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Evidence for “a god” at John 10:33

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Onoma

Active Member
In the Bible's day, a priest-king ( What Jesus is and was ) served as the mediator between God / the gods and mankind

When that priest himself was deified, ( common in literature ) he was also considered a god ( on earth )

There are plenty of deified priest-kings throughout history, none of them claimed to be the head God of the pantheon, they claimed to be a god that served under them

In other words, a deified priest-king like Naram-Sin was a " god " who served as the mediator between Sin ( God ) and mankind

But if the debate rages around " god " VS " God " and capital letters....well, the exact same Hebrew is used to refer to both

" gods " - אלה - 'elahh

" God " - אלה - 'elahh

" / gods / God " אלה - 'elahh is from: אלוה - 'elowahh " God " which derives from: אל 'el " God "

 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
“Professionals”?
How about highly-acclaimed scholar and Catholic priest
John L. McKenzie, S.J.? In his Dictionary of the Bible, he writes: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type and italics are mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317.

And these translators.....

1808
““and the word was a god””
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.


2001 Translation: An American English Bible
Online @ 2001 Translation an American English Bible
In the Bible's day, a priest-king ( What Jesus is and was ) served as the mediator between God / the gods and mankind

When that priest himself was deified, ( common in literature ) he was also considered a god ( on earth )

There are plenty of deified priest-kings throughout history, none of them claimed to be the head God of the pantheon, they claimed to be a god that served under them

In other words, a deified priest-king like Naram-Sin was a " god " who served as the mediator between Sin ( God ) and mankind

But if the debate rages around " god " VS " God " and capital letters....well, the exact same Hebrew is used to refer to both

" gods " - אלה - 'elahh

" God " - אלה - 'elahh

" / gods / God " אלה - 'elahh is from: אלוה - 'elowahh " God " which derives from: אל 'el " God "
Onoma It is good to meet you.... I reply: The debate was settled by "Church Council"! Arius was a Catholic he was AMONG Christians! Arius the former Christian was removed as a False Teacher! Just as scripture prophesy foretold!
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute
.

Arius the false teacher was removed from AMONG Christians as a Heretic! Arius taught "Jesus was not God"! Verse #2 proves The Christian Church MUST be "The Way of Truth" (verse #2 above) It also proves all who reject Jesus is God must be "Outside of truth"!
Onoma This is Scripture Prophesy.... Clearly Christians could not be AMONG Arius the prophesy can only work in one direction "Arius was AMONG Christians!" To say differently you MUST reject the scriptures!

Jesus promised to be ALWAYS with his Holy Catholic Church! ALWAYS WITH means he never left the Christians he formed from the start! This also means to say; "Jesus left and the Church" means Jesus lied!
Onoma Do you believe the scriptures? Historical FACT: The JWs added the letter "A" they took the large G and made it a small g in John 1! ALL scripture schoolers prove the NWT and the JWs wrong! ALL translate .... John 1 this way In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. No exceptions not one translate it as the NWT!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
“Professionals”?
How about highly-acclaimed scholar and Catholic priest
John L. McKenzie, S.J.? In his Dictionary of the Bible, he writes: “Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated ‘the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being.’”—(Brackets are his. Bold type and italics are mine. Published with nihil obstat and imprimatur.) (New York, 1965), p. 317.

And these translators.....



1808
““and the word was a god””
The New Testament, in An Improved Version, Upon the Basis of Archbishop Newcome’s New Translation: With a Corrected Text, London.

1864
““and a god was the Word””
The Emphatic Diaglott (J21, interlinear reading), by Benjamin Wilson, New York and London.

1935
““and the Word was divine””
The Bible—An American Translation, by J. M. P. Smith and E. J. Goodspeed, Chicago.

1950
““and the Word was a god””
New World Translation of the Christian Greek Scriptures, Brooklyn.

1975
““and a god (or, of a divine kind) was the Word””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Siegfried Schulz, Göttingen, Germany.

1978
““and godlike sort was the Logos””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Johannes Schneider, Berlin.

1979
““and a god was the Logos””
Das Evangelium nach Johannes, by Jürgen Becker, Würzburg, Germany.

