Every country should be run by secular governments

[Kirran]

You pretty much summed up the whole of Christian history. It did borrow heavily from Paganism, the ends pretty much always justified the means, and though some say their actions are "anti-Christian" we can find Biblical evidence to support their claims. It's not even unusual for some to believe the Jews brought the Holocaust upon themselves, because just look at how God treats them in the Bible. Plus we have it straight from the horse's mouth that "Hey! I'm doing the Will of God!" It's almost like trying to diminish the Christian influence behind Mike Pence's RFRA. It's there. Get over it.

That he took advantage of Christianity when it was politically useful is very different from saying he was Christian-influenced.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Why can't theistic governments provide "justice to all population equally and equitably"?

Because it inherently requires a bias to that religion.

The only way that we can have a society hoping to reach salvation is theocracy

Look at turky u will find your false idea
Look at Iran u will find the truth

Iran wants nuclear weapons. Yemen is raping little girls, Saudi Arabia is beheading people in the streets. Meanwhile Switzerland is hosting the Noble Peace prize and Japan is inventing robots that will one day outpreform human beings in sports events.

Secular societies as well as governments tend to make a better place to live than religious ones.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

That he took advantage of Christianity when it was politically useful is very different from saying he was Christian-influenced.

We can see the economic issues flaming the Crusades, we can also see such manipulations of the masses as clearly they were taken advantage of, but that doesn't diminish the fact Christianity was behind it.

 

[Augustus]

It's there. Get over it.

How would you explain the lack of 'it' from Hitler and all the other top Nazis when they were actually in power as compared to a propaganda text written a decade previously?

Were they hiding their light under a bushel?

 

[Shad]

Every country should be run by secular governments, providing justice to all population equally and equitably. Only then peace would be established in the world. That suits Ahmadiyya Islam, the reformed Islam or its form in the times of Muhammad.

Regards

I can not agree as your terms are far too vague, you have no policy beyond the definition of the words themselves, no stated structure of the government, it's role in the lives of citizens, which rights are provided, which are rights are not provided, etc. After all Communism is secular, treats all people as equal, provided equitably by destroying the classes system, by ignoring the accomplishment of the individual in favor of the group, is collectivist rather individualistic. It also has completely failed when used as a system of government.

Your idea seems more like a leftist utopian fantasy thus a delusion which ignores reality.

 

[Kirran]

We can see the economic issues flaming the Crusades, we can also see such manipulations of the masses as clearly they were taken advantage of, but that doesn't diminish the fact Christianity was behind it.

Arguable I suppose, Christianity was no doubt a necessary factor in the Crusades. But I really don't see that link for Nazism.

 

[psychoslice]

They do when what they own/want to own is a large area of land...

My god that has been happening forever, look at Israel.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

How would you explain the lack of 'it' from Hitler and all the other top Nazis when they were actually in power as compared to a propaganda text written a decade previously?

God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work.
That was spoken, by Hitler, just a few months before he died.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Arguable I suppose, Christianity was no doubt a necessary factor in the Crusades. But I really don't see that link for Nazism.

The anti-Semitism itself by then was rather a firmly established Christian tradition. It was the unison of "God and Country." Every time God was mentioned in Nazi communications, they meant Jehovah, who was going to bless the German people for doing his bidding.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

We have dedicated our lives to the fight against the murderers of Christ … if we always think of Adolf Hitler then we cannot fail to receive strength and benediction from heaven.
- Julius Streicher.

 

[Augustus]

God the Almighty has made our nation. By defending its existence we are defending His work.
That was spoken, by Hitler, just a few months before he died.

So nothing to do with anything actually recognisably Christian then?

There are plenty of things that could be considered deistic/pantheistic/etc., along with all kinds of other beliefs.

You also have Nazi institutions like the Ahnenerbe producing things like this:

A real religion has to be comprehensible to the people without explanation from
priests; priests are not unanimous in their interpretation anyway… For each and
every statement found in the Bible there is another which—in a typically Jewish
manner—communicates the exact opposite. What does the word “belief” mean
anyway? It actually refers to something negative. In contrast to this, that which is
positive is knowledge. Belief therefore is not knowing, or the non-acceptance of
something as right. All belief is therefore something uncertain, presumed! In
opposition to this is the Germanic religion of positive knowledge, which is based
on events that sweep everything along with them [Allmachtgeschehen], events
that we can see and experience in the shaking of the foundations of archaic
sacrament. This is the sense of having to believe something, for we all believe or
want to believe!

 

[Augustus]

The anti-Semitism itself by then was rather a firmly established Christian tradition. It was the unison of "God and Country." Every time God was mentioned in Nazi communications, they meant Jehovah, who was going to bless the German people for doing his bidding.

