EVE! Legendary heroine of Humanity!

[blü 2]

Wrong. Someone is misleading you. Genuine Christians do Not blame Eve - 1 Timothy 2:14
Eve was deceived. Adam was Not deceived - 1 Timothy 2:14
Eve blames the serpent for deceiving her - Genesis 3:13
And Adam wrongly blames Eve - Genesis 3:12
So, with full knowledge it was Adam who wilfully sinned. Adam chose to listen to Eve instead of his God.
Adam ate second. In other words, Adam could have refused the offer.
This is why Romans 5:12,19 blames: Adam

But none of that is in the Garden story. That's all invented much later, brought into Christianity by Paul's small mention of it, and turned into a Big Deal by Augustine of Hippo. Large parts of Christianity have been about guilt ever since. The Jewish religion, to the best of my understanding, goes with the original text in Genesis.

P.S. the snake (in-the-grass) was Not ' completely truthful because they died within that 'thousand-year day' - Genesis 5:5

There are no thousand-year-days in the Garden story ─ only and-there-was-evening -and-there-was-morning days. Check the text of Genesis to that point for yourself.

 

[ChristineM]

In 1st Timothy in the congregation a woman was Not surrendering her mind but to Not speak out (cause disturbance) but to first afterwards ask her husband, then if the husband does Not know they could consult the spiritually older men of the congregation. In other words, there is No Bible provision for a woman to take the lead over the man.
And remember the man is in subjection to Christ as Head - Ephesians 5:24.
Kind of like there is only one Captain on a ship and the rest are under his leadership.
Ephesians 5:22-24 does Not mean a husband's position is total. He too must obey God as ruler - Acts 5:29.
Thus, if the husband (for example) wants his wife to steal, she would then listen to God as Ruler.
So, subjection to man is relative and Not absolute.
Think too of the school arrangement:
There is the teacher over the pupil, the principal over the teacher and the super over the principal.
No one seems to complain about that order because it works well that way.

[/QUOTE]


Read the words not the interpretation that best suites you. If you feel women should remain silent when no such restriction applies to men that is subjugation

 

[Brian2]

The snake replies – completely truthfully – “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good from evil.” (3:5)

Maybe you have not read the whole story or yet realised that humans do die.

 

[Brian2]

So why was it that knowledge of good and evil was a bad thing? Did God explain that?

If we look around us we can see why knowledge of good and evil was a bad thing.

Why create the tree in the first place, and why could God not just zap the new knowledge out of their heads, once they'd eaten the fruit?

They had to take responsibility for what they had done. That was part of the consequences.
Something about justice and about leading humans to a better place.

I'm skeptical about this knowledge of good and evil nonsense. People have been arguing about good and evil for millennia. The fruit didn't work very well.

Did that knowledge get passed on after Adam and Eve?
Confusion probably snuck in especially with grey areas.
And I guess we tend to justify what we want to do and so that becomes what we might call good, or what we call neutral.

 

[Brian2]

To much, i only read the first paragraph, can you provide a summery?

From the first para
a/ eve is made second, not first, not at the same time so subordinate
b/ eve eas made from a rib belonging to adam thus making eve belong to adam.

And i read the bible, several of them, not after the fact apologetics

Edit c/ it is the start of a long line throughout the bible if identifying women as second class, property, to be used as sex slaves and little else

I have heard it interpreted that God took Eve from the side of Adam, thus making them companions, equal.
Part of the consequences of the sin is the man's attitude to Eve. We became self centred and relationships broke down. That would not be so if they had not eaten the fruit.

 

[Brian2]

But none of that is in the Garden story. That's all invented much later, brought into Christianity by Paul's small mention of it, and turned into a Big Deal by Augustine of Hippo. Large parts of Christianity have been about guilt ever since. The Jewish religion, to the best of my understanding, goes with the original text in Genesis.
There are no thousand-year-days in the Garden story ─ only and-there-was-evening -and-there-was-morning days. Check the text of Genesis to that point for yourself.