2001
“and the Word was a powerful one.”
2001 Translation: An American English Bible
Online @ 2001 Translation an American English Bible

"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . 'the word was a divine being.'" "Dictionary of the Bible", by John L. McKenzie, 1965, p. 317, as quoted in, Should you believe the Trinity?, Watchtower publication)

What they left out to deceive you:
In the words of Jesus and in much of the rest of the NT the God of Israel (Gk. ho theos) is the Father* of Jesus Christ. It is for this reason that the title ho theos, which now designates the Father as a personal reality, is not applied in the NT to Jesus Himself; Jesus is the Son of God (of ho theos). This is a matter of usage and not of rule, and the noun [Gk. ho theos] is applied to Jesus a few times. "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated "the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being." Thomas invokes Jesus with the titles which belong to the *Father, "My Lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). "The glory of our great God and Savior" which is to appear can be the glory of no other than Jesus (Tt 2:13)" (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, God, p317)

Hockeycowboy the WTS left out the rest of what John L. McKenzie, S.J. said!!! They take one sentence out of CONTEXT!
Clearly you have been deceived by the WTS!
John L. McKenzie, S.J.
said...
  • "Trinity. The trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature" which are Gk philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as "essence" and "substance" were erroneously applied to God by some theologians. ... Without an explicit formula the NT leaves no room to think that Jesus is Himself an object of the adoption which He communicates to others. He knows the Father and reveals Him. He therefore belongs to the divine level of being; and there is no question at all about the Spirit belonging to the divine level of being. What is less clear about the Spirit is His personal reality; often He is mentioned in language in which His personal reality is not explicit. (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
    • The NT does not approach the metaphysical problem of subordination, as it approaches no metaphysical problem. It offers no room for a statement of the relations of Father, Son, and Spirit which would imply that one of them is more or less properly on the divine level of being than another. (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
  • The OT does not contain suggestions or foreshadowing of the trinity of persons. What it does contain are the words which the NT employs to express the trinity of persons such as Father, Son, Word, Spirit, etc. A study of these words shows us how the revelation of God in the NT advances beyond the revelation of God in the OT. The same study of these words and their background is the best way to arrive at an understanding of the distinction of persons as it is stated in the NT." (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
Have a good day.. Hope you can sleep tonight!
 

Onoma

Active Member
Onoma It is good to meet you.... I reply: The debate was settled by "Church Council"! Arius was a Catholic he was AMONG Christians! Arius the former Christian was removed as a False Teacher! Just as scripture prophesy foretold!
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute
.

Arius the false teacher was removed from AMONG Christians as a Heretic! Arius taught "Jesus was not God"! Verse #2 proves The Christian Church MUST be "The Way of Truth" (verse #2 above) It also proves all who reject Jesus is God must be "Outside of truth"!
Onoma This is Scripture Prophesy.... Clearly Christians could not be AMONG Arius the prophesy can only work in one direction "Arius was AMONG Christians!" To say differently you MUST reject the scriptures!

Jesus promised to be ALWAYS with his Holy Catholic Church! ALWAYS WITH means he never left the Christians he formed from the start! This also means to say; "Jesus left and the Church" means Jesus lied!
Onoma Do you believe the scriptures? Historical FACT: The JWs added the letter "A" they took the large G and made it a small g in John 1! ALL scripture schoolers prove the NWT and the JWs wrong! ALL translate .... John 1 this way In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. No exceptions not one translate it as the NWT!

mmmm, anyway, my point is that all these modern day Bible experts don't seem to actually know the historical foundations of the Bible

-___-
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
mmmm, anyway, my point is that all these modern day Bible experts don't seem to actually know the historical foundations of the Bible

-___-
Onoma I reply.... Christians have always taught "Jesus is God"! The Church Council kicking the False teacher Arius out from AMONG Christians is a vey good example!
As far as the bible goes.... It did not fall out of the sky... There were many phony manuscripts kicking around at first.. NO ONE....
No one knew what was inspired and what was not inspired scriptures!!! The Christian Church the one holy Catholic Apostolic Church sorted it out, she alone decided the true books from the many phony ones! THEN....
Onoma
Then the Holy Catholic church put them all into one book she named "The Bible"!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Hi @Clear, @Dogknox20 , @tigger2 ,@Hockeycowboy

