• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evidence for a god existing or not existing

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
And what false accusation is it you claim that I have made?

The crack about sermons.

again with avoiding the questions by complaining about her....

No, I gave a specific example. One has to apply this in a case by case method. Bring up a prophecy and we can discuss it. Though I doubt if you will be able to bring up a Bahai' one. I can explain to you why the Tyre prophecy fails spectacularly. As does Jesus's promise to return some time during the lives of the disciples. Those verses have had to be reinterpreted many times. Then there are "prophecies" in the Bible that are not prophecies at all. They were written after the event but written as if they were prophecy. Some of the "prophecies" of Daniel were that sort. There is even a term for that sort of writing in the Bible, but my poor brain cannot remember it right now.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
The claim is not the evidence. The evidence supports the claims. The argument is not circular because it I am not beginning with what I am trying to end with.
Of course you are. You have two concepts, and you are switching the concepts to provide two different "arguments". One is that "God exists and it sends messengers" and the other is "Messengers from God exist so that proves God". Neither of these are arguments, they are claims. The concepts supposedly prove the other, this is why it's circular.

In other words, I did not assume in the beginning that Baha’u’llah was who he claimed to be and try to end with Baha’u’llah, without looking at the evidence.
As you have admitted your decision that all this is valid to anyone is for personal reasons, not because it's factual and objectively true, so I'm not sure why you keep talking about evidence.

If you are going to claim all this is objectively true and everyone should accept it as true because it's rational, then you would have a good reason to continue presenting your case. Plus you know we non-believers have a high (scientific/legal) standard of fact and evidence.

In order to determine if Baha’u’llah was telling the truth we have to look at His own Self which means who He was and what His character was like. Before voting for a presidential candidate, shouldn’t we look at his character? We can see the disaster that ensued when people voted for Trump without looking at his character.

In order to determine if Baha’u’llah did what He claimed to have done we have to look at His Revelation, which means what He accomplished during His Mission on earth. We would do the same thing if we wanted to know if a presidential candidate did all the things he claimed to have done during his or her campaign.

Obviously, what Baha’u’llah wrote does not prove that what He wrote is true, .....
Ah, there's your concession. So you're saying he's not a messenger from God. Isn't what messengers say true BECAUSE they are messengers from God?


...but in order to determine what Baha’u’llah claimed we have to read His Writings. What He claimed in His Writings is not proof of His claim but what He actually wrote is part of the proof. We have to read the Writings to determine what He taught and assess its value and usefulness, as well as whether we can believe it is worthy of having been revealed by God.

In order to determine if Baha’u’llah was the Messiah and the return of Christ, we have to read the Bible prophecies, and then we have to read the history of the Baha’i Faith in order to determine what Baha’u’llah actually did that fulfilled those prophecies.

The predictions that Baha'u'llah made that later came to pass are further supporting evidence, and they show that he had knowledge of the future, although as a standalone they do not prove that He was a Messenger of God.
So you're admitting that a person has to put together a bunch of ideas and then decide if it's true. It's dangerous to pin any credibility on Bible prophesy since those are very vague and often disputed.
 

the light

New Member
After reading a bunch of post this past week, I've decided to create this thread and list all the evidence I found for a god existing and all the evidence for a god not existing.

For a god existing the evidence is...

For a god not existing the evidence is...


There you have it. Look all the evidence over. Compare all the evidence, debate it and see what you come up with. No need to thank me. Its all in a weeks work



if you can see light then you can see god, we have the proof
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
Who says?



As long as there's a working material brain. Where is this brain in a God?


But it's fallible humans attributing these qualities to a God not known to exist. How do you test that these are actual attributes of a God that exists?


So flesh eating bacteria and genetic diseases must have been created by God.



OK, produce the God and show us it has a brain. Then prove it created anything.


What exists in nature can be explained as elements behaving according to the laws of physics.


You're still just assuming a God is behind nature without providing any actual necessity for a divine force.

Logic, math, physics, etc., say so. We have the basic languages of reality. Therefore we have a basis for determining that which can not be readily produced or reproduced.
Man has managed to reverse-engineer the entire universe from one tiny planet within a relatively insignificant time frame -while being unable to actually produce or reproduce its history.
However, those of a mind to do so have generally not been interested in proving the existence of God, as many commonly-held beliefs about God were very quickly shown to be false (young earth and similar ideas).
Add to that the extreme troubles historically associated with religion, and it is understandable that the mere mention of God is unpleasant and wearisome.

