EVERLASTING OLD COVENANT (Jew V Christian)

[rosends]

The passages in Isaiah referring to the Suffering Servant apply perfectly to Jesus. And clearly imply an individual's suffering.

Here is a (lengthy) section from a book called "Their Hollow Inheritance"
----------------
Isaiah 53:3

He was despised and forsaken by men; a man of pains, and accustomed to disease, and like one from whom men hide their faces, he was despised and we esteemed him not.

In contrast, Jesus was supposedly very popular:

Luke 4:15

And he taught in their synagogues, being glorified by all.

Isaiah 53:7

He was oppressed and afflicted, yet he opened not his mouth; like a lamb led to the slaughter and like a sheep that is dumb before its shearers, he opened not his mouth.

Jesus did "open his mouth" on the cross:

Matthew 27:46

About the ninth hour Jesus cried out with a loud voice: "E--li, E--li, lama sabachthani?" that is: "My G-d, my G-d, why have You forsaken me?"

Although the New Testament translates "sabachthani" as "forsaken me" (echoing Psalms 22:2), it means "slaughtering me." Compare:

Deuteronomy 12:21

...then you shall slaughter [sabachta] of your herd and of your flock....

In other words, Jesus screamed out, "My G-d, my G-d, why are You slaughtering me?" A self--styled messiah, Jesus was shocked that G-d was actually letting him die!

Isaiah 53:9

And they made his grave with the wicked and his deaths among the rich, although he had done no violence and there was no deceit in his mouth.

Jesus made his grave with the rich, not the wicked:

Matthew 27:57, 59--60

When it was evening, there came a rich man from Arimathea named Joseph....And Joseph took [Jesus'] body, and wrapped it in a clean linen shroud, and laid it in his own new tomb....

Conversely, Jesus died among the wicked, not the rich:

Matthew 27:38

Then the two robbers were crucified with him, one on the right hand, and one on the left.

The phrase "in his deaths" is also inappropriate for Jesus, for he died only one death.

Even more problematic, Jesus is known to have committed violent acts:

1.

Matthew 21:18--19

In the morning, as [Jesus] was returning to the city, he was hungry. And seeing a fig tree by the wayside he went to it, and found nothing on it but leaves only. And he said to it: "May no fruit ever come from you again!" And the fig tree dried up at once.

If this really happened, what wrong did the tree do, especially since we learn:

Mark 11:13

...it was not the season for figs.

2.

Jesus is said to have permitted "demons" to possess two thousand herd of swine, which promptly stampeded off a cliff and drowned in the sea (Mark 5:11--13). Surely he could have exorcised these "demons":

Matthew 12:27

And if I [Jesus] cast out demons by Be--el'zebul (Prince of demons), by whom do your [Pharisees'] sons cast them out? Therefore, they shall be your judges.

G-d also enabled [Solomon] to learn that skill which expels demons, which is a science useful and sanative to men. He composed such incantations also by which distempers are alleviated. And he left behind him the manner of using exorcisms, by which they drive away demons, so that they never return, and this method of cure is of great force to this day: for I have seen a certain man of my own country[,] whose name was Eleazar, releasing people that were demonical in the presence of Vespasian [king of Rome], and his sons, and his captains, and the whole multitude of his soldiers.Josephus Antiquities book 8, chapter 2, section 5

 

[rosends]

Judaism DOES have a notion of the End of the World.

That's what Jesus's Second Coming will be. The prophet Daniel foretold it.

The Jewish texts about oil, etc may of course be merely symbolic - have you considered that ?

The Jewish texts don't speak of the end of the world. Daniel was not a prophet. The oil is literal.
Next?

 

[Lionel Refson]

Incompleteness isn't omission. But it is incomplete - since the covenant with Abraham is made only with one people, and God remembers and loves the rest of humanity directly (not just indirectly via Abraham and his people).

God spoke again when He walked this earth, having taken on human nature as Jesus of Nazareth, who said at the Last Supper: "I give you a New Covenant in my blood." Jesus is the Fulfilment of the Law; the Christian Church is the New Israel.

That doesn't mean the Old Covenant and Old Israel are superseded; merely extended universally.

God made everything universal in Genesis 9 when God blessed the whole of Humanity to be fruitful and multiply. Then there followed a coveting, followed by an uprising and ending with more lies IMO

The Crusades were a result of people (in this case, Mohammed and his followers) NOT accepting Jesus Christ.

