Every country should be run by secular governments

[interminable]

Every country should be run by secular governments, providing justice to all population equally and equitably. Only then peace would be established in the world.
That suits Ahmadiyya Islam, the reformed Islam or its form in the times of Muhammad.

Regards

The only way that we can have a society hoping to reach salvation is theocracy

Look at turky u will find your false idea
Look at Iran u will find the truth

 

[Augustus]

I paid attention.

So Nazi Germany was a Christian theocracy?

Or are you using a 'convenient' definition of secular?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Well if you can talk the pope and freemasons to get out of our government I will back you on that.

Myself, I will stop at nothing short of all religions having no influence on the state.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

The only way that we can have a society hoping to reach salvation is theocracy

Not all of us care about your Salvation, and you have no right to expect us to live up to your morality. You have your ways, I have mine. Everyone else is better off if we learn to tolerate each other and even tolerate being offended over some of the things we do.

 

[Aquitaine]

I wasn't arguing against secularism, just the claim that it makes people less violent. I have a strong preference for secular government.

Oh I see, fair enough. Apologies for the misunderstanding.

 

[Aquitaine]

Myself, I will stop at nothing short of all religions having no influence on the state.

Amen sister, preach it!

 

[Kirran]

Guys Hitler did straight out say that he'd have preferred if Islam had been the religion to reach Germany rather than Christianity because it was more martial and stuff like this. He seemed to see these religions as useful social tools but not to respect their doctrines.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So Nazi Germany was a Christian theocracy?

Or are you using a 'convenient' definition of secular?

From Mein Kampf:
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.

We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland.

Many of his speeches were more-or-less approximately about the same. Just add "God and Country" and "Gott mitt Uns" and there's not much denying Christianity's influence.

 

[Aquitaine]

The only way that we can have a society hoping to reach salvation is theocracy

Look at turky u will find your false idea
Look at Iran u will find the truth

Ah, theocracy. . . so you're happy living under a Christian or Jewish theocracy then?

 

[interminable]

Ah, theocracy. . . so you're happy living under a Christian or Jewish theocracy then?

Not them
Since those religions are abrogated.

 

[interminable]

Not all of us care about your Salvation, and you have no right to expect us to live up to your morality. You have your ways, I have mine. Everyone else is better off if we learn to tolerate each other and even tolerate being offended over some of the things we do.

I just said my opinion . I didn't force u to do so actually I've no force to to it.[emoji16] [emoji16]

 

[Aquitaine]

Not them
Since those religions are abrogated.

Not according to their scriptures and followers.

 

[Kemosloby]

Myself, I will stop at nothing short of all religions having no influence on the state.

Fine with me, Jesus didn't want anything to do with governments, at least until he comes the second time. Satan offered Jesus to be king of the earth if he would bow down and worship him, but Jesus refused. Instead he said give unto Ceasar that which is Ceasars, so that's how it should be until the second coming.

 

[Kirran]

Not them
Since those religions are abrogated.

The problem with theocracy comes when people who don't follow the enshrined form of religion have to live under its rule. It disrespects them as citizens and goes against their rights. Look at how religious minorities and former Muslims fare in Iran. I personally know a few Iranians, and all of them are people who were raised Muslim and aren't Muslim anymore. As a result, they cannot return to Iran.

 

[interminable]

The problem with theocracy comes when people who don't follow the enshrined form of religion have to live under its rule. It disrespects them as citizens and goes against their rights. Look at how religious minorities and former Muslims fare in Iran. I personally know a few Iranians, and all of them are people who were raised Muslim and aren't Muslim anymore. As a result, they cannot return to Iran.

Sir they could have at least hide their conversion and live in Iran.

Who told minorities are oppressed in my Country???
They receive money from our government and have their own MP and...

Besides if a society should want a religious leader to lead them. Otherwise it doesn't work.
Imam Khomeini was a great gnostic that his words still shake people's hearts. People loved him. That's why Iranian people supported him.

