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EV Movement, Plastic Bag Bans, etc. - Is Motive Really Environment or Control? (solar, recycling)

jbg

Active Member
Update in today's paper: New York on cusp of being first state in nation to ban natural gas under new budget — and residents are furious, (link), excerpts below:
New York Post said:
Gas stoves will soon become toast in New York, under a controversial new handshake deal between Democratic Gov. Kathy Hochul and Albany lawmakers that would make that state the first in the US to ban natural gas.
The pending budget deal mandates all new buildings under seven stories be fully electric by 2026 with larger structures following three years later.
While Hochul hailed the plan as a way to fight climate change, average New Yorkers said it was not so hot of an idea.
I know some will be quick to deride the source of the story, but either it's true or not. And the Governor and the two legislative leaders, under New York traditions of government, cannot be stopped, except by the courts, if they agree on something.
It seems that they are dedicated to making life harder for the average person, over elite concerns. So it goes.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
Update in today's paper: New York on cusp of being first state in nation to ban natural gas under new budget — and residents are furious, (link), excerpts below:

I know some will be quick to deride the source of the story, but either it's true or not. And the Governor and the two legislative leaders, under New York traditions of government, cannot be stopped, except by the courts, if they agree on something.
It seems that they are dedicated to making life harder for the average person, over elite concerns. So it goes.
No it seems to be kosher: New York aims to pass first statewide law banning natural gas in new building construction

But of course it only applies to new builds, starting 2 years from now. So it is not going to "ban natural gas" at all. Anyone who has already invested in gas appliances can continue to use them.

Given the lifetime of buildings, allowing gas to be installed from new locks in carbon emissions for half a century or more, or else forces people at some later point down the track to rip out their installations and fit completely non-fossil fuel ones - far more intrusive and costly.

Far from this being an "elite concern", it is a practical step towards the energy transition we all need to make for the sake of the next generation. (Unless one is someone that looks forward to the hurricane and fire season and doesn't have to pay for building insurance....:cool:)
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
It's a goofy conspiracy theory that doesn't deserve to be taken seriously.

"Science bad! Fossil fuel lobby good!" *drools on self*
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
I really do not understand why some people are so against leaving a habitable planet for their grandchildren and beyond. They will happily ignore the evidence and science and cling to crazy conspiracy theories.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I really do not understand why some people are so against leaving a habitable planet for their grandchildren and beyond. They will happily ignore the evidence and science and cling to crazy conspiracy theories.
Conspiracy theories are by their very nature non-disprovable.
So they endure. A friend is convinced that agents of either
government or an NGO surveil him everywhere. They work
in teams employed at every bank, store, & other business
he uses. They're on public sidewalks, streets, & everywhere,
watching him, giving him the eye, reporting on him, taking
pix of him. (He has a special ability to spot them.)
Why?
Because he was a critic of city government in the 80s.
And "those people" never forgive or forget. I've discussed
with him this narcissism & paranoia, & he even acknowledges
the possibility. But just like his personally witnessing Biden
stealing the election from Trump, the surveillance is real.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Conspiracy theories are by their very nature non-disprovable.
So they endure. A friend is convinced that agents of either
government or an NGO surveil him everywhere. They work
in teams employed at every bank, store, & other business
he uses. They're on public sidewalks, streets, & everywhere,
watching him, giving him the eye, reporting on him, taking
pix of him. (He has a special ability to spot them.)
Why?
Because he was a critic of city government in the 80s.
And "those people" never forgive or forget. I've discussed
with him this narcissism & paranoia, & he even acknowledges
the possibility. But just like his personally witnessing Biden
stealing the election from Trump, the surveillance is real.

He sounds very similar to my grandeur/paranoid schizophrenic brother in law. Has he sought treatment? Or is that offered by the government and so...
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
He sounds very similar to my grandeur/paranoid schizophrenic brother in law. Has he sought treatment? Or is that offered by the government and so...
He doesn't need treatment.
It's everyone else who can't see what's really going on.

Another friend was sent by his employer to a psychiatrist
after locking himself in a closet because a paranoid episode.
His treatment was merely trying to set the psychiatrist straight.
I liked the guy (now dead). Good person. But deeply troubled.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I really do not understand why some people are so against leaving a habitable planet for their grandchildren and beyond. They will happily ignore the evidence and science and cling to crazy conspiracy theories.
I agree with you 100%, but then studies have shown that there are varying degrees of empathy people have, and at least some of it appears to relate to genetics and some others relate to socialization.
 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member
I agree with you 100%, but then studies have shown that there are varying degrees of empathy people have, and at least some of it appears to relate to genetics and some others relate to socialization.
You believe empathy is necessary, but it's defeated by
belief in conspiracy theories. A cold calculating person
can see the necessity of a clean environment to avoid
disease & loss of natural environment.