I want to thank @Clear for bring up the issue of historical context as I believe this sways the translation properly towards "God" rather than "a god".
The event discussed occurs in the 1st century of the common era when Israel was no more than a vassal or client state of Rome.
As I see it, a mob attempting to stone someone for "making themselves 'a god'" would not only have garnered the attention of the Jewish client-state authorities, but of their Roman occupiers as well. Let's remember, Rome at this time is pagan, and the law of land. Roman emperors often saw themselves as "gods" and many in Rome considered them deity.
Stoning somebody for making themselves "a god" would have sent a rather powerful political message to Rome (look what we do to "gods" around here). It's not something Pilate would have ignored and it's something the Sanhedrin would have wanted to sweep under the rug. In fact, had the crowd been able to seize Jesus at that time I see little chance of his case ever being referred to Pilate by the Sanhedrin, lest the Prefect hear that Jesus was nearly stoned for simply making himself "a god".
Thus "making yourself 'God'" sound much more likely than "making yourself 'a god'" and this without considering the effects of Greek Hellenization.
But there is more, stronger evidence for 'God' in the scripture itself.

_________________________________
Scripture explicitly tells us why the Jews picked up stones:
"The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy;..."
In Leviticus 24:16 the punishment for blasphemy is death. In Jewish law the only form of blasphemy which is punishable by death is blaspheming the name of the Lord. (source)
Blaspheming anyone or anything else, like "a god" was never considered blasphemy by the Jews. In other words, you could claim you were Baal or "a god" all you want and you would not be stoned (although asking people to follow Baal would get you stoned, just not for blasphemy). As the Jewish Encyclopedia states:

BLASPHEMY:
Evil or profane speaking of God. The essence of the crime consists in the impious purpose in using the words, and does not necessarily include the performance of any desecrating act.
The text of the law in Leviticus provides that the stranger, as well as the native born, is liable to punishment for blasphemy. Talmudic tradition states that blasphemy was one of the seven crimes prohibited to the Noahides (Sanh. 56a), i.e., according to natural law. Although, according to Jewish law, a Jew who blasphemed a heathen deity was not guilty of the crime of blasphemy, Josephus ("Ant." iv. 8, § 10, after Philo, "Vita Mosis," 26; ed. Mangey, ii. 166) to the contrary notwithstanding, yet a heathen might be guilty if he blasphemed the name of the Lord (Baraita Sanh. 56a).​
The only way I can see the Temple crowd stoning Jesus for the blasphemy of making himself "a god" in pagan occupied Israel is if the Jews thought the Father was also "a god". That would certainly tick off the crowd that a desecration of the Divine Name had taken place. Yet I don't see anyone here arguing the Father is "a god"...an argument pretty much necessary if we are to believe a stoning for blasphemy was about to take place.
As such, John 10:33 has been properly translated "God".
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Oeste good to meet you... I reply good post.... Well thought out, it makes sense; Stoning for "a god" would send the Romans a bad message they the Romans believed in many gods! But to stone for claiming to be "THE ONE God" would be too much for the Jews they believe in only ONE GOD and a god would not bother them!

Also in Luke 1 Mary visits Elizabeth the greeting Elizabeth gives Mary is 43 But why am I so favored, that the mother of my Lord should come to me?
Jews believe in ONE and ONLY ONE God!!! Elizabeth is a Good Jew her husband is a high Priest never would Elizabeth say "Mother of my God" it it was not to be singular! My LORD = My God!
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
"Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated . . . 'the word was a divine being.'" "Dictionary of the Bible", by John L. McKenzie, 1965, p. 317, as quoted in, Should you believe the Trinity?, Watchtower publication)

What they left out to deceive you:
In the words of Jesus and in much of the rest of the NT the God of Israel (Gk. ho theos) is the Father* of Jesus Christ. It is for this reason that the title ho theos, which now designates the Father as a personal reality, is not applied in the NT to Jesus Himself; Jesus is the Son of God (of ho theos). This is a matter of usage and not of rule, and the noun [Gk. ho theos] is applied to Jesus a few times. "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated "the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being." Thomas invokes Jesus with the titles which belong to the *Father, "My Lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). "The glory of our great God and Savior" which is to appear can be the glory of no other than Jesus (Tt 2:13)" (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, God, p317)

