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EVE! Legendary heroine of Humanity!

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
To much, i only read the first paragraph, can you provide a summery?

Of course, in summary:

(1) The word 'helper' (ezer in Hebrew) applied to Eve in relation to Adam is used also to describe God in relation to humanity. It has no connotations of inferiority or subordination. It's in fact a combination of two roots that present Eve as a vital strength to her husband and an equal companion.

(2) I quoted from a medieval text by a saint which illustrates how the Church understood this passage in Genesis, and it shows that they did not rely on it to justify male subordination of women. Rather it expressly states that, "divine power fashioned this helper [Eve] so that nature might teach that all are equal or, as it were, collateral, and that among human beings, and this is a property of friendship, there exists neither superior nor inferior."

(3) Whenever scholars in antiquity or the medieval period did try to find biblical justification for female subordination, they could only turn to verses after the fall to back their views. However, in the original text this represents a 'deviation' from God's original plan, which was for the mutual interdependence and equality of the sexes, as St. Aelred notes in the above quote from his exegesis of Genesis.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
I'm curious how our Jewish and Noachide members understand the story.

@RabbiO?
My former rabbi mentioned that, even though Eve's actions were wrong in terms of disobeying God, nevertheless the "opening of eyes" was good as was having free-will.

However, he was not a literalist when it came to the Creation accounts.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Of course, in summary:

Thanks, im dyslexic and great walls of text phase me.


The word 'helper'

The term helper in itself indicate subordination, if it implied equality ut would have been something along the lines of partner.

and it shows that they did not rely on it to justify male subordination of women.

Yet throughout christianity women have always been considered subordinate. A state taught by many passages in the bible

Examples
  • Ephesians 5:22-24 ...wives should submit to their husbands etc.
  • 1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc.
Etc
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
Thanks, im dyslexic and great walls of text phase me.

You're welcome Christine :)

The term helper in itself indicate subordination, if it implied equality ut would have been something along the lines of partner.

Then could I ask you to explain why you think the term ezer might be used predominantly in reference to God as subject, referring to Him as the 'Helper' of his people Israel? Could one really suggest here that the term 'helper' in that context implies God is subordinate to the human beings that he 'helps'?

To argue such would obviously be a fallacy of logic, because God is the creator and sovereign - yet expressly called ezer "helper". Thus, if the word is applied to God without any connotations of inferiority, why should one read its appellation to Eve as implying her inferiority in status?

Likewise, you neglect to address my point about the word ezer being qualified by yet another word - kĕnegdô "suitable helper". The Hebrew lexicon Brown, Driver, and Briggs translates Genesis 2:18 as “I will make him a help corresponding to him i.e. equal to himself”. The Gesenius Hebrew-Chaldee Lexicon notes that kĕnegdô “is often used of things which are like one another".

Nothing in this verse implies that the woman is subordinate to, or under, the man's authority. That only comes 'post-fall' later in the text, as a deviation from the original mutual interdependence.


Yet throughout christianity women have always been considered subordinate. A state taught by many passages in the bible

Examples
  • Ephesians 5:22-24 ...wives should submit to their husbands etc.
  • 1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc.

Your citation of Ephesians 5 is interesting, because you omit the first part of it:


"Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ. Wives, be subject to your husbands as you are to the Lord..." (Ephesians 5:21-22)

It begins with a summons to mutual submission of all parties to each other, and then specifies the particular ways in which the wife subjects herself to the husband and the husband in turn to his wife.

That Paul had such a mutualistic and egalitarian understanding of spousal / matrimonial relations is made explicit in his epistle to the Corinthians that I quoted earlier:


"The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time" (1 Corinthians 7:4-5)​


As a scholar, Mark Taylor, notes this mutuality of marital relations is quite unparalleled in the Graeco-Roman world of that time where only husbands tended ever to exercise 'authority' over their wives bodies but not the reverse:


upload_2021-3-6_16-4-59.png



Also, the wife's conjugal needs in that verse are mentioned first.