I have read Genesis 2 where the whole of the creation time is called one day.
There are no 24 hour days in either Genesis 1 or 2.
The judgement that God gave Adam. "On the day you eat the fruit you will certainly die" is like other such judicial decisions in the Bible and does not mean that they would die the same day, but they once they ate the fruit, on that day, the judgement of death was on them. It is similar to the one below.
1Kings 2:37 On the day you go out and cross the Kidron Valley, know for sure that you will die; your blood will be on your own head.”
It would be rather silly for the story to say they would die that same day and leave that in there when they did not die that same day. They left it in because it did not mean that imo.

 

[ChristineM]

I have heard it interpreted that God took Eve from the side of Adam, thus making them companions, equal.
Part of the consequences of the sin is the man's attitude to Eve. We became self centred and relationships broke down. That would not be so if they had not eaten the fruit.

And i have heard that god took a bit of the premier to make a secondary.

Consider the biblical attitude towards eve as tought to man

Dont get me on the entrapment route, it has already been shown on this thread and many others

 

[blü 2]

I have read Genesis 2 where the whole of the creation time is called one day.
There are no 24 hour days in either Genesis 1 or 2.

What does "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (Genesis 1:5) mean if not a 24 hour day? And so on through the six days of creation (Genesis 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23, 1:31)?

The judgement that God gave Adam. "On the day you eat the fruit you will certainly die" is like other such judicial decisions in the Bible and does not mean that they would die the same day

On the exact contrary, that's what it says so that's what it means.

but they once they ate the fruit, on that day, the judgement of death was on them.

The text says nothing of the kind.

It is similar to the one below.
1Kings 2:37 On the day you go out and cross the Kidron Valley, know for sure that you will die; your blood will be on your own head.”

The king said that, not God.

It would be rather silly for the story to say they would die that same day and leave that in there when they did not die that same day. They left it in because it did not mean that imo.

In that case the snake would never have needed to mention the matter. The simple fact that he did, and reassured Eve, "You will not die", shows your version doesn't capture the meaning.

 

[1213]

...The snake replies – completely truthfully – “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good from evil.” (3:5)
...
And after that they were both able to distinguish good from evil.
...
Isn’t it an extremely good thing that Eve is said to have done? Shouldn't we hold her legend in the highest regard, since we, like Eve, think it’s extremely good to be wise?
...

Knowledge and wisdom are not the same. It would have been much wiser to ask from God, “what does this mean that this serpent thing is claiming that you basically lied and that the fruit of this tree is actually good?“ Eve was not in my opinion wise, she desired to become like God, which I think makes her look more like vain, proud, conceited and power hungry than wise.

Also, the serpent didn’t tell the truth, they lost their life with God that day and begun to die. Death is just a relatively slow process.

 

[Brian2]

And i have heard that god took a bit of the premier to make a secondary.

Consider the biblical attitude towards eve as tought to man

Dont get me on the entrapment route, it has already been shown on this thread and many others

I heard that God said that it is not good for the man to be alone and so made a companion for him that was to his liking.
I don't really know what you are saying, it's a bit cryptic and the typo did not help.

 

[Brian2]

What does "And there was evening and there was morning, one day" (Genesis 1:5) mean if not a 24 hour day? And so on through the six days of creation (Genesis 1:8, 1:13, 1:19, 1:23, 1:31)?

You sound like you are doing what many skeptics do when discussing Genesis creation. Your attack is against the young earth creationists and you start saying that the text can only mean what the young earth creationists say it means.
In that regard, the YEC say that the sun was created on day 4 and so there was no evening and morning up till that point. Also the 7th day had no evening and morning in Gen 1 and so is still going even now.
I disagree with the YEC and see that "day" in Gen 1 does not mean a 24 hour day and also see that in Genesis 2 (which is not a second creation story) the whole of the 7 days of Genesis 1 is called a "day".

On the exact contrary, that's what it says so that's what it means.
The text says nothing of the kind.
The king said that, not God.

The King was making a judicial decision and judgement about a person.
The judgement and judicial decision of God is the way I see the "same day" and that has support in other parts of the OT as shown.
The 1000 year interpretation by JWs is another and another is that they died spiritually on that day, by losing fellowship with God. The last is also good.
Our spirit leaves our body and we die because our spirit is what gives our body life.
God leaves our spirit and our spirit dies.
I also think it is important to look at the actual Hebrew wording which I have heard means "on the same day, dying you will die". This takes the dying part of it forward an indefinite amount of time to the actual point of death.
Actually when God said "on that day", considering the other uses of "day" in Genesis 1 and 2, a 24 hour day may not have been what God meant.
Take your pick, all interpretations could work to explain the text.