Yet... none of that really has anything to do with whether or not a creative intelligence was involved with the initiation of the universe.
Focus has been on that event -and the apparent lack of need of a creative intelligence from that point -rather than what must have preceded it, caused it, etc.
If "In the beginning was simplicity" -that is in no way descriptive of the singularity which became our universe.

We have not focused on how PRE-UNIVERSE simplicity could have become/produced a singularity which essentially packaged all information necessary to cause the universe specifically -and all it would THEN inevitably become absent of creative input.

All possible things are first generally possible -then made specifically possible by continued development -each step making others possible.

The mind of such a creative intelligence can be shown to be necessary by that which has been produced -by determining what was necessary between simplicity an that which was produced -which is indeed indicative of a creative intelligence.
All things point back to that brain just as certainly as all PRESENT physics point back not only to the singularity and big bang, but also to PRE-PHYSICS "PHYSICS" -or those previous things which were transformed into present physics (the atoms are made of things which once were not arranged as such, etc).

Present nature can't produce an Antikythera mechanism specifically -and pre-universe physics could not have produced present physics specifically -without a creative intelligence capable of understanding, modelling, altering reality in memory and then purposefully applying those changes ...is the general idea. Add to that the specific nature of the universe which is indicative of the nature of that intelligence -just as the Antikythera mechanism is indicative of the nature of its creator. The universe has a very specific purpose. It has produced a vast and rich environment by first causing complicated interactive building blocks which produced presently-innumerable worlds within the greater environment -upon which -and from the same interactive building blocks -innumerable and infinitely-varied life forms can develop, adapt, survive, increase in ability and mastery of environment, experience the qualia produced by various arrangements of those building blocks, learn to understand those building blocks to the point of manipulating them to create intended future states of both environment and self.
One can know a brain exists/existed by considering the mechanism in question. That is true even if said brain no longer exists as such -and can not be produced!

A MATERIAL brain is indeed necessary -but such does not require the PRESENT state of matter. In fact, a pre-present-material brain was necessary to produce present material from previous material -based not only on presently-apparent extreme purposeful complexity and specificity, but the fact that specific systems must be in place (processing, modelling, memory, etc) which are able to transform that which naturally develops into that which does not and can not otherwise naturally develop!

PRE-PHYSICS "PHYSICS" / laws would have produced what they naturally did -until they produced the capability of producing the otherwise-impossible -which is by way of a brain produced step-by-step which is then capable of awareness, self-awareness, decision -self-determination. It is a necessary and perfectly natural intermediate stage.
The most basic everything would essentially be the absence of everything -but the presence of that which would and could become everything. Developments necessarily occurred in logical order which made an increasingly more complex environment out of simple states and interactions.
There would be no complex aware self/selves or complex environment of which to be aware -but the basic aspects of both would exist and develop in tandem -eventually producing the processing ability necessary to consider the concepts of self and environment -and increasingly self-determine both.

Our minds are similar. Our minds are a necessary intermediate stage between pre-human nature and human creation -which is indicative of our nature whether we still exist or not.

HOWEVER, we can determine that we and our environment are not completely natural or original -not produced in the absence of creative activity -due to the fact that or selves and our environment were produced in reverse logical order to that which would be expected from simplicity -or in the absence of creative activity.

Our environments and even our selves were prepared for us -before us -and we as individuals had zero input until after awakening in an already-extrememly-capable mind and body.
That is not completely natural development, but mass-production.
We can not be the first examples of intelligence or creativity because we could not exist as we do without being purposefully intended.

I am essentially saying God IS PRE-NATURE NATURE (present nature is pre-nature in a different arrangement which required a brain) -rooted in greatest possible simplicity -having developed that which was necessary each step of the way in order to make things which followed not only generally -but specifically -possible.

Everything which now exists is composed of that which has "always" existed -but in a different arrangement -which required that a brain first exist/be produced.

(Realizations and questions would inevitably logically arise such as... "I" exist [by the development of some sort of arrangement of external and internal self-image/mirrors/self-replication in memory, etc.]. Is there nothing external to me? What is possible from here? What can I become? What can I do? Am I both that which acts and that which is acted upon? If there is nothing possible externally, what is possible internally? I am one. Are there others? If not, can there be others? How?)