Hockeycowboy the WTS left out the rest of what John L. McKenzie, S.J. said!!! They take one sentence out of CONTEXT!
Clearly you have been deceived by the WTS!
John L. McKenzie, S.J.
said...
  • "Trinity. The trinity of God is defined by the Church as the belief that in God are three persons who subsist in one nature. The belief as so defined was reached only in the 4th and 5th centuries AD and hence is not explicitly and formally a biblical belief. The trinity of persons within the unity of nature is defined in terms of "person" and "nature" which are Gk philosophical terms; actually the terms do not appear in the Bible. The trinitarian definitions arose as the result of long controversies in which these terms and others such as "essence" and "substance" were erroneously applied to God by some theologians. ... Without an explicit formula the NT leaves no room to think that Jesus is Himself an object of the adoption which He communicates to others. He knows the Father and reveals Him. He therefore belongs to the divine level of being; and there is no question at all about the Spirit belonging to the divine level of being. What is less clear about the Spirit is His personal reality; often He is mentioned in language in which His personal reality is not explicit. (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
    • The NT does not approach the metaphysical problem of subordination, as it approaches no metaphysical problem. It offers no room for a statement of the relations of Father, Son, and Spirit which would imply that one of them is more or less properly on the divine level of being than another. (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
  • The OT does not contain suggestions or foreshadowing of the trinity of persons. What it does contain are the words which the NT employs to express the trinity of persons such as Father, Son, Word, Spirit, etc. A study of these words shows us how the revelation of God in the NT advances beyond the revelation of God in the OT. The same study of these words and their background is the best way to arrive at an understanding of the distinction of persons as it is stated in the NT." (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, Trinity, p899)
Have a good day.. Hope you can sleep tonight!
Yes, I’m well aware of McKenzie’s views. It doesn’t alter what he said about John 1:1. Does it? “...and the word was a divine being.”

He said it, not me.

Angels are also divine beings, as they are “from God.”
 

Oeste

Well-Known Member
Oeste good to meet you... I reply good post.... Well thought out, it makes sense; Stoning for "a god" would send the Romans a bad message they the Romans believed in many gods! But to stone for claiming to be "THE ONE God" would be too much for the Jews they believe in only ONE GOD and a god would not bother them!

Exactly right Dogknox20!

Stoning for simply making yourself "a god" would certainly get the attention of the Romans since even Caesar was considered "a god" by the ruling populace, but stoning for making yourself a particular tribal Deity (Jehovah) would be seen as an issue for local authorities.

The idea of "a god" at John 10:31-33 becomes even more incredulous when we realize these Temple Jews are stoning for blasphemy, and blasphemy only occurs when you defame the Divine Name. Making yourself "a god" or mighty person just doesn't cut it. In fact it pulls the rug right out from our truth seeking "a god" friends.

There is of course an "a god" solution that actually jells with the charge of blasphemy.

We could say that by making yourself "a god" you are in fact defaming the Divine Name. That would harmonize scripture. But that would require the Jews to believe the Father is simply "a god" as well, an argument untenable to Arians, Unitarians, Witnesses, Sabellianists ,Trinitarians. and Jews alike, but one I suspect would be strongly endorsed by the Mormon community.

And there's the rub. It's not sufficient to simply attack your opponent's position. You must advance a strategy that allows you to hold and defend your own position as well. In this the historic, traditional church has and still does remarkably well.

But from our Arian/Witness protagonists I see nothing but a jump from proof-text to proof-text. Already they appear content to abandon John 10:33 in favor of John 1:1c even though they clearly staked out John 10:33 in the OP!

From my perspective it makes little sense for Arians/Witnesses to sail across the sea to attack a Trinitarian position, only to hear the cheers of Mormons as their own fortress is set ablaze in the background.

As such, I would just like them to defend their opening gambit, and explain how and why the Jews believed "making yourself 'a god'" was a blasphemy of the Divine Name punishable by stoning.
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Yes, I’m well aware of McKenzie’s views. It doesn’t alter what he said about John 1:1. Does it? “...and the word was a divine being.”

He said it, not me.
Angels are also divine beings, as they are “from God.”

Hockeycowboy as I pointed out the quote of McKenzie was taken out of context by the Watch Tower If you don't look into it you would be caught in the lie of the JWs! If you read it in CONTEXT you would see he (McKenzie) believes John 1 is saying Jesus is God!
.........is applied to Jesus a few times. "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated "the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being." Thomas invokes Jesus with the titles which belong to the *Father, "My Lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). "The glory of our great God and Savior" which is to appear can be the glory of no other than Jesus (Tt 2:13)" (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, God, p317) .........