In that case the snake would never have needed to mention the matter. The simple fact that he did, and reassured Eve, "You will not die", shows your version doesn't capture the meaning.

The snake lied when he said that they would not die. Simple as that. The snake mentioned nothing about any particular day.

 

[ChristineM]

I heard that God said that it is not good for the man to be alone and so made a companion for him that was to his liking.
I don't really know what you are saying, it's a bit cryptic and the typo did not help.

Interesting, god is completely absent you have heard it said that god said

The bible seems to say god made a subordinate

Yes i do typos, im dyslexic, something you dont understanding about a dyslexics writing then its best to ask rather than try to discredit them

 

[thomas t]

Isn’t it an extremely good thing that Eve is said to have done?

no, I don't agree.
for two reasons.
She made Adam break the only rule that there was.
When you are invited and the host asks you - as the only rule - to park the bike at a particular place... it would be polite to do so.
They broke the only rule set by God, I find this is not polite.

Secondly, if Eve showed that one short and concise conversation with the devil made her change her plans in a way that they broke the rules... God might think what comes next?

I think it is not worthy of praise to have one's plans informed by Satan.

 

[Saint Frankenstein]

In the Garden story, God creates Adam, puts him in the Garden, points to “the tree of the knowledge of good and evil” [the ‘Tree’], and says to Adam “of the [Tree] you shall not eat, for in the day that you eat of it you shall die” (Genesis 2:17).

A bit later God takes a rib from Adam and “made [it] into a woman and brought her to the man.”

Next, Eve says to the snake, “God said, ‘You shall not eat of the fruit of the [Tree] [...] neither shall you touch it, lest you die.’ ” (3:3).

The snake replies – completely truthfully – “You will not die. For God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God, knowing good from evil.” (3:5)

“So when the woman saw that [...] the [Tree] was to be desired to make one wise, she took of its fruit and ate.” (3:6).

And she gave some to Adam too.

“Then the eyes of both were opened.” (3:7).

And after that they were both able to distinguish good from evil.

Christians blame Eve for the Fall. They say she and Adam sinned. (Nothing of the kind is in the Garden story, and sin's impossible for people who are denied knowledge of good and evil, and Ezekiel 18:20 says unequivocally that sin isn’t inheritable. But leave that aside.)

This is the point.

Isn’t it an extremely good thing that Eve is said to have done? Shouldn't we hold her legend in the highest regard, since we, like Eve, think it’s extremely good to be wise?

Shouldn’t we have statues and images of Eve in all our churches and public spaces as a symbol of Human Wisdom?

Something we often seem not to have enough of?

Yes, I always thought that Eve was the more clever ld the two.

By the way, Adam and Eve are considered saints in traditional Christianity: Saint Adam and Saint Eve (First Age of the world)

 

[Valjean]

If we look around us we can see why knowledge of good and evil was a bad thing.

I don't see that we've ever acquired much knowledge of good and evil. The fruit didn't work.

They had to take responsibility for what they had done. That was part of the consequences.
Something about justice and about leading humans to a better place.

So why place temptation in front of apes you know have no ability to resist it? Better place? -- God could have just left us in the garden, with no forbidden fruit.

Did that knowledge get passed on after Adam and Eve?
Confusion probably snuck in especially with grey areas.

What knowledge? How are you defining knowledge?
Knowledge isn't technology. Technology is morally neutral.
When have humans ever agreed on what constitutes good and evil, and whom it applies to? I still say we have yet to acquire much knowledge of this.

And I guess we tend to justify what we want to do and so that becomes what we might call good, or what we call neutral.

Yes, that seems to be what humans have always done.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

But none of that is in the Garden story. That's all invented much later, brought into Christianity by Paul's small mention of it, and turned into a Big Deal by Augustine of Hippo. Large parts of Christianity have been about guilt ever since. The Jewish religion, to the best of my understanding, goes with the original text in Genesis.
There are no thousand-year-days in the Garden story ─ only and-there-was-evening -and-there-was-morning days. Check the text of Genesis to that point for yourself.

