Evidence for an ancient earth

[BilliardsBall]

Time dilation has nothing to do with distance. It has to do with relative speed. And, if you were right, then from the point of view of a distant star, we are the ones being billion years old.

And there isn't neither heavenly water (whatever that is) nor edges of the Universe. I wonder where you get these ideas.



Science says that all heavy materials the earth is made of, including oxygen (for H2O) are the by-product of supernova explosions. And it also claims that the sun is a second generation star.

Do you agree? Or do you just mark all those things as belonging to the set of findings that will be overruled when we know more?

My personal suggestion is to follow what Scientific hip believers do:

1) demote to metaphors and figurative language all the obviously wrong claims of the Bible
2) keep as literal only the parts that have not been disproved yet



Faint sun paradox? Look, i have a pretty dark office (I like it like that). My plants seem to prosper without a problem there.

Ciao

- viole

Sorry, but please tell me how you know whether or not there is water beyond our furthest telescopic sight? How did you learn there is no edge to the universe? That is theoretical in nature?

I suppose next you will tell me the universe is infinite because you personally took a spacecraft out to the end of the universe like a Doug Adams novel?!

 

[viole]

Sorry, but please tell me how you know whether or not there is water beyond our furthest telescopic sight? How did you learn there is no edge to the universe? That is theoretical in nature?

That oxygen is created inside stars is sciece orthodoxy. The Big Bang did not produce elements heavier than hydrogen and helium. Do you deny that?

I suppose next you will tell me the universe is infinite because you personally took a spacecraft out to the end of the universe like a Doug Adams novel?!

I have no clue whether it is infinite or not. Its empirical large scale flatness seems to entail it.

By the way, do you believe Mickey Mouse lives on Mars? If not, have you inspected any corner of that planet?

Ciao

- viole

 

[sayak83]

I think you meant "inconvenient" not "incoherent". Einstein's results would be valid but Earth near the center still explains the observable data.

No it does not. Please back up your word with an actual worked out theory.
And I meant incoherent. Absolute motion has been refuted by Einstein quite decisively.

 

[sayak83]

I think you meant "inconvenient" not "incoherent". Einstein's results would be valid but Earth near the center still explains the observable data.

I

Why do you think all major technology like agronomy, city-building, etc. exploded in a Cambrian fashion at a distinct period of time?

Why do you think pre-history (no documents) is approximately when many creationists think the Flood may have occurred?

There was no explosion, just a gradual accentuation of socio-technological sophistication over time. We have excellent archeological evidence of humans routinely grasses and managing wild herds of sheep and goats from 20000 BCE. The shift from mostly hunting/agro-forestry and some planting and husbandry to mostly planting and husbandry occurred very slowly over a 12,000 year period in the northern subtropical belt of human habitation where grasses formed a significant part of wild food resource. And this gradual transformation happened multiple times independently with strong region based cultural and technological continuity extending back to 25000 years before present. In short the transformation happened regionally and naturally over time with no discontinuity between what happened before and what happened after.
http://news.stanford.edu/news/2013/may/china-agriculture-origins-050213.html

 

[Polymath257]

Why do you think all major technology like agronomy, city-building, etc. exploded in a Cambrian fashion at a distinct period of time?

Well, the Cambrian 'explosion' happened over a period of about 45 million years.

No, it is not the case that *all* major technologies happened at about the same time. Iron smelting, for example, was later than city-building. But there was a collection of technologies that seem to be associated, at least in the Fertile Crescent. Agriculture and the development of 'cities' (most of which would be small towns by today's standards) seem to be linked. Writing happened later.

Why do you think pre-history (no documents) is approximately when many creationists think the Flood may have occurred?

Well, the term pre-history would encompass everything that was before history (i.e, written records). So, while I am sure that creationists think the flood happened in that time range, it is a pretty broad target.

My guess is that the flood myth in the Bible is derived from the epic of Gilgamesh, which was probably a legend from a local flood that we have evidence of that destroyed a number of towns (but not even all in the region).

 

[Polymath257]

Help me understand. You are claiming the CMB shows movement equal in all Cartesian directions and also movement THROUGH the CMB in a given "direction"?

No. The CMB has a dipole aspect that shows movement through that CMB. After subtracting off that dipole, the rest is very nearly (to within 1 part in 100,000) uniform.

