Blu2, you amaze me!
You don’t even believe it happened...but you sure can twist it!
You don’t even believe it happened...but you sure can twist it!
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EVE! Legendary heroine of Humanity!
- Thread starter blü 2
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Well, I'm delighted, proud even, to amaze you, but my sole aim is to untwist, to make the dark places plain, to reflect as accurately as I can what the words actually say.
And with Eve, the words are clear and simple. It's a primitive tale and its concept of God is unsophisticated but also undefensive ─ [he] does silly things, like put the tree next to the pair, and [he] says what [he] thinks, not what a modern polished version of God might be expected to think (namely, no way are my own creations gonna challenge me on my own patch!)
Regardless, I hope all things are good at your place in these curious times.
I don’t see your side of the issue, at all!
In fact, very little is said about Eve in Scripture. It does say that she “was deceived.”
How do you understand Romans 5:12? Who is the “one man”?
Exactly how did he ‘cause death to come into the world’?
Later, cousin!
In fact, very little is said about Eve in Scripture. It does say that she “was deceived.”
How do you understand Romans 5:12? Who is the “one man”?
Exactly how did he ‘cause death to come into the world’?
Later, cousin!
Brian2
Veteran Member
The Spirit anointed him for the battle and to be a judge.
Where does it say that?
They were killed and this satisfied the blood guilt of the house of Saul. It does not say it pleased God. There is a difference between justice and what God wants. Ideally God would be pleased with everyone forgiving everyone.
What you are adding is that it happened exactly as God intended.
It certainly happened as God knew it would but that is not the same thing.
God does what He does, and it is not His responsibility how we react to that even if He knows how we will react.
Brian2
Veteran Member
I do not claim that and if you check newer translations with better texts you can see that "which is in heaven" is not included.
John 3:13 is speaking of only one man who has descended from heaven. That we know is Jesus.
We don't really know that from Jude, as the scripture quoted is not canonical and the context may not be even literal. Where is the context of the quote so that we can check it out?
Samuel came from sheol also in the witch of Endor story. People can do that when God is in control.
You seem to be making the whole Bible into a book of confusion where God does not tell us what He means but we have to work it out and change definitions of words and the plain meaning of what is written.
[/QUOTE]Enoch, And Elijah, the Great Prophets, transfigured in life, without dying at all.[/QUOTE]
According to?
Yahcubs777
Active Member
According to the bible.
Lol you just ignored the fact that HE said the Son of Man is in heaven at the time HE said it.
This is the problem with indoctrination. What I shared here is beyond gain say if the person is honest, and a child of the kingdom.
The newer translations are further away from the Spirit with which they were spoken in. Honestly, the church seems to have not 1 iota of Spirituality. Else, you would have seen that every translation from translation, to translation,is like they are lashing and beating the Word.
Lol ofc Jude is not canonical view because he refutes their belief system. Just like they rejected the book of Revelation at a time, and bannished the messages of John the beloved. What was the name of the Prophet that chose which books should and shouldn't be in th bible?
I am not making anything a confusion, i am throwing light on what was written.
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Brian2
Veteran Member
It is a hard question. When an innocent child does wrong for the first time, does it first know what good and evil is or is doing wrong the first knowledge it has of good and evil? Sort of an egg and chicken question.
There are probably a multitude of reasons for it to be necessary. These would have to do with God's justice and what we are as humans, moral creatures with moral wills and who would not be what we are with a quick fix snap of God's fingers to change us so that we could not sin. God was dealing with us as we are and wanting us to want to do what was right and to trust him instead of just keeping on trying to be good enough in our own righteousness. God does love us and loves us enough to send Jesus to die, to satisfy His justice and for us to be able to enter that death and take His righteousness onto us so that God can be pleased with us through His Son whom He loves and who intercedes for us.
There are no doubt other issues with the angels and their rebellion in heaven and what God was seen to do to deal with that.
I don't know. I guess it can all be seen as Christian jargon.
I tend to just trust God even if I don't have the full definitive answer.
I told you that we can see how society changed and the attitudes of people as Christianity spread. I told you that we can see how people's lives get changed.
If anyone else is reading this then they may be able to add to the list.
The main changes are inside people. There are plenty of things that we are looking forward to, but that is future. There are theological changes also since Christians can approach God without fear of condemnation.
But I guess what can be seen is changes in society in the past and in an ongoing way even these days.
Even the attitude of equality between people is continuing to have it's effects on what is happening in society. It is like a lump of leaven put into a bowl of flour and which leavens the whole lot. That is what the Kingdom of God is like. Everyone is effected by the things that Jesus did and said even if they are not a part of the Kingdom. The mustard seed grows from a tiny seed into a huge tree and all the birds of the air nest in it's branches.
God's love has been given to us in the words of Jesus and how they have changed societies and how Christians have shown that love in the world.
There are always those Christians who seem to hate more than love but that is not the result of Jesus and the gospel, it is the result of those who go against the gospel, even if they are Christians.