Jesus foresaw that He would be opposed and rifts and splits would arise; But the achievement of His death and resurrection far, far outweighs any downsides.

All the real improvements in the world this last two millennia are directly or indirectly the result of Christianity.

Should God have left the world in the truly appalling state it was in the at the time of the Caesars ?

IMO God left this world to us (because God gave us freewill) back in Genesis 9
Gen 9:6 says it all. It means imo that even the murderers will be dealt with by human hands. God left us to it and never re-appeared after Gen 9

 

[shunyadragon]

'Yeah guys, it has happened, really! Just not the way G-d said it would!'


Because no-one needed anymore understanding, the prophesies are very clear. If Jesus did none of the stuff the Moshiach is supposed to do according to the Hebrew Scripture, he's not what he claims. How was anyone supposed to judge him if what you say is true? Anyone could say 'I'm the messiah; I know the Tanakh says this, but really it means this and also this that it never said, but you're just finding out now because I told you so.' Not very convincing.

I do not consider any ancient religious worldview remotely convincing, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because of the narrow cultural understanding and interpretation of ancient scripture and their beliefs including the view God has chosen them alone to be the bearing of his 'true' message. The problem pretty negates the existence of God in the context of these ancient tribal cultural paradigms unless it true that God is arbitrarily selective about God's relationship with humanity. The world has changed, and we can know look back at these ancient worldviews, and fully realize their limited context in the more universal relationship of God to Creation and humanity IF God exists.

The alternative, of course, is the atheist/agnostic view that considers the natural universal perspective of an existence with no gods.

 

[Lionel Refson]

I do not consider any ancient religious worldview remotely convincing, including Judaism, Christianity and Islam, because of the narrow cultural understanding and interpretation of ancient scripture and their beliefs including the view God has chosen them alone to be the bearing of his 'true' message. The problem pretty negates the existence of God in the context of these ancient tribal cultural paradigms unless it true that God is arbitrarily selective about God's relationship with humanity. The world has changed, and we can know look back at these ancient worldviews, and fully realize their limited context in the more universal relationship of God to Creation and humanity IF God exists.

The alternative, of course, is the atheist/agnostic view that considers the natural universal perspective of an existence with no gods.

There is another alternative. Find the God that the Bible speaks of before tribal self-interest kicked in.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Only Jesus is MORE than a prophet - only Jesus has died for us.

Read about the Bab and you will find that is not so, the Bab also gave His life that all humanity may be released from bondage and accept tge promised one.

The Bab was Elijah and also a Messenger of God that prepared us for the One that all Jews, Christians, Budhists, Zorastrians, Muslims, some Hindu and Bab'i had waited for. The 'Glory of God', the 'Self of God, no less. Baha'u'llah is 'Christ'.

Understanding who is Christ, will be the 'Name' that brings us all to understand that the 'Glory of God' is but our One God. All Gods Messengers are 'Christ', they are all the First and they are all the Last. They one and all are all we can know of God, they are what we know of our 'One God'.

Food for thought, but I suspect that you may not even read that and if you do, cast it as quickly as you can behind your back.

Peace be with you.

RegardsTony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

I realise that there are about 600 other commandments - many of them about trifles.

How can you say that ANY law given by God to Israel is "trifling?" What would that say about God?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

What then did Jesus lack ? What didn't He do that He should have done ?

The truth is, there will be no better Messiah - nor indeed any other Messiah at all !

You mean as Messiah, what more should he have done? Try:

• Issuing in an era of peace
• Ruling from Jerusalem (being "David")
• Bringing all the Jews out of diaspora back to the Land of Israel

 

[TransmutingSoul]

You mean as Messiah, what more should he have done? Try:

• Issuing in an era of peace
• Ruling from Jerusalem (being "David")
• Bringing all the Jews out of diaspora back to the Land of Israel

Thay can have already be done and we can not see it has, as it all hapened in an unexpected way.

Regards Tony

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Evolution refers to that of new species.

Since the arrival of homo sapiens, humanity has not evolved physically; nor spiritually, since spiritual laws (e.g. "Thou shalt not kill") are even more immutable than the laws of physics.

Species is merely a helpful construct. Anyone who is a serious student knows that objectively, in the slow evolutionary slide, there is no boundary between one so-called "species" and the next. Every species is a transitional form.

