Evidence for an ancient earth

[Bob the Unbeliever]

It sounds like you are basing your bias (no god can possibly exist) to state categorically that all theists are more biased than atheists. That has not been my experience.

I have *yet* to see a god (as described by some "holey" book) that did not act like a spoilt child.

Such a god cannot exist-- as such a deity would have wiped us out (again) in a fit of childish rage.

The bible's god is one such-- the examples of childish petulance by it's god is too numerous to answer.

Among the worst, are murdering the whole world for the mistakes the god made, murdering first-born babies because bible-god could not be bothered to simply eliminate a recalcitrant leader, and killing a poor slob for daring to prevent the ark from falling off a wagon?

Seriously?

Or how about murdering a bunch of **children** for teasing an old bald guy-- by she-bears...

Really?

This petulant and spoiled child is... the Ultimate Creator?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You are unaware that telling a story twice is a part of ancient Hebraic thought, as in Genesis?

It's hardly the same story, now is it? Please do not insult my intelligence -- I can read both Genesis Creation stories for myself.

They contradict one another on multiple counts.

You cannot spin that away-- to do so, is to either admit they are not literal? (Ask the Jews-- who's book this is-- will happily tell you-- these are just parables)

Or that at least one of the stories is lying.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

I don't understand. Dr. Tyson agrees with my viewpoint but only I'm a liar?

You misrepresented Dr Tyson's words. A form of lying.

 

[BilliardsBall]

There is clear evidence that for hundreds of thousands of years there were few humans on the planet as agriculture was not invented. Food constraints kept our numbers quite low for 99% of human history. We did not start out as dominant, we grew into it through accrual of technology. Humans have been around for 200,000 years while humans invented agriculture around 12000 years ago. Even then agricultural productivity has increased slowly with time keeping a check on ancient populations. I have already shown you the laws of population growth and the evidence for it in a previous post refuting your ideas about extrapolation.
Evidence for an ancient earth

Why do you think all major technology like agronomy, city-building, etc. exploded in a Cambrian fashion at a distinct period of time?

Why do you think pre-history (no documents) is approximately when many creationists think the Flood may have occurred?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Modern science considers the idea of absolute motion as incoherent. There is no such thing and cannot be if Einstein's results are valid.

I think you meant "inconvenient" not "incoherent". Einstein's results would be valid but Earth near the center still explains the observable data.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Why are you dictating what i believe

I do not account for it, because i do not guess, it is unknown and those who claim god magic created the universe are guilty of lying.

There are however several scientific theories backed up with existing data and/or mathematical modelling. As far as i know, non claim eternal preexistence

Okay, I am rather implying what you ought to believe--based on logic.

There is no eternal preexistence for this universe. Where does it derive from? "Another universe or multiverse" begs the question.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Universe Expanding Symmetrically, Real-Time Analysis Shows

Also

Our speed can be measured against the CMB. Relative to the CMB, the Milky Way, including earth, is moving long at 1.2 million mph

Help me understand. You are claiming the CMB shows movement equal in all Cartesian directions and also movement THROUGH the CMB in a given "direction"? Saying the Milky Way and another galaxy, for example, will collide in 200 million years, does not prove whether the galaxy is coming toward ours, vice versa or mutual movement.

You seem to state a lot of things as categorical fact that I cannot find in the literature. Let's solve our mutual disagreements by defining terms carefully and by being open minded.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What? The perimeter institute is a research establishment devoted to foundational issues in theoretical physics focusing on cosmology, particle physics, condensed matter, various quantum areas of research and strong gravity. They don't speculate on superstition and nonsense

I understand they don't speculate on religious matters. I questioned why you pointed me there as if I'm going to "learn" that our absolute motion can be detected--I doubt they say so because that would be nonsense speculation. I believe you are smarter than that assertion.

 

[BilliardsBall]

The minus indicates the magnitude after the decimal point, not a negative.

I can't say I've seen any knowledgeable person misquoting scripture, on the contrary, i find that religious people tend to be selective to the point of cherry picking. I have even argued with christians who actually deny some of the of writing's in the ot.