Brian2
Veteran Member
Paul says that they are "called gods", not that they are true gods, and Jesus is above them. There are many that are called gods but aren't really gods.
He is one of many gods with limited authority.
Jesus was anointed by the Holy Spirit for His mission and the voice came from heaven because that is where the Father says He is. But that does not limit the Father from being in Jesus and does not limit the Holy Spirit from being in Jesus. The dove descending and voice from the sky are symbolic.
Jesus said that the Father was in Him and He in the Father. So the Father was in Jesus and in heaven at the same time.
It does not limit God from being everywhere, which the Bible tells us He is.
Is God everywhere in Mormon theology?
I'm not sure what you mean by physically distinct. I would say distinct but not separated.
I'm not sure what you mean by "The unity of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit is, in all things except the physical, perfect and absolute."
It's simply a matter of having another source for your revelation, a source that does not agree with the Bible 100%.
Katzpur
Not your average Mormon
You know what? I'm tired of this. You're not content to simply disagree with the LDS interpretation. You continue to insist that we believe things we don't believe, even after I clarify our position to you. There is absolutely no point in my trying to continue having a dialogue with you when you clearly would rather keep on believing your own personal version of LDS doctrine than accept that what I am telling you is accurate and truthful. I'm really sorry it has to be this way, but apparently it does. We're just going around in circles rather than moving forward, and that's a waste of my time.
For example, Young’s literal translation says it like this:
and of the tree of knowledge of good and evil, thou dost not eat of it, for in the day of thine eating of it--dying thou dost die.'
Gen. 2:17
I have understood this “life” is the first death by which people die. That day they were expelled to this first death to die. So, God was correct, they lost their life with God and begun to die. And that is why Jesus can say:
Most assuredly I tell you, he who hears my word, and believes him who sent me, has eternal life, and doesn't come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
John 5:24
That does not say they would have died anyway.
Very astute comment!
When it came to Jesus’ sacrifice, Jehovah didn’t want to see His Son suffer & die; it’s obvious when you read the accounts....the earth quaked & the skies grew dark when His Son died.
God follows the same just standards He holds us to. Perfect life was lost, a perfect life needed to be given.
Stop making stuff up. Read what the text says.
Why else would God set it up and knock it down? God sends the famine, God gives [his] reasons, David acts accordingly, seven humans are impaled, God is satisfied and lifts the famine.
God made it plain what God wanted.
Not that God. This is the God of the Bronze Age, not of the 21st century CE. [He] approves of slavery, invasive war, massacres of populations, human sacrifices and more ─ just as the Tanakh says. The NT is all about glorifying human sacrifice, though I have no idea what it's said to have achieved that could not have been done better by other means.
So you can only speculate. Like me you actually have no idea.
I see no evidence that the Jews didn't trust their God.
To die for what, exactly? The NT makes it plain that Jesus' mission was to die ─ that is, it was a suicide mission. I don't know about you but I find that morally absurd.
No, that's too much after the event. Jesus' mission to the Jews, if that's what it was, was a total failure. Christianity's success is overwhelmingly among the pagans, very little among the Jews. Jesus was never the savior of the Jews ─ he was the direct cause of two millennia of antisemitism. To say the God of the Jews did that is farcical.
That was, as I said, pagan society that changed. What emerged was and is a version of Graeco-Roman culture, not Jewish culture.
You apparently know no history. Christianity fought Judaism, paganism, the native religions of the Semitic, Celtic, Germanic, Slavic and other peoples; they fought each other ─ the Thirty Years War is one of the vilest, most barbaric on record. They imposed Christianity by force through Africa, the Americas and Asia in the colonial eras of Portugal, Spain, Britain, and France. They, like the Muslims, imposed their religion on the slaves they dealt with in the African slave trade. Christianity isn't a world religion because it's right. It's a world religion because it was the religion of the conquerors.
If God's love is evident in those histories, it must be in footnotes, because it's only in the main text as an administrative convenience.
“Human sacrifices”? No. What made you say that? Jephthah? The context shows there was no literal “burnt offering”, something Jehovah never approved of.
The other things, were done, to protect His people. It was always to protect His people. He gave Egypt a chance, 10 of them. Then 40 years later, It seems Rahab was the only smart Canaanite, she realized & basically said it was a losing battle, for Jericho (and the other towns) to fight against Jehovah. She and her family lived.
According to Rahab, news had spread, and what had happened to Pharaoh’s army, 40 years earlier, was well-known.
Was Jehovah determined to kill all of the Canaanites? No! It really hinged on their attitude. We have the case of the Gibeonites. Joshua 9 (Did you overlook that on purpose, since it doesn’t support your POV?)
You see, the Gibeonites exhibited some wisdom. Still, they told lies when they approached Israel. As God, Jehovah knew that. Did He overlook that? Yes. He knew the reason behind their lying....their lives were involved! They knew they couldn’t be successful fighting against Jehovah! When Joshua found out their deception, Jehovah told him to honor the treaty he had made with them, despite their fabrications. They lived. (What? Jehovah being merciful? Heaven forbid!)
