Terrywoodenpic
Oldest Heretic
Not all caterpillars get to be butterflies.
The reasons are manifold.
The reasons are manifold.
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Everybody wants to go to heaven. But nobody wants to go now.
- Thread starter Rex
- Start date
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Why not rush to it even though if it is a lot better than here?
If, on this life, you could do something that would completely ease your suffering and make you happy with no strings attached, wouldn't you go for it ( of course this would be too good to believe it to be true but disregard this )?
Some possible explanations come to my mind:
(1) Fear of death.
(2) Uncertainty on the existence of heavens.
(3) Uncertanity whether oneself will go to heavens.
(4) Heavens lack something that exists on this life.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
Even on that case, it is quite rare to see people looking forward to their deaths unless they are undergoing some major suffering.
You have the afterlife for an eternity but you only have this life for a short amount of time. Why would you rush? We're all going to die someday, so why should we speed up the process? I have things I still want to do and I do enjoy life even though it's very hard for me.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
You are saying this life is precious even compared to the afterlife on heavens.
This means this life is at least in one way better than heavens.
This means the heavens lack something compared to this life.
Oh, please. Don't try to make this into something it's not. I'm not suicidal (I've been in the past) and I have things to look forward to here. What the hell do you expect? That all people who believe some form of a positive afterlife are nutters who can't wait to die and try to speed up their deaths? Well, we're not. Even people who have near death experiences and say that it was lovely and that they didn't want to come back don't kill themselves. There's beauty and loveliness in this life. Why should I rush to leave it? God created this world and we should enjoy for however long we have. Death will come on its own time.
I really don't have anything more to say to you or on this topic in general. But I'm sure you'll find some way to twist it and make it negative because that's your MO in these discussions.
Koldo
Outstanding Member
I would honestly expect people who believe they are going to heavens to look forward to their deaths. Not necessarily to speed up the process or to commit suicide ( edit: as I have said, I can already imagine possible explanations as to why someone wouldn't want to do that sort of thing ). But rather to wait for it like children wait for their gifts on the christmas eve. I don't see that happening though, do you?
I have not made it negative in any way, as far as I am aware.
I think you're looking at it wrong. I believe we're all here for a reason. God created this world and He created it for us (all lifeforms, not just humans). It's not perfect, but it's still sacred. We all have a "job" to do here and to try and do our best. Not have the attitude of quitters and obsess over the afterlife. I guess I can understand that point of view, but hardly anyone seems to think that way. It's not that we necessarily have doubts about Heaven, it's just that everything has its place. Like I said, the afterlife is eternal but this life is so short. So why wish to speed it up? Eternity is long enough as it is.
Also, not everyone who believes in Heaven is so sure they're going there. I'm certainly not sure at all. Catholicism doesn't teach that salvation is assured. It's a process and a journey.
Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
But that's really the problem, it tends to be the people who are most terrified of death who hold the strongest belief in an afterlife, specifically to allay that terror. These are people who, if their faith is to be believed, should want to die and get to heaven, yet they are the ones who fight the hardest to stay alive for as long as possible at all costs. That seems to be a rather irrational position to be in, doesn't it? Certainly there are some fanatics who are only too happy to die for their religion, but there's a reason Augustine (if I remember right) declared suicide to be a mortal sin, there were too many early Christians offing themselves to be with Jesus and it was getting in the way of church donations, power and membership.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Yeah. That's probably the explanation. Most people aren't that 100% sure about heaven, but they have strong hopes that it is true. The risk analysis a person would make would be "I'm alive right now 100%, but I'm on 99% sure about heaven, so staying alive is the better option."
That's the thing though. When I was Christian, I couldn't understand why I was still afraid of dying when I had the hopes of going to Heaven. I prayed and asked God to give me confidence that I would go to Heaven (not having done the "unforgivable sin" etc), but it never came.
Ouroboros
Coincidentia oppositorum
Not in the Bible though. Like Cephus pointed out, many early Christians were willing to kill themselves to go to heaven faster, until it was declared a sin. Jesus never said anything about it. Perhaps he didn't realize the consequences of his new religion?
nazz
Doubting Thomas
Nonsense. Plenty of people who don't believe in an afterlife are terrified of dying.
Indeed. Hence, transhumanism, much of which is founded on an extreme fear of death. I remember reading an article about a scientist who is working on how mind uploading can work and his fear of death that was strongly expressed in the interview was pretty sad.
Nada
#
I do not want to go to heaven either.I want to live on earth in paradise forever.People think that their loved ones are there waiting for them.This is a misconception based on man made beliefs that have no biblical backing.Heaven is where God's government is.It is reserved for those who will reign with Jesus Christ.Only those blessed with God's holy spirit have the heavenly calling.All others who do as God commands will reside on earth forever.As intended from the beginning.
Isaiah 45:18 "For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other."
Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
Isaiah 45:18 "For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other."
Isaiah 45:18 For this is what the LORD says-- he who created the heavens, he is God; he who fashioned and made the earth, he founded it; he did not create it to be empty, but formed it to be inhabited-- he says: "I am the LORD, and there is no other.
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Cephus
Relentlessly Rational
Indeed they are. Many of them have come up with different means of pretending to get around it too that just doesn't have anything to do with religion. Just because everyone who is terrified by death doesn't turn to religion doesn't mean that many of the people who do turn to religion don't fall into that category.
nazz
Doubting Thomas
It is certainly true that many people are afraid to die and many people are religious. But that is not what you originally claimed:
On what are you basing that statement?
People embrace religion for many reasons