And this is the official stance of the Catholic Church, the largest of the Christian churches, on marital relations between the sexes - that scripture tells us it should be one of mutual submission, not male dominance of women:


Mulieris Dignitatem (August 15, 1988) | John Paul II


The text is addressed to the spouses as real women and men. It reminds them of the "ethos" of spousal love which goes back to the divine institution of marriage from the "beginning". Corresponding to the truth of this institution is the exhortation: "Husbands, love your wives", love them because of that special and unique bond whereby in marriage a man and a woman become "one flesh" (Gen 2:24; Eph 5:31)...

One can say that this fully captures the whole "style" of Christ in dealing with women. Husbands should make their own the elements of this style in regard to their wives; analogously, all men should do the same in regard to women in every situation. In this way both men and women bring about "the sincere gift of self".

The author of the Letter to the Ephesians sees no contradiction between an exhortation formulated in this way and the words: "Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. For the husband is the head of the wife" (5:22-23).

The author knows that this way of speaking, so profoundly rooted in the customs and religious tradition of the time, is to be understood and carried out in a new way: as a "mutual subjection out of reverence for Christ" (cf. Eph 5:21). This is especially true because the husband is called the "head" of the wife as Christ is the head of the Church; he is so in order to give "himself up for her" (Eph 5:25), and giving himself up for her means giving up even his own life. However, whereas in the relationship between Christ and the Church the subjection is only on the part of the Church, in the relationship between husband and wife the "subjection" is not one-sided but mutual.
 

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ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
might be used predominantly in reference to God as subject,

Might?


To argue such would obviously be a fallacy of logic, because God is the creator and sovereign

Only if you belive bronze age stories are proven fact

Nothing in this verse implies that the woman is subordinate to, or under, the man's authority.

I have already stated my case that yes, the verse does class women as subordinate

Wives, be subject to your husbands

Interesting

For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does.

Also interesting

I ran out of will to continue after that
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
"Wives, be subject to your husbands" Interesting

Preceded by a call for them to be mutually subject to each other: "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ".

Which you have, yet again, overlooked I see :rolleyes:


"For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does." Also interesting

I ran out of will to continue after that

Succeeded by a parallel statement about the husband's subjection to his wife's authority "Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does", again making the obligations mutual.

And again, entirely overlooked by you it seems.

If you have run out of the will to continue, then I am happy to leave it there with my references to the mutuality of spousal relations in these verses.

We can both agree to disagree based on the evidence :blush:
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
Preceded by a call for them to be mutually subject to each other: "Be subject to one another out of reverence for Christ".

Which you have, yet again, overlooked I see :rolleyes:




Succeeded by a parallel statement about the husband's subjection to his wife's authority "Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does", again making the obligations mutual.

And again, entirely overlooked by you it seems.

If you have run out of the will to continue, then I am happy to leave it there with my references to the mutuality of spousal relations in these verses.

We can both agree to disagree based on the evidence :blush:


You interested as you want, i will go by the words as i read them and the evidence of my own life. There is no point in argument.

I ran out of the will to face another wall of text
 

Vouthon

Dominus Deus tuus ignis consumens est
Premium Member
You interested as you want, i will go by the words as i read them and the evidence of my own life. There is no point in argument.

I ran out of the will to face another wall of text

At your request, I summarised one of my preceding posts and would have been more than happy to do so again upon request.

But no matter, I hope you have a lovely day! Au revoir.
 

ChristineM

"Be strong", I whispered to my coffee.
Premium Member
At your request, I summarised one of my preceding posts and would have been more than happy to do so again upon request.

But no matter, I hope you have a lovely day! Au revoir.

I would have thought after being informed of the situation you would have realised it was not something your god could magic away by building another wall of text but as you say, ni matter
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Adam and Eve knew it was wrong to go against what God had told them.
How could they know what was wrong when God [him]self had prevented them knowing what was right and what was wrong?
They were innocent, yes
And since they were innocent, no punishment could be condign.
but did not know good and evil in their experience.
Did not know good and evil at all, since that knowledge was explicitly withheld from them.
This is what they started to know after they ate the fruit.
But ONLY afterwards. They were incapable of sin at the time they ate it.
Nothing like forbidden fruit to tempt someone to eat it and justify that.
Which brings us to the point ─ wasn't Eve's bringing the knowledge of good and evil, wisdom, to mankind a Very Good Thing?