The problem is they do not want to admit what is actually written in the babble.

Repeating, if you wish to debate me or discuss with me, you will use the word Bible and not babble.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So no sources, no citations, shall we assume you made the number up?

What number?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Respect is earned,
i do not show respect because you dictate.

Not showing me respect is different than showing me disrespect. You are also insulting every Christian on this forum and in the world with "babble".

I have NEVER once said you are stupid, your sources are babbling, your scientific references are disreputable, etc.

You seem to come from a place of hurt, but that's no reason to hurt me and spit on my Holy Bible with your words. Stop it.

 

[BilliardsBall]

What? The earth's mountain ranges have not substantially changed in all of human history.

This is undisputed fact-- it's basic geology, even if you don't like it.

You cannot magically say the earth was "different" to fit your story's narrative. That isn't how it works.

Evolution has not shown a change in all human history either. In prehistory, you are saying the geological processes were forming a smoother or bumpier Earth?

 

[viole]

I'm talking about the phenomenon of time dilation over a distance.

If heavenly water is beyond a finite universe, than no, you wouldn't have read about it in a magazine--since we have never seen the edge--our telescopes penetrate up to a finite distance. Do you disagree?

Time dilation has nothing to do with distance. It has to do with relative speed. And, if you were right, then from the point of view of a distant star, we are the ones being billion years old.

And there isn't neither heavenly water (whatever that is) nor edges of the Universe. I wonder where you get these ideas.

You are misrepresenting my viewpoint. The Bible isn't confirmed (proved) by science. Science is evolving and finite in knowledge, there is more to learn, as we would both agree. What we are rather finding is that when skeptics say science disproves the Bible (look how old the universe has to be based on our extrapolating backward using uniformitarian assumptions!) that other science reveals intriguing possibilities (time dilation).

Science says that all heavy materials the earth is made of, including oxygen (for H2O) are the by-product of supernova explosions. And it also claims that the sun is a second generation star.

Do you agree? Or do you just mark all those things as belonging to the set of findings that will be overruled when we know more?

My personal suggestion is to follow what Scientific hip believers do:

1) demote to metaphors and figurative language all the obviously wrong claims of the Bible
2) keep as literal only the parts that have not been disproved yet

Again, look at things like the young faint Sun paradox. The Sun is smaller over a billion years ago and not sustaining the plant life on Earth that Evolution teaches was here . . .

Faint sun paradox? Look, i have a pretty dark office (I like it like that). My plants seem to prosper without a problem there.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

Where did the water go, for afters, then? Did god magically *poof* it all away?

Why not just magically *poof* all the bad people dead in the first place?

Why kill all the world's kittens along with the badly-created humans?

The water in the Earth's oceans is sufficient to cover a flatter, pre-Flood Earth twice over. You speak facetiously, as if you didn't know the Earth is mostly covered with deep water, still.

The Flood is a type and picture. Noah's boat resembled a human coffin in makeup and rations. Noah and his kin represent a Christian dying and rising via water baptism - this is in the NT, by the way. I guess God could have poof-killed everyone the way you suggest, but seeing a preacher building a giant boat in a dry land--well, people got to talking and for decades, debating, arguing, sinning. God then let all those people make their own minds and wills up against the preacher and the preacher's God.

God didn't kill all the cats in the world. There's a lovely one displayed in your avatar. Atheists always see the half-empty glass. There have been millions of lovely cats since the Flood.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Please do not put words in my mouth, and I'll try to do you the same.

You have it 100% bass-ackwards.

As one physics professor once quipped, "I had no need for the god hypothesis".

It's not that I *begin* with "no god".

It *is* that there is no real need to insert (a) god in the first place-- this is a subtle, but very important distinction.

Why does it matter? Because I am open to the idea of there needing to be a god to "explain" Cosmology.

I have yet to see such a need, however, and you have certainly not made your case for one, either.

Huh? You put the words in my mouth. I tend to ask skeptics about the pre-BB, and they tend to say, "Dunno, but God didn't do it" which begs the question. Why resist your natural assumption, that a being of power did it?