Yes Angels are from God but they are not divine they are NOT God! Angels were created; God always was always will be, God created Angels!
..........................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
divine
1 of or relating to a god, especially the Supreme Being.
2 addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3 proceeding from God or a god: divine laws; divine guidance.
4 godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5 heavenly; celestial :the divine kingdom.
6 extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7 being a god; being God: Zeus, Hera, and other divine beings in Greek mythology.
.........................................................
Angels are servants of God!
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Sir, you have just supported my argument:
DICTIONARY DOT COM
divine
1 of or relating to a god, especially the Supreme Being.
2 addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3 proceeding from God or a god: divine laws; divine guidance.
4 godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5 heavenly; celestial :the divine kingdom.

Exactly!
Look at the examples given..."the divine kingdom"; "divine laws"; etc.

Divine means "OF the Supreme Being." It means "PROCEEDING FROM God".

This would include angels, the Earth, and certainly Jesus.
The Mosaic Law would even be included.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Hockeycowboy as I pointed out the quote of McKenzie was taken out of context by the Watch Tower If you don't look into it you would be caught in the lie of the JWs! If you read it in CONTEXT you would see he (McKenzie) believes John 1 is saying Jesus is God!
.........is applied to Jesus a few times. "Jn 1:1 should rigorously be translated "the word was with the God [= the Father], and the word was a divine being." Thomas invokes Jesus with the titles which belong to the *Father, "My Lord and my God" (Jn 20:28). "The glory of our great God and Savior" which is to appear can be the glory of no other than Jesus (Tt 2:13)" (Dictionary of the Bible, John L. McKenzie, God, p317) .........

Yes Angels are from God but they are not divine they are NOT God! Angels were created; God always was always will be, God created Angels!
..........................................................
DICTIONARY DOT COM
divine
1 of or relating to a god, especially the Supreme Being.
2 addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred: divine worship.
3 proceeding from God or a god: divine laws; divine guidance.
4 godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity: divine magnanimity.
5 heavenly; celestial :the divine kingdom.
6 extremely good; unusually lovely: He has the most divine tenor voice.
7 being a god; being God: Zeus, Hera, and other divine beings in Greek mythology.
.........................................................
Angels are servants of God!
Matthew 4:11 Then the devil left him, and angels came and attended him.
Actually, McKenzie's comment wasn't taken out of context. That he also said in exactitude that "the word was with THE God," shows that he understood the Greek, however later interpolated some of his own proposals for the trinity. That Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and My God" to the resurrected Jesus and Jesus did not correct him does not mean that Jesus believed, knew, or thought he was (is) "the God." He knew he was not. Jesus has been given power and authority. That does not mean he is, or equates himself with the Father. So for Thomas to call him his Lord and his God and for Jesus not to correct him on that matter means that Jesus knew his elevated position as the one given power and authority by his Father, until all has been accomplished according to God, his Father's, will. Jesus did pray, "Let YOUR will be done." And Jesus is accomplishing that will.
 

Muffled

Jesus in me
So Jesus, who you say is fully human and fully God at the same time, and was equal to the other two godpersons, but are you saying each of them had needs and so prayed to themselves or another godperson? And were all three fully human and fully God at the same time? Does that make sense to you? Just wondering, and hope you're having a really good day.

I believe God is one. He has needs in the three persons.

I believe God only needs to pray. He is always present so it isn't like He has to communicate.

I believe None of the three persons are. Jesus is human enough to be recognized by the apostles as human and God enough to be recognized as God. The Father is possibly human in image but not physically but is God enough. The Paraclete is fully human and God enough.

I believe everything God says through me makes sense to me.

A tree fell on my house last night and another trunk is ready to fall on it. It looks like just cosmetic damage though so far.

 

Muffled

Jesus in me
I interpret that comment to mean that it doesn't matter to you that Jesus is not spelled Lord or God in the Hebrew or Greek texts, and so when Lord or God is written in the Bible, you might as well say Jesus. Am I right about this? Or, of course, the trinity instead of Lord and God. After all, why not? Just wondering. But it has been pleasant speaking with you.

I believe you don't have it right. Jesus is spelled differently in Hebrew and Greek and probably Araamic which is mot likely what Matthew Mark and John were written as originally. A name is not the same as a title. Lord and God are titles and the words are different in different languages.

Hopefully I am not as confusing as some gurus I have read.
 