Besides
As I said before the US tries to undermine our county because they know better than everyone that we wanna say as Shia religion that we can reach god and simultaneously do science. U can be religious and at the same time reach high technology and...

But this is very hard for them.

 

[Kirran]

Sir they could have at least hide their conversion and live in Iran.

Who told minorities are oppressed in my Country???
They receive money from our government and have their own MP and...

Besides if a society should want a religious leader to lead them. Otherwise it doesn't work.
Imam Khomeini was a great gnostic that his words still shake people's hearts. People loved him. That's why Iranian people supported him.

Besides
As I said before the US tries to undermine our county because they know better than everyone that we wanna say as Shia religion that we can reach god and simultaneously do science. U can be religious and at the same time reach high technology and...

But this is very hard for them.

So people should have to hide their religion to live in Iran? Great.

People of religious minorities who have fled your country have told me they're oppressed. Try being a Baha'i in Iran. Reports are also that even Sunni Muslims are routinely harassed and discriminated by authorities, not to mention Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews. Christian, Zoroastrian and Jewish schools have to have Muslim principals. Non-Muslims are barred from high positions in government. There's a lot of reports of violence and discrimination against religious minorities in Iran.

It makes sense you wouldn't see this, because you're part of the privileged majority. It's like White Americans who say African Americans have no problems.

It's not "Iranian people supported him". Many did. And there are many who did not. Although of course many people who reject the regime will also call themselves Persian rather than Iranian, I have noticed.

Dude most people in the USA are religious, you know that?

 

[Augustus]

From Mein Kampf:
I believe today that my conduct is in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator.

Once again the songs of the fatherland roared to the heavens along the endless marching columns, and for the last time the Lord's grace smiled on His ungrateful children.

Thus inwardly armed with confidence in God and the unshakable stupidity of the voting citizenry, the politicians can begin the fight for the 'remaking' of the Reich as they call it.

We don't ask the Almighty, 'Lord, make us free!" We want to be active, to work, to work together, so that when the hour comes that we appear before the Lord we can say to him: 'Lord, you see that we have changed.' The German people is no longer a people of dishonor and shame, of self-destructiveness and cowardice. No, Lord, the German people is once more strong in spirit, strong in determination, strong in the willingness to bear every sacrifice. Lord, now bless our battle and our freedom, and therefore our German people and fatherland.

Many of his speeches were more-or-less approximately about the same. Just add "God and Country" and "Gott mitt Uns" and there's not much denying Christianity's influence.

So Hitler was a Christian, who hated Christian morality and viewed it as perpetuating servitude, who surrounded himself with fanatical anti-clericalists like Himmler and Goebbels, who has a well documented record of anti-church policies, who executed clergy, who stripped state institutions of Christian symbols, whose political rallies featured pagan and folkish imagery and ritual, etc. etc.

Hitler's views did undergo multiple evolutions over the years as the Nazis gained in power. At first, Christianity was a means to an end, a language by which he could stir the passions and coopt existing aspects of society to his own ends.

To make propaganda effective you must first decide what end it is to serve—in this case the creation of a new morality that will serve the People’s State. This end justifies all means. “The most cruel weapons were the most humane, provided they helped toward a speedier [achievement of the goal]” (Mein Kampf, 107).

For one must never judge the speeches of a statesman to his people by the impression which it leaves on the minds of a university professor, but by the effect it produces on the people. (Mein Kampf, 266)

What form should it take? “It must appeal to the feelings of the public rather than their reasoning powers.” “It is a mistake to organize the direct propaganda as if it were a manifold system of scientific instruction.” “Arrest the attention and appeal to the hearts of the national masses” (Mein Kampf, 108).

Over time as his power became entrenched even the coopting of Christianity was jettisoned.