Overall, we'll agree to disagree on Hitler's Christianity.

Out of interest though, do you consider Secular Humanism to be a product of Christianity?

 

[Shadow Wolf]

So nothing to do with anything actually recognisably Christian then?

How is that not recognizably Christian? He acknowledges God's work, and then says to defend it. You might as well claim it's not recognizably Christian when a quote from Rick Sanatorium mentions god, but not any specific god other than just saying god. Of course we know who he's actually talking about.

You also have Nazi institutions like the Ahnenerbe producing things like this:

A real religion has to be comprehensible to the people without explanation from
priests; priests are not unanimous in their interpretation anyway… For each and
every statement found in the Bible there is another which—in a typically Jewish
manner—communicates the exact opposite. What does the word “belief” mean
anyway? It actually refers to something negative. In contrast to this, that which is
positive is knowledge. Belief therefore is not knowing, or the non-acceptance of
something as right. All belief is therefore something uncertain, presumed! In
opposition to this is the Germanic religion of positive knowledge, which is based
on events that sweep everything along with them [Allmachtgeschehen], events
that we can see and experience in the shaking of the foundations of archaic
sacrament. This is the sense of having to believe something, for we all believe or
want to believe!

It does seem the Nazis wanted control over the State and Church. Which makes sense considering 'God and Country' were rallying cries then kind of like how it is in America today.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Overall, we'll agree to disagree on Hitler's Christianity.

Out of interest though, do you consider Secular Humanism to be a product of Christianity?

There's no way it ever should seriously be considered a product of Christianity because Secularism lacks religion and Secular Humanism allows for many things that the Bible does not allow for, even mandates death over. Secular Humanism gives us freedom of and from religion, Christianity gives us laws about killing those who worship other gods. Secular humanism is sexual freedom - to Christianity sex is shameful and dirty. Freedom of speech, freedom of association, and rights for women aren't permitted according to the Bible either.

 

[Kirran]

Fundamentalist and conservative forms of Christianity do not define its totality nor its potential.

 

[Aquitaine]

Sir they could have at least hide their conversion and live in Iran.

That isn't tolerance, that's the complete opposite. I'm so thankful I don't live under a theocracy.

 

[Shadow Wolf]

Fundamentalist and conservative forms of Christianity do not define its totality nor its potential.

But we call them "fundamentalist" and "conservative" approaches for a reason, and that is because they are sticking with the most fundamental values of their religion. This often comes in the form of misogyny, warfare, genocide, anti-Semitism, child abuse, denial of rights, and many other atrocities.
Liberals and moderates are perpetuating the same book, with the same messages, with the same justification for evil, but they tend to ignore those parts. They'd rather make excuses than just admit their system is built upon barbarism, not once are they given permission to relax the laws, and it's better left in the past where it belongs rather than guiding 21st century policy and social relations.

 

[Kirran]

But we call them "fundamentalist" and "conservative" approaches for a reason, and that is because they are sticking with the most fundamental values of their religion. This often comes in the form of misogyny, warfare, genocide, anti-Semitism, child abuse, denial of rights, and many other atrocities.
Liberals and moderates are perpetuating the same book, with the same messages, with the same justification for evil, but they tend to ignore those parts. They'd rather make excuses than just admit their system is built upon barbarism, not once are they given permission to relax the laws, and it's better left in the past where it belongs rather than guiding 21st century policy and social relations.

I'd say it's more about the expression of the same tradition via the lens of modern understanding. But from previous discussions I think we'll have to agree to disagree on the desirability of the maintenance of Christianity and Islam in the 21st Century.

 

[lewisnotmiller]

If the argument is that secularism makes people less violent, then I don't really see how it is reasonable to limit this purely to 'the right type of secularism'. Otherwise what is being discussed is really a broader political and value system rather than simply secularism.

Yes, I think there is truth in this.
For me, it's frustrating to have communism or Nazism held up as examples of either secularism or atheism (in the case of communism) which can be associated with mass murder, etc. But it wouldn't be any more frustrating than for a Jain facing the Crusades as an example, so in terms of it being a mirror, and suggesting the discussion needs greater depth than a superficial nod to 'secularism = good and religion = bad' it appears to be 100% correct to me.

 

[LuisDantas]

Arguable I suppose, Christianity was no doubt a necessary factor in the Crusades. But I really don't see that link for Nazism.

Hitler studied to be a Catholic priest for a while. He adopted the swastika that adorned the catholic institution where he stayed for his party. He claimed to believe to have been spared for a higher purpose from the dangerous situations that he lived in the WW 1 war front. The SS beltlocks invoked God's name.

I just don't know what else you would want for evidence.