TrueBeliever37

Well-Known Member
Ibelieve it would more likely have been "My Adonai and my El." God is a title not a name.

Of course God is a title. Thomas was saying he was his YHWH and his God (using Aramaic or Hebrew words). YHWH is the name. Adonai was a title they substituted for God's name. And El or Elohim are Hebrew words that get translated into our language as God
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
Actually, McKenzie's comment wasn't taken out of context. That he also said in exactitude that "the word was with THE God," shows that he understood the Greek, however later interpolated some of his own proposals for the trinity. That Thomas exclaimed "My Lord and My God" to the resurrected Jesus and Jesus did not correct him does not mean that Jesus believed, knew, or thought he was (is) "the God." He knew he was not. Jesus has been given power and authority. That does not mean he is, or equates himself with the Father. So for Thomas to call him his Lord and his God and for Jesus not to correct him on that matter means that Jesus knew his elevated position as the one given power and authority by his Father, until all has been accomplished according to God, his Father's, will. Jesus did pray, "Let YOUR will be done." And Jesus is accomplishing that will.
YoursTrue God is love.. PERFECT Love! No one can love themselves if they did it would not be love but "Selfishness"! Love needs another to be perfect!
THINK: God could not be perfect love if he was ONE and only one! God needs another to be God - Love needs a second person to love! Example The second there was God there had to be another to love... If the other was not present a millisecond after the father then God would not be perfect he would not be God!
You claim Jesus is NOT God. So did the Heretic Arius he was removed from among Christians because of his false teachings! John 1 is very clear "God became flesh and dwelt among man!" To believe different you have to alter and corrupt the scriptures just as the JWs had to do!
Immanuel was a prophesy from the Old Testament fulfilled by the birth of Jesus! FACT: Christians have always believed and taught "Jesus is God" to say different is to be Pagan a person outside of God' family! "Listen to the Church or be treated as Pagan" Arius was condemned as Pagan!
 

Dogknox20

Well-Known Member
[QUOTE="YoursTrue, .[/QUOTE]
I add...
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.” Jesus (the Word before his Incarnation) is revealed to be “God” and the Creator of all things that were created.
&
Genesis 1:1 tells us, “In the beginning God created . . .”
YoursTrue The conclusion can only be: Jesus is God!

Jesus our GREAT GOD!
Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

AMP awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
AMPC Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One)
CJB while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah.
ERV We should live like that while we are waiting for the coming of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. He is our great hope, and he will come with glory.
ICB We should live like that while we are waiting for the coming of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. He is our great hope, and he will come with glory.
NOG At the same time we can expect what we hope for—the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Yeshua Christ.
NIRV That’s how we should live as we wait for the blessed hope God has given us. We are waiting for Jesus Christ to appear in his glory. He is our great God and Savior.
TPT For we continue to look forward to the joyful fulfillment of our hope in the dawning splendor of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus, the Anointed One.

YoursTrue question Who sent the Angels? (verse below)
Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.
Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.
Jesus is clearly “the Lord God of the spirits of the prophets!”

Jesus refer to himself as “I am” four times in John’s Gospel (see John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6), but when he does so in John 8:58, the Jews to whom he was speaking understood his meaning because they immediately wanted to stone him for blasphemy!

Revelation 21:6-7, Almighty God reveals himself to us in plain terms: “And he said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.’”

Revelation 22:6, 13, 16, Jesus revealing himself to be “the Alpha and the Omega . . . the beginning and the end”:
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I believe God is one. He has needs in the three persons.

I believe God only needs to pray. He is always present so it isn't like He has to communicate.

I believe None of the three persons are. Jesus is human enough to be recognized by the apostles as human and God enough to be recognized as God. The Father is possibly human in image but not physically but is God enough. The Paraclete is fully human and God enough.

I believe everything God says through me makes sense to me.

A tree fell on my house last night and another trunk is ready to fall on it. It looks like just cosmetic damage though so far.
Sorry about the tree falling on your house. Hope it can be repaired quickly. I would hope that what you say about God makes sense to you, otherwise it would kind of be like talking in tongues and the speaker doesn't know what he's saying.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
[QUOTE="YoursTrue, .
I add...
John 1
In the beginning was the Word, the Word was with God, and the Word was God . . . All things were made by him: and without him was made nothing that was made.” Jesus (the Word before his Incarnation) is revealed to be “God” and the Creator of all things that were created.
&
Genesis 1:1 tells us, “In the beginning God created . . .”
YoursTrue The conclusion can only be: Jesus is God!