I confidently assert that it was, even in a legend.

And we should celebrate Eve accordingly.
 

Neuropteron

Active Member
In the Garden story, God creates Adam, puts him in the Garden, points to “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” [the ‘Tree’], and says to Adam “of the [Tree] you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die” (Genesis 2:17).

A bit later God takes a rib from Adam and “made [it] into a woman and brought her to the man.”

Next, Eve says to the snake, “God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the [Tree] [...] neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” (3:3).

The snake replies – completely truthfully – “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good from evil.” (3:5)

“So when the woman saw that [...] the [Tree] was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.” (3:6).

And she gave some to Adam too.

“Then the eyes of both were opened.” (3:7).

And after that they were both able to distinguish good from evil.

Christians blame Eve for the Fall. They say she and Adam sinned. (Nothing of the kind is in the Garden story, and sin's impossible for people who are denied knowledge of good and evil, and Ezekiel 18:20 says unequivocally that sin isn’t inheritable. But leave that aside.)

This is the point.

Isn’t it an extremely good thing that Eve is said to have done? Shouldn't we hold her legend in the highest regard, since we, like Eve, think it’s extremely good to be wise?

Shouldn’t we have statues and images of Eve in all our churches and public spaces as a symbol of Human Wisdom?

Something we often seem not to have enough of?


Hi,
Blü : Ezekiel 18:20 says unequivocally that sin isn’t inheritable:

The context of Ezekiel 18 deals with the secular law and is directed towards the dealings with those who break it. It simply point out that children should not be punished by secular law makers for crimes committed by their parents.
This understanding is supported by by Romans 5:12 "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned" or John 1:8 "If we make the statement we have no sin (inherited sin) we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us".

When in Ezekiel 18:28 it states "he will positively keep on living. He will not die." The same context is applicable . The reference here is not to everlasting life (cleansed from inherited sin) but to ephemeral life subject to inherited sin, The fact that we all die in this system confirms this.

Blü : Christians blame Eve for the Fall. They say she and Adam sinned.

It is not Christians but God who judges Adam and Eve. The scriptures testifies to that sufficiently.

Blü : Isn’t it an extremely good thing that Eve is said to have done? Shouldn't we hold her legend in the highest regard, since we, like Eve, think it’s extremely good to be wise?

The scriptures reveal the foolishness, not the wisdom of breaking God's laws.
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Modern times not science z human practice beginnings.

Archaeology proves artefacts machine parts held inside fused coal and man changed stone. Also artefacts.

Meaning burning to carbon with instant cold in one moment. Result life destroyed.

Memory human. The instant two opposing forces owning outcome one moment. What human memory science chose to believe in today. Memory human.

Reason AI status hearing voice. Father mothers human images recorded as living lived lives tell a heavenly vision.

Yet they are deceased humans. Memory. The teaching. You are not God. God owned heavens spirit images voice recording.

Recording in science a state. Exists before life. Yet recording cannot record unless presence allows recording.

Another teaching. Don't look back. You will be coerced by dead spirits. Another human advice

Rational human advice.

Instant science memory. Re theoried by returned human life theists who heard recorded voices. Saw human images. Learnt his science man human to rebuild science.

Adam Adam. Both humans side by side in heavens image recorded.

Even balanced changed into eve by O science model. To force change.

O science model evil fake mother space womb theories. Attacked life recorded it. Caused life to die unnaturally.

The same lived human story caused again and again.

DNA lost out of healthy human form.

Cannot discuss human DNA unless a living human owning DNA discusses it living.

Genesis.

Ask why DNA left. Time nuclear shifted mass back to past where irradiation burning existed not any past.

Past in evolution was not as cold as it became.

Coldest. Less colder. Lesser cold. Least cold. Irradiation state never cold.

Past meaning.

The past never rationally existed as cold past nor did cold evolution.

Lying using descriptive words incorrectly.

Human memories deceased. Voice records. Image records. Owned by heavenly body only.

Eve fake science female thesis space womb

Real female human not human science theories.