Joshua even protected their cities from other Canaanites! You can read about that, in Joshua 10.
Jehovah, as our Creator, knows our ability to reason, something those fighting Canaanites should have used. They should have been humbled by what had happened to Egypt. They weren’t, so they paid the price for their warring actions.
The majority of these haters of Jehovah’s people, BTW, will probably be resurrected and given another chance of accepting Jehovah as their God & Creator....they would make up the “unrighteous” of whom Paul wrote in Acts of the Apostles 24:15.
So ultimately, Jehovah God is caring.
In contrast to what the Devil wants everyone to think. -1 John 5:19; 2 Corinthians 4:4.
The following vid makes some interesting points...at about 1:40, it highlights what John & Paul said. The “full length” is only 3:44.
https://www.jw.org/en/jehovahs-witnesses/video-why-study-the-bible/
Brian2
Veteran Member
I thought I was being accurate about Mormon doctrine. As I said there are many things in Mormonism which disagree with the Bible and the number of gods there are and etc. Do you actually know how different Mormonism is from what the Bible teaches? Isn't Mormonism a religion where not all members are privy to the same teaching and it is only when you are in the religion a long time, and maybe reach a certain level, that other teachings are introduced.
These contradictions imo show that Joseph Smith was a false prophet. There are also other reasons to see him as such.
The text says Jephthah vowed that whoever came first through the door would be a burnt offering, and the text says that Jephthah did according to his vow. So I think the text gives no context for your argument.
No, God intervened to make certain that Pharaoh would reject them, regardless of Pharaoh's actual inclination ─
Exodus 7:3 But I will harden Pharaoh’s heart, and though I multiply my signs and wonders in the land of Egypt, 4 Pharaoh will not listen to you;
Best little cathouse in Canaan, they said. Quite a gal.
I'm not sure how this addresses the point. Which is that God sent the famine, David asked why, God said there was unsatisfied bloodguilt between Saul and the Gibeonites, go fix it, David accordingly did the deal, the seven sons (more accurately the two sons and five grandsons) of Saul were impaled "before the Lord" and the Lord being happy with that lifted the famine. Human sacrifice.
Something that seems obvious to me as a reader of history is that the God of Israel evolves across the bible from a primitive henotheist Bronze Age god who can't find Adam and Eve in [his] own Garden, who drafts the ragged and primitive ten commandments, who orders invasive wars, massacres of populations ─
Deuteronomy 7:1-2 “When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." (and again at 20:16)
─ and mass rape, and human sacrifices, and the death penalty for cutting your beard or razzing your parents ... to something somewhat more civilized, more just, more nuanced, and arguably made so by exposure to the Babylonian court during the Exile.
If you're right, let's hope you're right about that part too (!).
Brian2
Veteran Member
The only perfect human that ever existed is Jesus.
Then why does Genesis record such long lifespans for those generations immediately following A&E? (Longevity gradually tapered off.)
Because, they were closer to Adam and Eve genetically.
That is why Jesus is called “the last Adam”: Jesus’ perfect life ideally matched Adam’s.
At Revelation 21:3-4, where it says the “tent of God is with mankind”... when it states “death will be no more”, what does that mean?
The ability to live forever, for mankind!
Brian2
Veteran Member
There is variety in the ancient manuscripts and scholars have worked to sort out the additions and changes etc. We are said to be closer to the originals than we were say 100 years ago because of the scholarship and the number of manuscripts that have been found.
I read that Jude was probably alluding to the Jewish Testament of Moses which is written in probably the 1st cent AD.
How do you throw light on what was written by changing the meaning of words. Why do you say the tree of the knowledge of good and evil is really the tree of procreation? for example.
Yahcubs777
Active Member
The Scholars, scribes, doctorate level holders, the wise in this world are not Prophets, I want this to be clear! They don't hear from GOD directly. Jesus His Pre-Eminence said: My Words are Spirit and are life: Which simply means, HIS Word is Spiritual and Life Giving. The Scholars do not know the Mind of GOD; they literalised HIS Word and gave the Word a beating, and lashings, and left it in a dead state. That dead state simply means: As it is written the words cannot give anyone life. Life, is not breathing in oxygen and exhaling Carbon Dioxide, or have a limited life span that leads to death; life is life without dying at all. The real "life" is defined in the kind of life that renews not expires; the kind of life that cannot lead to death. If t leads to death; its not life, its slowly dying. So The Word of GOD was left in a dead state by these scholars, and the people that put the bible together. They were not led by GOD at all; nor do they have the ability to hear from GOD as Prophets do. What they delved into, is a don't do.
Throwing light means bringing out the hidden manna in the words that were written, in the correct mindset, to reveal what was sealed in the writings of the ones GOD sent. Its not changing the meaning of the words, its seeing the words as they were meant to be seen; which you must have the correct mindset first to bring them out. And that has been the whole issue with the church; led by false prophets for 2000+ years who were not called or sent to preach, who dived into things they were not supposed to - this is where the falling away happened.
It is the tree of procreation; because it gave them the kind of body needed to procreate.