Jesus our GREAT GOD!
Titus 2:13 while we wait for the blessed hope—the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ,

AMP awaiting and confidently expecting the [fulfillment of our] blessed hope and the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus,
AMPC Awaiting and looking for the [fulfillment, the realization of our] blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior Christ Jesus (the Messiah, the Anointed One)
CJB while continuing to expect the blessed fulfillment of our certain hope, which is the appearing of the Sh’khinah of our great God and the appearing of our Deliverer, Yeshua the Messiah.
ERV We should live like that while we are waiting for the coming of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. He is our great hope, and he will come with glory.
ICB We should live like that while we are waiting for the coming of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ. He is our great hope, and he will come with glory.
NOG At the same time we can expect what we hope for—the appearance of the glory of our great God and Savior, Yeshua Christ.
NIRV That’s how we should live as we wait for the blessed hope God has given us. We are waiting for Jesus Christ to appear in his glory. He is our great God and Savior.
TPT For we continue to look forward to the joyful fulfillment of our hope in the dawning splendor of the glory of our great God and Savior, Jesus, the Anointed One.

YoursTrue question Who sent the Angels? (verse below)
Revelation 22:6 The angel said to me, “These words are trustworthy and true. The Lord, the God who inspires the prophets, sent his angel to show his servants the things that must soon take place.
Revelation 22:16 I, Jesus, have sent my angel to give you this testimony for the churches. I am the Root and the Offspring of David, and the bright Morning Star.
Jesus is clearly “the Lord God of the spirits of the prophets!”

Jesus refer to himself as “I am” four times in John’s Gospel (see John 8:24; 58; 13:19 and 18:5-6), but when he does so in John 8:58, the Jews to whom he was speaking understood his meaning because they immediately wanted to stone him for blasphemy!

Revelation 21:6-7, Almighty God reveals himself to us in plain terms: “And he said to me, ‘It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.’”

Revelation 22:6, 13, 16, Jesus revealing himself to be “the Alpha and the Omega . . . the beginning and the end”:[/QUOTE]
Pardon me, but I'm not a big one on analyzing many different scriptures at one time, I usually take one point at a time. So I hope you can follow and consider the difference of translations here:

The King James Bible for Titus 2:13 says:
Looking for that blessed hope, and the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ.
American Standard Version has a different take on it:
"looking for the blessed hope and appearing of the glory of the great God and our Saviour Jesus Christ;"
All things considered, God AND Jesus are mentioned. That's for starters. And King James Bible says "glorious appearing," while ASV says "appearing of the GLORY of the great God AND our Saviour..." Why do you think those ideas in translations differ?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Onoma It is good to meet you.... I reply: The debate was settled by "Church Council"! Arius was a Catholic he was AMONG Christians! Arius the former Christian was removed as a False Teacher! Just as scripture prophesy foretold!
2 Peter 2:1 But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them—bringing swift destruction on themselves.
2 Many will follow their depraved conduct and will bring the way of truth into disrepute
.

Arius the false teacher was removed from AMONG Christians as a Heretic! Arius taught "Jesus was not God"! Verse #2 proves The Christian Church MUST be "The Way of Truth" (verse #2 above) It also proves all who reject Jesus is God must be "Outside of truth"!
Onoma This is Scripture Prophesy.... Clearly Christians could not be AMONG Arius the prophesy can only work in one direction "Arius was AMONG Christians!" To say differently you MUST reject the scriptures!

Jesus promised to be ALWAYS with his Holy Catholic Church! ALWAYS WITH means he never left the Christians he formed from the start! This also means to say; "Jesus left and the Church" means Jesus lied!
Onoma Do you believe the scriptures? Historical FACT: The JWs added the letter "A" they took the large G and made it a small g in John 1! ALL scripture schoolers prove the NWT and the JWs wrong! ALL translate .... John 1 this way In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. No exceptions not one translate it as the NWT!
Being that you seem to know so much about Arius, I would like to ask you this question about Arius's viewpoint towards Jesus. Do you know if Arius thought or believed that Jesus was the Son of God, and if he thought he had been in heaven before he came to the earth, and went back to heaven again? (Thanks.)
 
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