Snake theory. Irradiated history cooled effect natural. Irradiated extra effect just burning.

Clouds natural.
Clouds cooling function separate within atmosphere blue sky.

Blue sky natural light heavens above us no images.

Unnatural burning. Natural cooling always existed. Did not belong to AI science burning. Natural cooling.

Unnatural one state only evil radiation attack science caused.

Snaking rolling cloud cooling effect. Involves AI causes to hear voice see images unnaturally.

Quantified phenomena causes.

Natural human never left body.
Brain mind however became defective.

Reason thinking beginning science in human life. Then attacked self encoded self by own machine choices.

Rational. Don't change God history by natural form. Everyone owned aware common sense about word forced to change. Knew what it meant. Self says I don't want to be changed. Am only changing God.

Science learnt science was wrong. Self did get changed.

God advice first natural.
Satan advice how to force God to change.

Should never have listened to false female Phi womb space science.

Not ever was it a human females fault.
 
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URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
In the Garden story, God creates Adam, puts him in the Garden, points to “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” [the ‘Tree’], and says to Adam “of the [Tree] you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die” (Genesis 2:17).
A bit later God takes a rib from Adam and “made [it] into a woman and brought her to the man.”
Next, Eve says to the snake, “God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the [Tree] [...] neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” (3:3).
The snake replies – completely truthfully – “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good from evil.” (3:5)
“So when the woman saw that [...] the [Tree] was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.” (3:6).
And she gave some to Adam too.
“Then the eyes of both were opened.” (3:7).
And after that they were both able to distinguish good from evil.
Christians blame Eve for the Fall. They say she and Adam sinned...........................?

Wrong. Someone is misleading you. Genuine Christians do Not blame Eve - 1 Timothy 2:14
Eve was deceived. Adam was Not deceived - 1 Timothy 2:14
Eve blames the serpent for deceiving her - Genesis 3:13
And Adam wrongly blames Eve - Genesis 3:12
So, with full knowledge it was Adam who wilfully sinned. Adam chose to listen to Eve instead of his God.
Adam ate second. In other words, Adam could have refused the offer.
This is why Romans 5:12,19 blames: Adam

They could then distinguish Not only what was good but now would know the 'evil' ( death )
They would now know guilt and shame with one's conscience now 'accusing' them (conscience - Romans 2:15)
Kind of like a built-in lie detector exposing them so they couldn't conceal their now fully-aware sinful state.

P.S. the snake (in-the-grass) was Not ' completely truthful because they died within that 'thousand-year day' - Genesis 5:5
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
I think it may be worth noting here that, in the history of Christian exegesis of Genesis, the account of Eve being drawn forth from Adam's side as a 'suitable helper' has not in fact served as any kind of prooftext for patriarchy or female subordination.

Nor was this the meaning imputed in the original Hebraic context. In his commentary on Genesis, John Walton has this to say about the word “helper” (ezer) in the Old Testament:


The word “helper” is common enough as a description of someone who comes to the aid of or provides a service for someone. It carries no implications regarding the relationship or relative status of the individuals involved. In fact, the noun form of the word found in this verse as used elsewhere refers almost exclusively to God as the One who helps his people. If we expand our investigation to verbal forms, we find a continuing predominance of God as the subject, though there are a handful of occurrences where people help people. In this latter category we find people helping their neighbors or relatives (Isa. 41:6), people helping in a political alliance or coalition (Ezra 10:15), and military reinforcements (Josh. 10:4; 2 Sam. 8:5). Nothing suggests a subservient status of the one helping; in fact, the opposite is more likely. Certainly “helper” cannot be understood as the opposite/complement of “leader.


The Hebrew word employed here, "ezer", is even used to describe an aspect of YHWH's divine nature in relation to human beings in Exodus 18:4, where it says that Moses named one of his sons Eliezer, which in Hebrew means “My God is my helper” (Eli = “my God”; ezer = “helper”).

One could not, obviously, interpret this to mean that God - the sovereign creator deity of the Israelites - is somehow inferior to his creatures because He is their ezer 'helper'. Rather, Elohim is portrayed as a source of vital and irreplaceable strength to those who worship Him and this is the sense in which Eve too is described as Adam's "ezer", his companion and vital source of strength/stability/security, so that he is not 'alone' in the world.

