?

It simply means that some Muslims, like some followers of other religions and even some atheists, are dangerously intolerant of freedom of religion. It doesn't say anything unique about Muslims or Islam. It also doesn't negate that most Muslims live peacefully and abide by the laws of the countries they're in.

So moderate Muslims have to reform Islam. What other choices do you see?

It's easy to try to dictate to moderate Muslims from a comfortable distance that they should "reform Islam," but how that could actually be done, especially when it could put their lives at risk, is a different story.

Many people want to immigrate in search of a better life, more freedom, new experiences, etc. Not everyone is going to risk their life for an endeavor that they, as an individual, most likely won't be able to achieve within their lifetime, if ever.

Again, IMMIGRATION IS NOT A RIGHT! it seems that you're implying that immigration should be fair? Why is that? do host countries have some moral obligation to accept immigrants? Why should a country be forced to accept applicants that - by your own admission - might be hard line Islamists?

You didn't answer the question, which was not about hardline Islamists. I asked how your proposed approach would ensure that ex-Muslims, and now unorthodox Muslims (whom you might call "reformers") too, wouldn't be banned by the same laws you want to impose on Muslim applicants.

So, how would you do that? Or would you consider ex-Muslims and reformers an acceptable cost to keep all Muslims out and throw the former under the bus by enacting a law that would effectively ban them from living in secular countries whose laws matched their own secular, pluralist beliefs? If the latter, it seems to me that you're not in any position whatsoever to talk about "reforming" Islam, nor are your proposals part of any solution. They're just an extension and manifestation of the problem of religious intolerance.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
You can take the same quiz I offered our immortal friend, see post #145.

It's on you to defend your own ideas. I'm not doing the work for you. What fundamental ideas in Islam are relevant to immigration policy?

Well this is the heart of our disagreement, correct? I don't think my criticism is out of line at all.

Then where is your criticism of Christian or Jewish immigration?

Please do not put words in my mouth. Listen, I'm trying to have a civil debate here. Why can't you refrain from behaviors like this? Just stick with debating the ideas, you have demonstrated nothing that leads me to believe your opinions are any more valid than mine. I understand that you have multiculturalism on your side, but I think that the way multiculturalism has been implemented has been horrible, I'm not a fan.

I haven't put any words in your mouth. You seem unable to grasp a very basic concept. It takes one black swan to falsify the claim that all swans are white or "whiteness is fundamental to swans." Can you genuinely not grasp that?

I understand statistics. If I talked to 1000 Muslims (that would be A LOT), they would represent two millionths ( 2/ 1,000,000) of the Muslim population. That's not statistically meaningful.

See above.

Wait, what? I'm sincerely trying to understand your point here. Are you saying that it doesn't matter what Islam's core ideas are?

I'm saying you keep applying words and concepts you parrot from other people and are trying to apply them to this conversation when they don't work.

For months now I've been trying to find out what name we should give to people who use ideas like "oppressed vs. oppressor" and standpoint theory (lived experience) to underpin their arguments. It strikes me that you use those ideas. I'm not at all attached to the word "woke", I'm happy to use another word to classify those ideas. What word or phrase would you suggest?

But I didn't say anything about "oppressed vs. oppressor" or "standpoint theory." I made a common sense point borne out of how obvious it is that your perception of Islam is silly and narrow and informed by little to no real world exposure to actual Muslims living their faith out in the real world outside your head or the youtube videos you watch.

Again, putting words in my mouth. This is actually a good point that - as far as I can recall - is new to the debate. I think immigration officials should prefer Muslim women immigrants over Muslim men. Women are far less violent than men.

Oh okay, so you're against discriminating against immigrants purely on the basis of their faith now? This is progress!
 

Debater Slayer

Vipassana
Staff member
Premium Member
I appreciate this reply. Otherwise it's just me whining about stuff I deep down know is not really that big of a deal.

I personally grew up in an extremely multiculturalist country (to the point where it was actually stated as a federal government policy or initiative to ensure that mass immigration was both celebrated and that indigenous peoples were at least acknowledged as traditional custodians of the land (white man's guilt translated into government policy which had been going on for decades at this point).