I get the distinct impression from some posters who
feel they have empathy galore think they're superior
to the rest of us, especially the empathy challenged.
 
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Father Heathen

Veteran Member
I really do not understand why some people are so against leaving a habitable planet for their grandchildren and beyond. They will happily ignore the evidence and science and cling to crazy conspiracy theories.
It's because the fossil fuel lobby and their GOP puppets spoonfed propaganda to dopes, manipulating them into believing that ecological responsibility and scientific literacy are for commie cucks.
 

exchemist

Veteran Member
It's because the fossil fuel lobby and their GOP puppets spoonfed propaganda to dopes, manipulating them into believing that ecological responsibility and scientific literacy are for commie cucks.
To some degree. But a lot is to do with something more general: people's natural tendency towards complacency and self-centredness, an attitude which has been given the status of a high moral principle (!) by the Right in the USA, cf. Ayn Rand etc.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
Update in today's paper: New York on cusp of being first state in nation to ban natural gas under new budget — and residents are furious, (link), excerpts below:

I know some will be quick to deride the source of the story, but either it's true or not. And the Governor and the two legislative leaders, under New York traditions of government, cannot be stopped, except by the courts, if they agree on something.
It seems that they are dedicated to making life harder for the average person, over elite concerns. So it goes.
Good news is it effects the common Democrat voter as well.

But of course, our glorious wonderful Supreme Leader of the Great People's Republic of New York knows better than you do comrade.
 

Twilight Hue

Twilight, not bright nor dark, good nor bad.
It's because the fossil fuel lobby and their GOP puppets spoonfed propaganda to dopes, manipulating them into believing that ecological responsibility and scientific literacy are for commie cucks.
Yep. Oh so right comrade.

 

Revoltingest

Pragmatic Libertarian
Premium Member

jbg

Active Member
I'm not arguing that point.
Just advocating not opposing
useful green policies just because
Democrats are hypocrites.
Here are excerpts from the ruling by the Ninth Circuit Court of Appeals, on April 17, 2023 holding these kind of restrictions invalid as preempted by Federal legislation:

9th Circuit Court of Appeals said:
OPINION
BUMATAY, Circuit Judge:​
*2 By completely prohibiting the installation of natural gas piping within newly constructed buildings, the City of Berkeley has waded into a domain preempted by Congress. The Energy Policy and Conservation Act (“EPCA”), 42 U.S.C. § 6297(c), expressly preempts State and local regulations concerning the energy use of many natural gas appliances, including those used in household and restaurant kitchens. Instead of directly banning those appliances in new buildings, Berkeley took a more circuitous route to the same result. It enacted a building code that prohibits natural gas piping into those buildings, rendering the gas appliances useless.​
The California Restaurant Association, whose members include restaurateurs and chefs, challenged Berkeley's regulation, raising an EPCA preemption claim. The district court dismissed the suit. In doing so, it limited the Act's preemptive scope to ordinances that facially or directly regulate covered appliances. But such limits do not appear in EPCA's text. By its plain text and structure, EPCA's preemption provision encompasses building codes that regulate natural gas use by covered products. And by preventing such appliances from using natural gas, the new Berkeley building code does exactly that.​
We thus conclude that EPCA preempts Berkeley's building code's effect against covered products and reverse.​
*****************​
As these cases make clear, States and localities can't skirt the text of broad preemption provisions by doing indirectly what Congress says they can't do directly. EPCA would no doubt preempt an ordinance that directly prohibits the use of covered natural gas appliances in new buildings. So Berkeley can't evade preemption by merely moving up one step in the energy chain and banning natural gas piping within those buildings. Otherwise, the ability to use covered products is “meaningless” if consumers can't access the natural gas available to them within the City of Berkeley. See Engine Mfrs. ***'n, 541 U.S. at 255, 124 S.Ct. 1756.​
IV.
In sum, Berkeley can't bypass preemption by banning natural gas piping within buildings rather than banning natural gas products themselves. EPCA thus preempts the Ordinance's effect on covered products. We therefore reverse and remand for proceedings consistent with this opinion. On remand, the district court must reinstate the Association's state-law claims.​
California Rest. ***'n v. City of Berkeley, No. 21-16278, 2023 WL 2962921, at *1–9 (9th Cir. Apr. 17, 2023)​
Even on the merits, does anyone seriously think that strangling ourselves economically is going to do anything more than make some people feel virtuous? How many heat waves, blizzards, droughts, floods, etc. are going to be prevented? Remember, use of fossil fuels has given us the highest living standards in history. We are impoverishing ourselves for a nowhere to here policy.
 
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