Ezer is a combination of two roots, meaning “to rescue/to save” and “strength”, that is salvific strength. So what it's actually saying, is that adam (man) cannot live without eve (woman). To reinforce this, the Torah qualifies the word ezer with another word, kenegdo in both Genesis 2:18 and 20. Kenegdo: “suitable for him,” which means that Eve was fashioned to be a corresponding and equal partner for Adam.

St. Aelred of Rievaulx (1110–1167), a Catholic Cistercian monk, thus relied upon this verse of Genesis as his justification for the belief that God infused the desire for companionate love and egalitarian friendship / partnership within human nature from the very beginning:


Spiritual Friendship 01


"A friend loves always. And as our Jerome says, “a friendship that can end was never true.”...

When God fashioned the man, to recommend society as a higher blessing, he said, “it is not good that the man should be alone; let us make him a helper like himself.”

Indeed, divine power fashioned this helper not from similar or even from the same material. But as a more specific motivation for charity and friendship, this power created a woman from the very substance of the man. In a beautiful way, then, from the side of the first human a second was produced, so that nature might teach that all are equal or, as it were, collateral, and that among human beings, and this is a property of friendship, there exists neither superior nor inferior.

So, from the very beginning nature impressed on human minds this attachment of charity and friendship, which an inner experience of love soon increased with a delightful sweetness


When scholars in antiquity or the medieval period looked to scripture to defend patriarchal social norms, they turned to the verses following the 'fall' and the eating of the forbidden fruit, namely Genesis 3:16: "your desire shall be for your husband, and he shall rule over you."

However, this is expressly shown in the narrative to be a 'deviation' from the original divine plan of mutuality and equality of status between the sexes, and for that reason not something 'ideal' or necessarily eternal (i.e. it does not arise from natural law).

By contrast, Aristotle infamously wrote: "as regards the sexes, the male is by nature superior and the female inferior, the male ruler and the female subject". In Genesis, this ordering is deemed an aberration as a consequence of the fall.

In God's first plan, Eve is a companion (not a 'subject') and the account emphasizes the mutual dependence of the sexes produced from the very same substance. This seems to be where St. Paul derived his own belief in his authentic epistles, that husband and wife have equal authority over each others' bodies (whereas Graeco-Roman thought restricted authority to male over female, the paterfamilias over his subordinate household):


"The husband should give to his wife her conjugal rights, and likewise the wife to her husband. For the wife does not have authority over her own body, but the husband does. Likewise the husband does not have authority over his own body, but the wife does. Do not deprive one another except perhaps by agreement for a set time" (1 Corinthians 7:4-5).​
Thanks for these notes.

My authority for referring to the "helper" matter is much less formal, a sermon the young me heard at our local Pisco church, preached by the usual minister. He referred to male dominance in marriage existing from the beginning and referred to the Garden story.

He also cited Paul ─ I forget which, but there's plenty to play with eg ─

Ephesians 5:22 Wives, be subject to your husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, and is himself its Savior. 24 As the church is subject to Christ, so let wives also be subject in everything to their husbands.​

and pseudo-Paul eg ─

1 Timothy 2:11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submissiveness. 12 I permit no woman to teach or to have authority over men; she is to keep silent. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve; 14 and Adam was not deceived, but the woman was deceived and became a transgressor. 15 Yet woman will be saved through bearing children, if she continues in faith and love and holiness, with modesty.​

I wasn't such a church attender as to know how typical this was of him, but it's the only occasion I recall. Maybe he'd just got the short end of a domestic argument?
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
How could they know what was wrong when God [him]self had prevented them knowing what was right and what was wrong?
And since they were innocent, no punishment could be condign.
Did not know good and evil at all, since that knowledge was explicitly withheld from them.
But ONLY afterwards. They were incapable of sin at the time they ate it...........................