I'm still relatively young - and I can specifically remember that my late 90s / early 2000s primary school mandatory curriculum was heavy with teaching social justice (it was actually explicitly stated in paperwork which what intended to inform our parents about what we were learning, which I remember totally enraged my Central European immigrant father). I can remember us kids being forced not only to learn basic history relevant to our European heritage (which I don't entirely disagree with - but emphasis on the Nazis as being the apex of all human evil was, what I later understood a little rich and somewhat inappropriate for primary school kids who don't fully grasp what was actually going on with that regime and a total neglect of any kind of teaching of the unmitigated horrors of communism, African dictatorships, hundreds of years of Muslim brutality etc).

I can recall silly exercises such as writing apology letters to hypothetic indigenous peoples in our otherwise all-white/European ancestry school for the evils that we supposedly continue to inflict upon them with our inherent ignorance of their culture that our ancestors spent 200 years destroying and continuing to destroy with our mere presence. There were also a lot of really weird things they put us up to including but not limited to learning traditional customs and practices of indigenous people. For a 7 year old child, it was really confusing for me - then high school kind of doubled down on the whole thing and elaborated on why it was all necessary, and taught rabidly, against all forms of racism and xenophobia - we were in the wake of 9/11 and a lot of serious Islamophobia was taking place in our society (again - I agree that it was well intentioned, racism and xenophobia are horrible and need to be discouraged, but something about the whole process seemed run along the lines of propagandistic political indoctrination rather than teaching us history and critical thinking skills alongside it - there was a clear and obvious agenda as far as I'm concerned).

You flash forward a decade or so, and I find my friends and peers realizing that their BA Degrees in Theatre and Dramatic Arts didn't exactly pay off the way they had hoped and decide to immerse themselves in disciplines such as Social Work which is rich with extreme left-wing ideological anti-white racism (among other things) - several of my friends found themselves committing social suicide by ranting about what "stupid idiotic little white girls" they were who would never truly understand other cultures and would always be a part of the problem simply for existing - this typically had adverse consequences for their mental health, which I observed deteriorate as they alienated more well adjusted people in their lives in favor of engaging in a kind of psycho-political meltdown that left them with not much more than a self-loathing disposition which was unnecessary and baseless and a credential or two in which they could perpetuate the same hatred towards themselves and other European descendants through their social work and careers in immigration. I can't help but feel that my generation got pretty much brainwashed by our society and culture into hating ourselves by our politicians, media and education system. Very unfairly too. So much misinterpretation of even the propaganda and agenda took place as well - such as friends of mine becoming forever embittered by the understanding that they were apparently being taught that, "because you're white and have a European heritage, it means you automatically have no valid culture - just a toxic one that needs to be deconstructed for the greater good" - a misunderstanding of course, but you can probably see the problem that I'm trying to convey here.

I know this post is a pretty anecdotal reply and I'm writing it at 4 in the morning and it probably it's the best (or most elaborate) representation of what I was trying to say, but I felt that you posed some good post questions and input and that it warranted a timely reply.

Sorry if this post sucks lol.

Thanks for sharing your perspective in so much detail. I appreciate that you've elaborated on it to this extent.

I'm not in favor of glorifying or demonizing any culture wholesale, European or otherwise. My view is that all cultures have pros and cons, and ultimately, all exhibit aspects of human nature, which in turn has its pros and cons and is basically universal, even if expressed differently across different cultures and even if it sometimes contains a lot of variation among different individuals.

I support teaching the history of one's culture as objectively as possible, although I realize that complete objectivity is essentially impossible to have. Still, as far as I can see, embellishment or glorification and demonization or categorical condemnation of an entire culture are both unnuanced and unreasonable.
 

Yerda

Veteran Member
Muslims are not a race. Islam is a set of ideas that people can choose to claim allegiance to or not.

Islam contains a lot of bad ideas, and immigration is not a right. So why should a country be forced to accept immigrants who are devoted to ideas that are antithetical to the host country?
Fair enough.