' the evening and the morning ' is referring to the ' 6 creative days ', Not the life span of a thousand years.
Genesis 1:1 through Genesis 2:4 is about the 6 creative days of unknown length.
There is Nothing in chapter one saying if each creative day was of the same or differing lengths of time.
As far as the 7th day it is still on going.....
See how old Adam was when he died at Genesis 5:5. Genesis 5:27 for mankind after Adam sinned.
Because of Adam No one could live past a thousand years until the Flood of Noah's Day.
The Garden story is more than Genesis chapter 2-3 but continues through chapter 5.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

...............
So why place temptation in front of apes you know have no ability to resist it? Better place? -- God could have just left us in the garden, with no forbidden fruit.
What knowledge? How are you defining knowledge?
When have humans ever agreed on what constitutes good and evil, and whom it applies to? I still say we have yet to acquire much knowledge of this.................

If you had a generous neighbor with many fruit trees and he said come over any time and have a much fruit as you want but don't take fruit off this one particular tree, would you consider your neighbor as unreasonable_________
God already said breaking the Law of Eden (one tree) would end in death, so death was the evil for wilfully stealing.

The forbidden tree was Not against any animal, but for the then 2 intelligent humans - Genesis 2:17.
Kind of like you were left in a HUGE warehouse chock full of your favorite candy and was told it's all yours except just for 'one single piece of candy' to not take or eat.

Since everyone dies, then yes, we have acquired more than enough knowledge of the bad / the evil.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

no, I don't agree.
for two reasons.
She made Adam break the only rule that there was.
When you are invited and the host asks you - as the only rule - to park the bike at a particular place... it would be polite to do so.
They broke the only rule set by God, I find this is not polite.
Secondly, if Eve showed that one short and concise conversation with the devil made her change her plans in a way that they broke the rules... God might think what comes next?
I think it is not worthy of praise to have one's plans informed by Satan.

I find we don't know if it was just one short conversation with Satan that made her change her plans to break the Law.
I say this because at Genesis 3:6 it says the woman ' saw ' and that is was ' pleasant to the eyes '....( pleasing )
It would take time for Eve to 'observe' in order to 'see' how good the forbidden fruit was.
She could have observed birds eating the fruit and nothing happening to them.
Eve could have seen fallen fruit to the ground with an animal eating it and nothing happening to it.
So, we have a short synopsis of what happened without more of the details.
Thus, there was Nothing wrong about the fruit itself, but the Law that was placed against that one particular tree equaled: death.
For all we know there could have also been many more fruit trees in the Garden just like that one forbidden tree.

 

[URAVIP2ME]

Read the words not the interpretation that best suites you. If you feel women should remain silent when no such restriction applies to men that is subjugation[/QUOTE]

As 1 Corinthian 14:34 mentions ' in the congregation...' ( Don't disrupt the meeting )
The Law or ' Principles of Headship '.
Just like in the school system the pupil is Not to have authority over the teacher, the teacher does Not have authority over the principal, the principal does Not have authority over the Superintendent and No on calls that as subjugation.

There can only be one ship's Captain the rest are under the Captain. Even Christ is under his God - 1 Corinthians 3:23

 

[blü 2]

Knowledge and wisdom are not the same. It would have been much wiser to ask from God, “what does this mean that this serpent thing is claiming that you basically lied and that the fruit of this tree is actually good?“ Eve was not in my opinion wise, she desired to become like God, which I think makes her look more like vain, proud, conceited and power hungry than wise.

Eve, like Adam, was an innocent, denied awareness of right and wrong, and therefore incapable of sin, which requires such an awareness.

Also, the serpent didn’t tell the truth, they lost their life with God that day and begun to die. Death is just a relatively slow process.

No, in the story, the snake spoke only the truth. God (1) had never intended they live forever (Genesis 3:22-23) and (2) had threatened them with premature death if they ate the fruit.

But that's incidental.

It still seems extremely obvious to me that knowledge of good and evil is a seriously good thing, and that Eve (in her legend) had done something we should all applaud, bringing the knowledge of right and wrong to mankind, which is called wisdom (Genesis 3:6).

How can anyone disagree?