Eve and the Serpent - Jews and Christians

[74x12]

nay

the target the serpent desired was the death in spirit

Man was made to die......always

eternal life is in spirit

acquisition of knowledge first
life AFTER death

I see what you're saying but there is no way God made people to die originally. God doesn't make death. It happens because of sin. This is why Jesus rose from the dead bodily to overcome death altogether both physical and spiritual.

 

[Thief]

I see what you're saying but there is no way God made people to die originally. God doesn't make death. It happens because of sin. This is why Jesus rose from the dead bodily to overcome death altogether both physical and spiritual.

nay.....

it's quite simple really

place yourself in God's situation......yes you can

Someone had to be FIRST...in mind and heart
First to say....I AM!

having done so, a quick look about and ......no one else
and no resopnse to that intial declaration
only His Echo

creation takes hold
it's God and the firmament
sure.....the creation responds to His Voice and his Touch
but it doesn't really......respond

there is no other alternative....Spirit and substance must join
and chemistry has rules

here we are

and one of the rules........we die
that much was in place on Day Six
Man as a species....no names, no garden, no law
go forth, be frutiful and multiply......dominate all things

but Man as a species does not look up
and the spirit of Man dies with him

so.....Chapter Two, Genesis
Adam is a CHOSEN son of God
Eve is a clone.....not born of woman.....no navel
and the experiment was intended to bring forth a SPIRIT in Man
that he be curious
even as death is a pending consequence

they passed the test

physically they died
we all do

but do you think?.......they perished in spirit

 

[Muffled]

I see what you're saying but there is no way God made people to die originally. God doesn't make death. It happens because of sin. This is why Jesus rose from the dead bodily to overcome death altogether both physical and spiritual.

I believe Jesus does not say why He is going to rise from the dead. Does Paul? I thought maybe in I Cor. 15 he intimates that it gives us hope of our resurrection.

1Cor 15:20 But in fact Christ has been raised from the dead, the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep.

 

[actsfourthirty]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

Note: Changed Satan to Serpent.

then how do you explain original sin and fallen human nature?

Also gen 3:15 the woman crushes his proud head?

 

[Muffled]

then how do you explain original sin and fallen human nature?

Also gen 3:15 the woman crushes his proud head?

I believe sin originated with the devil falling away from god and taking a bunch of angels with him.

I believe the devil lied to man and men believed him.

 

[WhoIsBeast 750]

then how do you explain original sin and fallen human nature?

Also gen 3:15 the woman crushes his proud head?

the head is a reference to the jana (and the severed head) according to the apocrypha

and cut off his head (ie John)

if you want to understand the deeper I know, look in your pism

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. It will crush your head, and you will crush his heel. "



I will put enmity between you and the church

and between thy seed and her seed.

it crushes Jan and Jan crushes her (like a snake's heel) in symbolism

So in the end the whore of Babylon will discover all her lies

yet it is misunderstood

 

[actsfourthirty]

the head is a reference to the jana (and the severed head) according to the apocrypha

and cut off his head (ie John)

if you want to understand the deeper I know, look in your pism

Genesis 3:15 And I will put enmity between you and the woman, and between your seed and her seed. It will crush your head, and you will crush his heel. "



I will put enmity between you and the church

and between thy seed and her seed.

it crushes Jan and Jan crushes her (like a snake's heel) in symbolism

So in the end the whore of Babylon will discover all her lies

yet it is misunderstood

who is the woman? Gen 3:15 and rev 12:1

 

[Brian2]

That does not add up. Knowing that good and evil exist, but lacking knowledge of what is what is useless. Also the threat they received is useless. For, how could they know that dying, or whatever happened to them if they ate the fruit, is not good?
I can imagine it went like this

Adam: That looks like a nice apple
God: That is the tree of knowledge of good and evil.
Adam: Why such a complicated name? Apple tree would be simpler.
God: Because you know there are things like good and evil, but you have no epistemology to tell which is which. I don't give names randomly, you know? SO, if I called it that, it means it gives you that knowledge
Adam: Cool, I like to learn new things
God: Don't even think about it. If you eat it, you will die
Adam: Cool. Dying sounds exciting, even though I have no idea what it means. Did you see someone else dying Eve? We could be the first
God: no no. Dying is not good.
Adam: I have to trust you to tell me what is good and not good. But if I do, why do I need a tree? Incidentally, if I am in your image, assuming you did not mean my physical hairless gorilla look, why don't I know already?
etc

Ciao

- viole

I agree that not knowing what death meant would make the whole warning from God silly, so I assume that A@E would have an idea of what it meant, probably from seeing the deaths of animals.
A@E surely would have an understanding of language and not be like growing children who are still learning that.
The idea that A@E did not know good and evil and so could not do what is wrong seems sort of right but they did know that they should not do what God had told them not to do.
It is the same with a child who is learning about good and evil and does what he knows his parents say not to do. They know they have done the wrong thing if they do it.