I don't think it is so much that we are being forced to accept immigrants so much as we (by 'we' I mean rich people) depend on a constant conveyer belt of labour to exploit. A blanket ban on Muslims coming in does seem bigoted (and unnecessary) to me. However, I'm happy to concede that we shouldn't allow people to enter our countries who wish harm upon us, including Islamists.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
t's on you to defend your own ideas. I'm not doing the work for you. What fundamental ideas in Islam are relevant to immigration policy?
Be brave and make a factual claim. I'd be surprised if you aren't aware of these two foundations of Islam, but maybe you aren't?

So far your arguments amount to general SJW platitudes, you've demonstrated no specific knowledge of Islam.
I haven't put any words in your mouth
wrong
You seem unable to grasp a very basic concept.
Again with the insults. You really cannot help yourself can you?

Any more insults from you and this conversation is over, and you will have shown your true colors, unable to hold a civil debate.

It takes one black swan to falsify the claim that all swans are white or "whiteness is fundamental to swans." Can you genuinely not grasp that?

Yes, when applicable, that is a useful logical construct, I'm on board :) But how does it apply to this conversation?

I'm saying you keep applying words and concepts you parrot from other people and are trying to apply them to this conversation when they don't work.

This is starting to feel hopeless, and I suspect you're not debating in good faith.

If you want to start fresh, and recap any points that you think are not understood, I will be happy to participate. But I will no longer respond to this sort of trash talk. You're not interesting enough to wade thru this obfuscating crap of yours.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Fair enough.

I don't think it is so much that we are being forced to accept immigrants so much as we (by 'we' I mean rich people) depend on a constant conveyer belt of labour to exploit. A blanket ban on Muslims coming in does seem bigoted (and unnecessary) to me. However, I'm happy to concede that we shouldn't allow people to enter our countries who wish harm upon us, including Islamists.

Yeah the cheap labor idea is an important one - not a pleasant one, but important. I don't think people in the US are being "forced" yet, but the OP is about how Poland is facing that prospect.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Be brave and make a factual claim. I'd be surprised if you aren't aware of these two foundations of Islam, but maybe you aren't?

I'm not repeating myself for you.

So far your arguments amount to general SJW platitudes, you've demonstrated no specific knowledge of Islam.

Ditto, except your arguments just amount to IDW anti-woke platitudes.


Yet you can't cite any examples.

Again with the insults. You really cannot help yourself can you?

That wasn't an insult. You seem genuinely to not understand what I'm explaining to you.

Any more insults from you and this conversation is over, and you will have shown your true colors, unable to hold a civil debate.

I haven't insulted you, though. This debate has been civil on my end. You've a series of absurd and extreme claims, including defending literal bigotry and labeling my statements with silly parroted buzzwords that don't apply. At a certain point I call a spade a spade.

Yes, when applicable, that is a useful logical construct, I'm on board :) But how does it apply to this conversation?

I've explained this to you, man. I told you to go outside and talk to real Muslims to give your one-dimensional, caricature understanding of Islam some depth. Do you genuinely not comprehend that?

This is starting to feel hopeless, and I suspect you're not debating in good faith.

Oh geez Louise. I'm debating in good faith. I just have minimal patience for bull ****.

If you want to start fresh, and recap any points that you think are not understood, I will be happy to participate. But I will no longer respond to this sort of trash talk. You're not interesting enough to wade thru this obfuscating crap of yours.

If you choose not to respond further, that's up to you. The reader can determine who made the better arguments.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
I've read the actual immigration policies, and I think you're just wrong.
And I assume you're going to demonstrate this with facts?

How many hours is devoted to assessing each application? Remember that MILLIONS of Muslims have immigrated to the UK in recent decades. Are you saying that hundreds of millions of hours have been devoted to assessing every applicant?
Not what I said. Go back and read what I wrote more carefully.

Strong words, care to back them up.
Go back and read your own posts.

And BTW, you still haven't answered the Islam 101 quiz.
Your meaningless leading questions are just distractions from the actual arguments. I won't play your games.
 

ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
And you are? Please take a look at your post #149 and then tell me about tone, ffs.
Not a single thing wrong with the tone of that post. Every claim I made was factual and delivered with no patronising tone whatsoever.