What we conveniently label "modern man" has existed for about 200,000 years, but this is, as I have said, contrived. He didn't suddenly appear. If you go back further 1000 years, 5000, 10,000 years, you will find hominids that look and act much the same.

At any rate, modern man has indeed changed since then. For example, we developed the capacity for speech. About 40,000 years ago, we quite suddenly became capable of art. With the dawn of agriculture, we evolved a different sort of jaw resulting in overbite, which meant (among other things) that we could finally pronounce F and V. Since we began cooking our food, our teeth have continued to get smaller, even to this day.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

This is what these Jews would have known from the Torah. Deut.18:20. 'But the prophet, which shall presume to speak a word in my name, which I have not commanded him to speak, or that shall speak in the name of other gods, even that prophet shall die.'

What is your point?

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Does the Tanakh, or New Testament, say that a man should not sacrifice themselves for others? I'd like to see the scripture.

Self sacrifice is a virtue, but we not talking here about a sacrifice that atones for sin, much less the sins of others. There is no such thing as human sacrifice that atones for sin.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

The sin offering, I believe, ideally involved blood. [See Leviticus 4:1-35.] It was only when people were too poor to afford an animal sacrifice that other offerings were made. [Hence Wandering Monk's reference]

It doesn't matter that blood sacrifices were the ideal for sin offerings (which btw were only for unintentional sins). The point is that many sin offerings were not blood, and they were sufficient for atonement. Contrast this with the verse in Hebrews that makes the absolute statement that without blood there can be no remission of sin. You cannot have both be true at the same time!!!!!! Either the Torah is flawed or Hebrews is flawed.

 

[IndigoChild5559]

Thay can have already be done and we can not see it has, as it all hapened in an unexpected way.

Regards Tony

This is just balogne. None of these things have happened.

• We Jews are still in diaspora (although the gathering has begun).
• There is no world peace--indeed the last century saw the dropping of the atomic bomb.
• If anyone thinks Netanyahu is the Messiah, they are mistaken (he is the one ruling from Jerusalem).

 

[TransmutingSoul]

This is just balogne. None of these things have happened.

• We Jews are still in diaspora (although the gathering has begun).
• There is no world peace--indeed the last century saw the dropping of the atomic bomb.
• If anyone thinks Netanyahu is the Messiah, they are mistaken (he is the one ruling from Jerusalem).

Therin is the problem, you await your expectations.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

There is another alternative. Find the God that the Bible speaks of before tribal self-interest kicked in.

As far as I can tell the entire history of human is centered around tribal cultures up until recently whar ther is a trend to move toward a more universal.perspective.

As far as I have studied for many years the Bible cover to cover is based on the tribal culture of the descendents of Adam and Abraham, and for Christians the lineage of Jesus Christ as descendent from Abraham.The Bible only deals with the cultural tribal history of region centered on what is now Israel today.

What would you refer to as before?

 

[shunyadragon]

This is just balogne. None of these things have happened.

• We Jews are still in diaspora (although the gathering has begun).
• There is no world peace--indeed the last century saw the dropping of the atomic bomb.
• If anyone thinks Netanyahu is the Messiah, they are mistaken (he is the one ruling from Jerusalem).

This represents an interpretation of ancient scripture from one narrow cultural perspective, nothing more.

 

[Rival]

Therin is the problem, you await your expectations.

Regards Tony

It's not just our expectations, it's what G-d said through the prophets in writing we consider holy and inspired. Nothing will therefore change our expectations.

 

[TransmutingSoul]

It's not just our expectations, it's what G-d said through the prophets in writing we consider holy and inspired. Nothing will therefore change our expectations.

They are still your vision of what God has offered.

I see the same passages fulfilled.

Therin lays the history of God and His Messengers. It is the Messenger that gives the required new eyes and new ears and unless we look through those eyes and hear with those ears, well we continue to see what we want to see.

I will give another vision to the points posted above.

Regards Tony

 

[shunyadragon]

It's not just our expectations, it's what G-d said through the prophets in writing we consider holy and inspired. Nothing will therefore change our expectations.

You have described the problem very well. It remains the fact that you are basing your view on the ancient perspective of one set of scripture from one tribal culture without provenance of original authorship. Like all competing scriptures and interpretations, your view represents one narrow cultural perspective in ancient history. We have come a long way since..