(As for God being perfect, that would necessarily be so for continued development.
While it may not seem like many "natural" things would have been created by a "perfect" God, the intent of such should be considered. If the intent of such were to produce other perfect Gods, the first order of business would be to have them understand -or experience if necessary -and overcome imperfection themselves -and so learn to create perfection.)
 
Last edited:

1213

Well-Known Member
...
For a god existing the evidence is...

For me the evidence for God is this world as told in the Bible and the Bible. And Bible is evidence for me, because things go as told in there and I think people are too evil to make it without God.
 

the light

New Member
We will be putting together a publication that will take 7 years to construct, leaving the last 7 years for salvation
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
That is highly illogical because proof is still proof no matter who sees it.
Only IF it is available to the senses by anyone, and without special interpretation and/or assumption.

For example if someone videos something far away moving in Loch Ness is this evidence of the LN Monster?
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
For me the evidence for God is this world as told in the Bible and the Bible. And Bible is evidence for me, because things go as told in there and I think people are too evil to make it without God.
Who told you the Bible is evidence for God, and not just an ancient book of myth?
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
An honest approach to the prophecies of your religion show that they fail.
How do you know that they failed if you never looked at the prophecies and what happened later that fulfilled them?
Let's look at one clear failure. And I will explain to you why it fails. Your list claimed that he predicted nuclear weapons. Give the prophecy where he does that.
A failed prophecy is a prophecy that 'fails' to predict an event that happened later. Baha'u'llah did not fail to predict the atomic age so His prophecy did not fail. It is that simple.

From the book: The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, pp. 85-86

The coming dawn of the Atomic Age was writ large in the prophecies of Baha'u'llah and 'Abdu'1-Baha.

Nuclear Terror

Prophecy 21: The development of nuclear weapons.

In a Tablet entitled Words of Paradise (written shortly before His passing in 1892), Baha'u'llah noted the rush by Western civilization to develop ever-more-deadly weapons of war. Explaining the urgency of His call for world unity and peace, He declared:

Strange and astonishing things exist in the earth but they are hidden from the minds and the understanding of men. These things are capable of changing the whole atmosphere of the earth and their contamination would prove lethal.141

This reference to 'strange and astonishing things' aptly describes the twin processes of fission and fusion by which we obtain nuclear energy. The reality of such a power was again affirmed in 1911 by 'Abdu'1-Baha:

There is in existence a stupendous force, as yet, happily, undiscovered by man. Let us supplicate God, the Beloved, that this force be not discovered by science until spiritual civilization shall dominate the human mind. In the hands of men of lower material nature, this power would be able to destroy the whole earth.142

'Abdu'1-Baha spoke these portentous words to the Japanese ambassador to Spain, Viscount Arawaka, for whose country the warning carried grave implications.

An ironic coincidence? If so, it was not the only one. In 1920 'Abdu'1-Baha wrote to a group of young students in Tokyo: 'In Japan the divine proclamation will be heard as a formidable explosion .. .'U3 (I am aware of no other explosion metaphor in the Baha'i writings.) A quarter of a century later, the Japanese cities of Hiroshima and Nagasaki were vaporized in the first wartime use of atomic bombs. Today the world's nuclear arsenals contain enough firepower not only to destroy humanity many times over but to alter climate and atmosphere so drastically as to render the planet uninhabitable.
 

F1fan

Veteran Member
Logic, math, physics, etc., say so. We have the basic languages of reality. Therefore we have a basis for determining that which can not be readily produced or reproduced.
Man has managed to reverse-engineer the entire universe from one tiny planet within a relatively insignificant time frame -while being unable to actually produce or reproduce its history.
However, those of a mind to do so have generally not been interested in proving the existence of God, as many commonly-held beliefs about God were very quickly shown to be false (young earth and similar ideas).
Add to that the extreme troubles historically associated with religion, and it is understandable that the mere mention of God is unpleasant and wearisome.

Yet... none of that really has anything to do with whether or not a creative intelligence was involved with the initiation of the universe.
Focus has been on that event -and the apparent lack of need of a creative intelligence from that point -rather than what must have preceded it, caused it, etc.
If "In the beginning was simplicity" -that is in no way descriptive of the singularity which became our universe.