You are defending ethno-nationalism and making claims that are completely unsupported by any kind of facts. That's what you are doing.

I'm sorry if you interpret people making better arguments than yours to be patronising, but that's your problem. Not mine.
 
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Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
Tell me again what's wrong with defending your own culture?

I am for defending ones own culture when it comes from people forcing you to change, such as what happened under colonialism in many cases, or deliberately misrepresenting your culture in order to manufacture consent for the destruction of your culture.

People of different cultures living next door shouldnt be a problem as long as they don't infringe on your rights, and people choosing to join another culture out of interest isnt a problem either.

All cultures influence each other when they come into contact so natural influence of cultures arent a problem either. For instance we even use arab words in everyday language and have been infouenced by the muslim world in many ways whoch we have no problem with. In my community we have a large amount of muslims and I love it when my mom makes malay food which malay muslims brought with them.
 

RestlessSoul

Well-Known Member
Immigration policies have been in place for decades, you think we should abandon those policies?


Well they don’t seem to be working to anyone’s satisfaction, so perhaps we should at least rethink them.

For the record, I live in one of the most culturally and ethnically diverse cities in the world, and am daily reminded of how well people can get along with each other, even while being gaslit by mendacious right wing media.

London’s Moslem mayor - whose religion is immaterial to most voters - will almost certainly get re-elected this year because most Londoners think he’s doing a decent job in difficult circumstances, but you wouldn’t know that if you got your information from the London Evening Standard, or almost any other newspaper.
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
I am for defending ones own culture when it comes from people forcing you to change, such as what happened under colonialism in many cases, or deliberately misrepresenting your culture in order to manufacture consent for the destruction of your culture.

People of different cultures living next door shouldnt be a problem as long as they don't infringe on your rights, and people choosing to join another culture out of interest isnt a problem either.

All cultures influence each other when they come into contact so natural influence of cultures arent a problem either. For instance we even use arab words in everyday language and have been infouenced by the muslim world in many ways whoch we have no problem with. In my community we have a large amount of muslims and I love it when my mom makes malay food which malay muslims brought with them.

I mostly agree with that. What's your take on whether immigrants ought to try to assimilate? Learn the host language, follow the host's laws and such?
 

icehorse

......unaffiliated...... anti-dogmatist
Premium Member
Well they don’t seem to be working to anyone’s satisfaction, so perhaps we should at least rethink them.

Can you say more about them not working well? To me there are a lot of variations to consider: immigrants, refugees, workers...
 

Samael_Khan

Qigong / Yang Style Taijiquan / 7 Star Mantis
I mostly agree with that. What's your take on whether immigrants ought to try to assimilate? Learn the host language, follow the host's laws and such?
So here in South Africa we have loads of immigrants so I will point it out fron my experience.

Immigrants are often scared and wary of locals so I think locals should be friendlier and try and understand them so that we can be on friendlier terms. That would change a lot of the hostility between locals and immigrants. And locals shouldnt be condescending towards them. They come from a traumatic experience and should be welcomed so that they eventually assimilate in functionality (not reject their own culture) and have a positive view of the country and feel protected. And then everything else, such as learning the local language will naturally occur.

Now besides the above opinion of mine, and its context, below are direct answers to your questions:

For their own benefit, immigrants should learn the home language, otherwise they wont be able to function in society and will feel completely alien and fearful. It is often difficult, but their children will definitely learn the language.

Obviously, the should follow local laws. One doesnt go into anothers house and disrespect those people who help you by not following their laws. And they must definutely be legal immigrants. We have a problem like that here where Zama zamas (illegal miners from Zimbabwe) rape and kill people living around the mines they work. We have Nigerians who run prostitute rings and sell drugs. This disrespect of our local people, and the fact that little is being done about it, is a big reason behind the xenophobic attitudes of our people. The xenophobic attitude is wrong though because most foreign immigrants are amazing respectful people. But as usual, us humans are stupid idiots who are too lazy to judge people by their individual actions and lump all people who are in a certain nationality together.

I dont think that immigrants have to assimilate to our culture though. Multiculturalism is awesome. We have multiple cultures where I come from and they are all fasscinating.
 
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