 

[BilliardsBall]

All churches require money-- the more, the better they are at being church.

This is basic economics.

What I find amusing? Is that if there actually was a Real God ™ behind any of it?

Would not this god-guidance eliminate any and all need for ... money? Could not god simply fabricate some rare metals to sell, say on a weekly basis?

Or could not god guide his followers to use the Stock Market, in such a way that the church *never* need ask it's (typically too poor to be doing such things) congregation for money every week? (oh lordy-- pastor needs a new Cadillac-- the gas tank's almost empty! )

Or even a single Lottery win?

Or are such mundane things too much for the god these people believe in?

As for me? I expect superior workmanship from a being with the title "god".....!

Weekly begging for finances seems .... so mundane.

Are you asking me for a response or being purely rhetorical? I cannot tell, still.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have *yet* to see a god (as described by some "holey" book) that did not act like a spoilt child.

Such a god cannot exist-- as such a deity would have wiped us out (again) in a fit of childish rage.

The bible's god is one such-- the examples of childish petulance by it's god is too numerous to answer.

Among the worst, are murdering the whole world for the mistakes the god made, murdering first-born babies because bible-god could not be bothered to simply eliminate a recalcitrant leader, and killing a poor slob for daring to prevent the ark from falling off a wagon?

Seriously?

Or how about murdering a bunch of **children** for teasing an old bald guy-- by she-bears...

Really?

This petulant and spoiled child is... the Ultimate Creator?

The young men out in the woods on their own were killed by young bears after mocking a prophet who had done recent, local, prominent miracles. There weren't a troop of 42 children out in the woods in Israel (where there were wild bears, lions and more).

Was a man killed for daring to prevent the ark for falling to the ground? Was there another Bible statement regarding touching the ark?

Did Pharoah kill any first-born Jews before God repaid Egypt by killing firstborn? Did Pharoah or the Pharoah's before them act in a petulant manner? Do you see any Bible examples of God's patience or is it only petulance? For example, Paul writes:

You will say to me then, “Why does He still find fault? For who resists His will?” 20 On the contrary, who are you, O man, who answers back to God? The thing molded will not say to the molder, “Why did you make me like this,” will it? 21 Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make from the same lump one vessel for honorable use and another for common use? 22 What if God, although willing to demonstrate His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much patience vessels of wrath prepared for destruction? 23 And He did so to make known the riches of His glory upon vessels of mercy, which He prepared beforehand for glory, 24 even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles. 25 As He says also in Hosea,

“I will call those who were not My people, ‘My people,’
And her who was not beloved, ‘beloved.’”
26 “And it shall be that in the place where it was said to them, ‘you are not My people,’
There they shall be called sons of the living God.”

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's hardly the same story, now is it? Please do not insult my intelligence -- I can read both Genesis Creation stories for myself.

They contradict one another on multiple counts.

You cannot spin that away-- to do so, is to either admit they are not literal? (Ask the Jews-- who's book this is-- will happily tell you-- these are just parables)

Or that at least one of the stories is lying.

Why do you think that thousands of believing and skeptical scholars alike have pointed out that one story was the 30,000-foot overview and the other focused on man's creation (before the Fall and expulsion from Eden)?

 

[BilliardsBall]

It's hardly the same story, now is it? Please do not insult my intelligence -- I can read both Genesis Creation stories for myself.

They contradict one another on multiple counts.

You cannot spin that away-- to do so, is to either admit they are not literal? (Ask the Jews-- who's book this is-- will happily tell you-- these are just parables)

Or that at least one of the stories is lying.

You know I'm Jewish, right? I know many of my people say it's just parables. I'm a Christian because I began with belief that the OT is more than just parables in form and content.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You misrepresented Dr Tyson's words. A form of lying.

Huh? You should look at the thread where you accused me of lying while also posting I was in agreement with Neil d-T.

Or not. I'm not big on ad hominem attacks on my person, particularly when the Bible says atheists delight in doing so. Prove the Bible wrong by talking with me about the facts.