We have not focused on how PRE-UNIVERSE simplicity could have become/produced a singularity which essentially packaged all information necessary to cause the universe specifically -and all it would THEN inevitably become absent of creative input.

All possible things are first generally possible -then made specifically possible by continued development -each step making others possible.

The mind of such a creative intelligence can be shown to be necessary by that which has been produced -by determining what was necessary between simplicity an that which was produced -which is indeed indicative of a creative intelligence.
All things point back to that brain just as certainly as all PRESENT physics point back not only to the singularity and big bang, but also to PRE-PHYSICS "PHYSICS" -or those previous things which were transformed into present physics (the atoms are made of things which once were not arranged as such, etc).

Present nature can't produce an Antikythera mechanism specifically -and pre-universe physics could not have produced present physics specifically -without a creative intelligence capable of understanding, modelling, altering reality in memory and then purposefully applying those changes ...is the general idea. Add to that the specific nature of the universe which is indicative of the nature of that intelligence -just as the Antikythera mechanism is indicative of the nature of its creator. The universe has a very specific purpose. It has produced a vast and rich environment by first causing complicated interactive building blocks which produced presently-innumerable worlds within the greater environment -upon which -and from the same interactive building blocks -innumerable and infinitely-varied life forms can develop, adapt, survive, increase in ability and mastery of environment, experience the qualia produced by various arrangements of those building blocks, learn to understand those building blocks to the point of manipulating them to create intended future states of both environment and self.
One can know a brain exists/existed by considering the mechanism in question. That is true even if said brain no longer exists as such -and can not be produced!
You're trying to define the mechanism of atoms, molecules, compounds, chemicals, the four forces, and the laws of physics as if they are information in the sense that we humans use it. This is a common creationist approach that is highly misleading.

A MATERIAL brain is indeed necessary -but such does not require the PRESENT state of matter.
If you're claiming this a fact then show the science that backs you up. Otherwise it gets thrown out.

In fact, a pre-present-material brain was necessary to produce present material from previous material -based not only on presently-apparent extreme purposeful complexity and specificity, but the fact that specific systems must be in place (processing, modelling, memory, etc) which are able to transform that which naturally develops into that which does not and can not otherwise naturally develop!
You're calling this a fact, so show us the science, or we throw it out.

PRE-PHYSICS "PHYSICS" / laws would have produced what they naturally did -until they produced the capability of producing the otherwise-impossible -which is by way of a brain produced step-by-step which is then capable of awareness, self-awareness, decision -self-determination. It is a necessary and perfectly natural intermediate stage.

Our minds are similar. Our minds are a necessary intermediate stage between pre-human nature and human creation -which is indicative of our nature whether we still exist or not.

HOWEVER, we can determine that we and our environment are not completely natural or original -not produced in the absence of creative activity -due to the fact that or selves and our environment were produced in reverse logical order to that which would be expected from simplicity -or in the absence of creative activity.
This is kind of true if you follow the relevant sciences. But none of it backs uo the assertion that there's a creator/intelligent design/God.

Our environments and even our selves were prepared for us -before us -and we as individuals had zero input until after awakening in an already-extrememly-capable mind and body.
That is not completely natural development, but mass-production.
We can not be the first examples of intelligence or creativity because we could not exist as we do without being purposefully intended.
Facts and science don't back you up here, so we throw it out.

I am essentially saying God IS PRE-NATURE NATURE (present nature is pre-nature in a different arrangement which required a brain) -rooted in greatest possible simplicity -having developed that which was necessary each step of the way in order to make things which followed not only generally -but specifically -possible.

Everything which now exists is composed of that which has "always" existed -but in a different arrangement -which required that a brain first exist/be produced.
You offered no facts or science to support these claims, so we throw them out.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
A wall of text that one posts as if it was one's own is always dishonest.
What is dishonest about posting information from a book, when it was you who brought the subject of Baha'u'llah's prophecies in the first place?

And the prediction of Baha'u'llah fail due to being far too vague and far too open ended. They were fairly reasonable "predictions" that could have applied to all sorts of events. If anything the predictions are evidence against him.
#618 Subduction Zone, Yesterday at 8:42 PM

You brought it up so it was fair game in a debate and it was an appropriate response.

As if it was my own? Hardly. I cited the book at the end if my post.