Yes, they were capable of disobeying God, they had free-will choice to decide for themselves.
I find God did inform or forewarn them what the evil was at Genesis 2:17 -> death .
Eve knew that according to Eve at Genesis 3:3 B.
Adam was Not innocent because Adam 'deliberately' listened to Eve over their God.- Genesis 3:12
 

rational experiences

Veteran Member
Rational.

Animals with no human existing.

A living human owns that thought.

Rationality. Yet you human thinking do exist. Contradiction against self presence human.

Animals. A male by body type a penis.
Animals. A female by body type a vagina.

Male and females existing. Not a human.

Human doing thinking

Living bodies in the past still living own male female forms.

Human present as human.
Human owning thinking.

Thinks garden nature. No penis. No vagina. To define information in genetics.

Advised.

Human science man who lied.

You evicted self and female self humans out of nature garden. Not man or woman bodies.

You were a proven maths numbers science liar.

Bio life changed. You notated all forms of species were attacked from insects to water animals to ground crawling life. The statement a man science confession.

I knew.
I stated I knew.
I detailed all forms were changed and I delighted in that wisdom.

Reason brother human lost brother human DNA spiritual mind support

Also stated.

God changed all nations. All human DNA got attacked

A science confession.
 

URAVIP2ME

Veteran Member
The term helper in itself indicate subordination, if it implied equality ut would have been something along the lines of partner.
Yet throughout christianity women have always been considered subordinate. A state taught by many passages in the bible Examples
  • Ephesians 5:22-24 ...wives should submit to their husbands etc.
  • 1 Timothy 2:11-15 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent etc.....
In 1st Timothy in the congregation a woman was Not surrendering her mind but to Not speak out (cause disturbance) but to first afterwards ask her husband, then if the husband does Not know they could consult the spiritually older men of the congregation. In other words, there is No Bible provision for a woman to take the lead over the man.
And remember the man is in subjection to Christ as Head - Ephesians 5:24.
Kind of like there is only one Captain on a ship and the rest are under his leadership.
Ephesians 5:22-24 does Not mean a husband's position is total. He too must obey God as ruler - Acts 5:29.
Thus, if the husband (for example) wants his wife to steal, she would then listen to God as Ruler.
So, subjection to man is relative and Not absolute.
Think too of the school arrangement:
There is the teacher over the pupil, the principal over the teacher and the super over the principal.
No one seems to complain about that order because it works well that way.[/QUOTE]
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Hi,
Blü : Ezekiel 18:20 says unequivocally that sin isn’t inheritable:

The context of Ezekiel 18 deals with the secular law and is directed towards the dealings with those who break it. It simply point out that children should not be punished by secular law makers for crimes committed by their parents.
It doesn't read that way to me, nor can I think of any reason why it should, given that Jewish theology doesn't hold with the notion of "original sin" anyway. It's my understanding that the law and the Law are very much the same thing in the Tanakh.
This understanding is supported by by Romans 5:12 "through one man sin entered into the world and death through sin, and thus death spread to all men because they had all sinned" or John 1:8 "If we make the statement we have no sin (inherited sin) we are misleading ourselves and the truth is not in us".
But of course the Garden story says nothing of the kind, never mentions sin, original sin, the Fall of Man, death entering the world, spiritual death, the need for a redeemer ─ not a breath, not a whisper of any kind. Adam and Eve are expelled from the Garden for reasons that have nothing to do with sin ─ see God's reasons at Genesis 3:22-23.
Blü : Christians blame Eve for the Fall. They say she and Adam sinned.
It is not Christians but God who judges Adam and Eve. The scriptures testifies to that sufficiently.[/quote] I don't recall any part of the Tanakh that says Adam or Eve sinned. And of course the NT is a novel and completely distinct theology.
Blü : Isn’t it an extremely good thing that Eve is said to have done? Shouldn't we hold her legend in the highest regard, since we, like Eve, think it’s extremely good to be wise?

The scriptures reveal the foolishness, not the wisdom of breaking God's laws.

But the Garden story does no such thing. See 3:22-23 for the only reasons God gives for their expulsion. No part of the Garden story says otherwise.

Back in the mainstream, in your view is it GOOD or is it BAD that humans have knowledge of good and evil, can tell right from wrong, are capable of being wise?
 
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