 

[viole]

I agree that not knowing what death meant would make the whole warning from God silly, so I assume that A@E would have an idea of what it meant, probably from seeing the deaths of animals.
A@E surely would have an understanding of language and not be like growing children who are still learning that.
The idea that A@E did not know good and evil and so could not do what is wrong seems sort of right but they did know that they should not do what God had told them not to do.
It is the same with a child who is learning about good and evil and does what he knows his parents say not to do. They know they have done the wrong thing if they do it.

Ok, but why all this cosmic drama for the equivalent of little clueless children having disobeyed?

ciao

- viole

 

[Brian2]

Ok, but why all this cosmic drama for the equivalent of little clueless children having disobeyed?

ciao

- viole

I was trying to say that they would have been more than the equivalent of little children but putting that aside the cosmic drama brought about by a cosmic agent, the serpent, not only showed the bigger picture of the problem of evil which was rearing it's head in God's Kingdom but also determined the direction that God had to send humanity and showed the reason for moral evil in the world.
It is something that God knew would happen and had prepared for but it has been and continues to be the hard way for us to learn about good and evil and be saved from it's consequences in us and the world.

 

[viole]

I was trying to say that they would have been more than the equivalent of little children but putting that aside the cosmic drama brought about by a cosmic agent, the serpent, not only showed the bigger picture of the problem of evil which was rearing it's head in God's Kingdom but also determined the direction that God had to send humanity and showed the reason for moral evil in the world.
It is something that God knew would happen and had prepared for but it has been and continues to be the hard way for us to learn about good and evil and be saved from it's consequences in us and the world.

Do you think that when we are saved, then there will be no more evil? How?

Ciao

- viole

 

[Brian2]

Do you think that when we are saved, then there will be no more evil? How?

Ciao

- viole

I imagine that there will always be the potential for evil just as there was the potential for Jesus to sin when He was a man on earth.
In the Kingdom of God there will be those who want to be like God and who have been perfected so that they can be like God and be able to control themselves. They will know good and evil and the results of evil and choose good. They will know God and know what He wants and does not want and trust what He says.
This is how I see things will end up.
Whether it will be exactly like that at the start is another thing.

 

[Bree]

Technically the serpent didn't lie to Eve.

1. Eve didn't die by eating the fruit. Nowhere in the account is her death recorded. We do not know when she died.

2. The Serpent was right that by eating the fruit, Eve would be like God, knowing good and evil. Even God agreed, which is why he stopped them from eating from the tree of life.

God punished The Serpent for revealing the truth.

So says the devils advocate...

Things that I don't care about:
- Proof texting. Rather focus on context. I hate retcons.
- Other biblical books besides the Torah/Pentateuch.
- Your faith. I care about what the text says.

I am very interested in hearing Jewish interpretation of these verse.

Jewish and Christian commentaries are allowed.

Note: Changed Satan to Serpent.

She may not have died immediately, but she did eventually die along with her husband.

therefore satan did lie. He said she wouldnt, but she did.

I dont see the problem.

 

[Brian2]

She may not have died immediately, but she did eventually die along with her husband.

therefore satan did lie. He said she wouldnt, but she did.

I dont see the problem.

Me neither.

 

[Samael_Khan]

She may not have died immediately, but she did eventually die along with her husband.

therefore satan did lie. He said she wouldnt, but she did.

I dont see the problem.

Is Eve's death recorded in Genesis?

 

[rosends]

Is Eve's death recorded in Genesis?

Here is some information

How long did Chava (Eve) live?

 

[Bree]

Is Eve's death recorded in Genesis?

no its not

 

[Muffled]

Do you think that when we are saved, then there will be no more evil? How?

Ciao

- viole

I believe God is able to alter our memories and proclivities.

 

[viole]

I believe God is able to alter our memories and proclivities.

So much for free will.

why did He not do it at the beginning? Like our proclivity for apples and disobeying?

That would have simplified things a lot.

ciao

- viole

 

[Muffled]

Ok, but why all this cosmic drama for the equivalent of little clueless children having disobeyed?

ciao

- viole

I believe drama often results from sin.