The Challenge of Baha'u'llah, PROOFS OF THE BAHA'I REVELATION, pp. 35-40

#622 Trailblazer, Yesterday at 10:13 PM

By contrast, when you posted the Criteria for a true prophecy you did not cite the source. Later I did a Google search and I found the source, so now I have an idea what those criteria were being applied to and who wrote them.
 

Etritonakin

Well-Known Member
You're trying to define the mechanism of atoms, molecules, compounds, chemicals, the four forces, and the laws of physics as if they are information in the sense that we humans use it. This is a common creationist approach that is highly misleading.


If you're claiming this a fact then show the science that backs you up. Otherwise it gets thrown out.


You're calling this a fact, so show us the science, or we throw it out.


This is kind of true if you follow the relevant sciences. But none of it backs uo the assertion that there's a creator/intelligent design/God.


Facts and science don't back you up here, so we throw it out.


You offered no facts or science to support these claims, so we throw them out.

I provided everything necessary -but you have to do the work yourself ;)
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
No, what that tells you is that it probably is not proof. If only a few see it as proof it is far more likely that they only want to believe.
To say that if many people see it it must be true is to commit the fallacy of argumentum ad populum.
There is a good reason why only a few see that proof, and it is logical.

Matthew 7:13-14 Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it.

When Jesus said that Christianity was the narrow gate that led to life, when there were very few Christians in the first centuries, but Christianity is no longer the narrow road that leads to life because about 30% of the world population is now Christians. Given that Christianity is now the largest religion in the world, Christianity is no longer the narrow road that leads to life.

The Baha'i Faith is now the small gate and the narrow road that leads to eternal life in this age. The Baha’i Faith and is the narrow gate because only a few people recognize God’s new religion in the beginning and enter through that gate.

In every new age, the religion at the narrow gate is the new religion God wants us to find and follow, and it is the gate that leads to eternal life. But it is not that easy for most people to find this gate because most people are steeped in religious tradition or attached to what they already believe. If they do not have a religion, most people are suspicious of the new religion and the new messenger. If they are atheists they do not like the idea of messengers of God or they think they are all phonies.

Jesus told us to enter through the narrow gate, the gate that leads to eternal life, and Jesus said few people would find that gate... It is narrow, so it is difficult to get through... It is difficult to get through because one has to be willing to give up all their preconceived ideas, have an open mind, and think for themselves. Most people do not normally embark upon such a journey. They go through the wide gate, the easy one to get through – their own religious tradition or their own preconceived ideas about God or no God. They follow that broad road that is easiest for them to travel.
 

Trailblazer

Veteran Member
Only IF it is available to the senses by anyone, and without special interpretation and/or assumption.
Religious truth does not come through the senses.

83: THE FOUR METHODS OF ACQUIRING KNOWLEDGE

Discovering Truth does not come by making assumptions but special interpretation of scriptures is necessary.
Making assumptions that something is not the Truth is one surefire way of never discovering the Truth.

“If a man were to declare, ‘There is a lamp in the next room which gives no light’, one hearer might be satisfied with his report, but a wiser man goes into the room to judge for himself, and behold, when he finds the light shining brilliantly in the lamp, he knows the truth!” Paris Talks, p. 103
 

McBell

Unbound
The crack about sermons.
They seemed awful preachy to me.

Especially after finding your unsourced criteria list...

I do not disagree with the list.
However, I am curious who came up with it.
A direct question you completely failed to address, let alone answer.

What, exactly, makes her question about the standards "foolish (and that is being generous)"?
So "foolish" in fact, the only thing you were able to provide in answer is to be "generous" calling it "foolish" and make the bold empty claim that "it is an admission that you were wrong"?

Which brings up the whole wrong about what, exactly?
 

the light

New Member
I read the replies in this post and I see everyone is lost in the hot noise of debate of he said, she said, this and that, black and white. This has been going on for how many years now and look how far you've gotten.. IF you are delivered to God by death, it will be judgement day for you. I can't even respond to some of this because YOU still believe in a mythical creature named "jesus", does common sense not click in when a made up "jesus" speaks his "Words" also will be made up as well... The ideology of "jesus" is very real, extremely real, but you need to know the actual truth in order to fully understand. You people need to slow down seriously, there is no rush, time is not real because it equals light.. (think the sundial)... You have a lot of built up energy and instead of being apart of the problem, you should be apart of the solution. And I promise you...IF YOU are apart of that solution, YOU will be delivered into paradise by not death
 
Top