Our revolution is not merely a political and social revolution; we are at the outset of a tremendous revolution in moral ideas and in men’s spiritual orientation. (Rauschning 1939, 220)

Those who see in National Socialism nothing more than a political movement know scarcely anything of it. It is more even than a religion: it is the will to create mankind anew. (Rauschning 1939, 242)


Arguments for his 'Christianity' are based on quotes from a noted propagandist who believes the end justifies the means, who despised Christian ethics, who in power pursued anti-Christian policies, who created a pagan rather than Christian aesthetic as the essence of his politics and used pagan/pantheistic/materialist/rationalist/Gnostic/social Darwinist and whatever other ideas best suited his needs at any given time.

Actions speak loader than words.

 

[interminable]

So people should have to hide their religion to live in Iran? Great.

People of religious minorities who have fled your country have told me they're oppressed. Try being a Baha'i in Iran. Reports are also that even Sunni Muslims are routinely harassed and discriminated by authorities, not to mention Christians, Zoroastrians and Jews. Christian, Zoroastrian and Jewish schools have to have Muslim principals. Non-Muslims are barred from high positions in government. There's a lot of reports of violence and discrimination against religious minorities in Iran.

It makes sense you wouldn't see this, because you're part of the privileged majority. It's like White Americans who say African Americans have no problems.

It's not "Iranian people supported him". Many did. And there are many who did not. Although of course many people who reject the regime will also call themselves Persian rather than Iranian, I have noticed.

Dude most people in the USA are religious, you know that?

To be honest I can't count Christianity in this moment as a religion because going to church just for one day won't make u religious.
Besides can a Muslim be president in the US?

Bahai are apostates so they aren't minority at all.
Those who u mentioned do something against laws or the government that had to leave Iran.

I don't deny that in high position we don't allow even sunny to be elected because it will cause some problems.
Actually every country do that.

And the majority are Shia then sunny
All the laws are based on Shia jurisprudence.

If the majority convert to other religions or they don't want leadership of a cleric the situation will be different and necessarily the government should be changed.

 

[Kirran]

To be honest I can't count Christianity in this moment as a religion because going to church just for one day won't make u religious.

There are Muslims who just go to mosque once a week and that's it as well, doesn't make much difference to the fact they are both religions.

Besides can a Muslim be president in the US?

There are no legal restrictions. The USA came close to having a Jewish president in this election cycle.

Bahai are apostates so they aren't minority at all.
Those who u mentioned do something against laws or the government that had to leave Iran.

In what way is a Baha'i an apostate? A cousin of mine is a Baha'i.

Many Baha'i were born and raised in Baha'i families.

And even if people are apostates, what's the problem with that?

Your country is being increasingly accused, with good reasons, of being in the early stages of a genocide - ERIC - Iranian Baha'is and Genocide Early Warning., Social Science Record, 1987

I don't deny that in high position we don't allow even sunny to be elected because it will cause some problems.
Actually every country do that.

No they don't. Most countries actually do not do that. It is a minority of countries which restrict people of certain religious groups from roles in government. It's the sign of a society with little respect for human equality.

If the majority convert to other religions or they don't want leadership of a cleric the situation will be different and necessarily the government should be changed.

That's difficult when the government zealously oppresses any opposition and hunts down and kills those it deems to be changing their religion. https://web.archive.org/web/20021113041505/http://www.hrw.org/press/2002/11/iranacademic.htm

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Arguments for his 'Christianity' are based on quotes from a noted propagandist who believes the end justifies the means, who despised Christian ethics, who in power pursued anti-Christian policies, who created a pagan rather than Christian aesthetic as the essence of his politics and used pagan/pantheistic/materialist/rationalist/Gnostic/social Darwinist and whatever other ideas best suited his needs at any given time.

You pretty much summed up the whole of Christian history. It did borrow heavily from Paganism, the ends pretty much always justified the means, and though some say their actions are "anti-Christian" we can find Biblical evidence to support their claims. It's not even unusual for some to believe the Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves, because just look at how God treats them in the Bible. Plus we have it straight from the horse's mouth that "Hey! I'm doing the Will of God!" It's almost like trying to diminish the Christian influence behind Mike Pence's RFRA. It's there. Get over it.