Saying the Milky Way and another galaxy, for example, will collide in 200 million years, does not prove whether the galaxy is coming toward ours, vice versa or mutual movement.

Motion is always relative. If the Milky way is moving closer to Andromeda, then Andromeda is moving closer to the Milky Way. The two statements are exactly equivalent. We can, if we want, discuss the two motions with respect to the CMB, but that isn't required or even helpful.

Okay, I am rather implying what you ought to believe--based on logic.

There is no eternal preexistence for this universe. Where does it derive from? "Another universe or multiverse" begs the question.

It isn't clear that either is the case. For that matter, it isn't clear that causality applies.

 

[ChristineM]

Okay, I am rather implying what you ought to believe--based on logic.

There is no eternal preexistence for this universe. Where does it derive from? "Another universe or multiverse" begs the question.

And god magic doesn't beg the question?

Please note faith without evidence is not logic

 

[ChristineM]

Help me understand. You are claiming the CMB shows movement equal in all Cartesian directions and also movement THROUGH the CMB in a given "direction"? Saying the Milky Way and another galaxy, for example, will collide in 200 million years, does not prove whether the galaxy is coming toward ours, vice versa or mutual movement.

You seem to state a lot of things as categorical fact that I cannot find in the literature. Let's solve our mutual disagreements by defining terms carefully and by being open minded.

I am saying that movement and direction (assuming direction is relevant) is measured in comparison to the CBM

And it is predicted that Andromeda will collide with our galaxy in about 4 to 5 billion years. This is known because the two galaxies are converging at around 119 Kms per second.

 

[ChristineM]

I understand they don't speculate on religious matters. I questioned why you pointed me there as if I'm going to "learn" that our absolute motion can be detected--I doubt they say so because that would be nonsense speculation. I believe you are smarter than that assertion.

Read some of the papers and learn. Absolute is as meaningless up/down/left/right/x/y/z in the universe, speed and direction are measured relative to other objects and phenomenon, the cmb for example

 

[ChristineM]

What number?

8

You claimed 8 people

 

[ChristineM]

Not showing me respect is different than showing me disrespect. You are also insulting every Christian on this forum and in the world with "babble".

I have NEVER once said you are stupid, your sources are babbling, your scientific references are disreputable, etc.

You seem to come from a place of hurt, but that's no reason to hurt me and spit on my Holy Bible with your words. Stop it.

You can say whatever you like about me, and when you know as much about me as i know about the babble then i will respect that opinion.

I have explained why i consider the babble the babble, you have never done anything to allay that. Telling how a bronze age book is does not disrespect Christians it disrespects a book. I know some fine Christians, my best friend is very devout. I also have had dealings with some of the most obnoxious murdering ******** on this planet who also happen to be Christian, they learn their ways from that book.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why do you think all major technology like agronomy, city-building, etc. exploded in a Cambrian fashion at a distinct period of time?

Why do you think pre-history (no documents) is approximately when many creationists think the Flood may have occurred?

What do you mean, "no documents"? There are countless artifacts from thousands and thousands of years before the first written ones.

Just the ancient cave paintings alone, prove people had a kind of civilization thousands of years prior to your flood fairy-tale.

And by the way, those same paintings prove to 100% that the flood story never happened...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Evolution has not shown a change in all human history either. In prehistory, you are saying the geological processes were forming a smoother or bumpier Earth?

Okay, basic physics lesson, here.

Let's pretend, for a second, that the earth's features were essentially flat. And that the magic flood changed those features from featureless plains into the mountains and valleys we see today.

In less than 2 years--- as your bible requires.

Let's also pretend that the energy budget for these processes was efficient to the tune of 99.9999999% efficient-- with a scant 0.0000000000001% energy loss...

How much excess heat do you think would be generated, to change the world to match it's current contours, from one that is essentially featureless (like a cueball)? Give my assumption, above?

(note: my assumption is incredibly generous-- MOST events that change the earth, are incredibly wasteful of energy-- take earthquakes, for example-- far less than 20% of the available energy actually goes into changing the landscape-- the rest is wasted on vibrations-- and HEAT... but nevermind that)

Here, I'll answer: Enough leftover heat, IF IT TOOK A MERE 2 YEARS, enough leftover heat to MELT THE WHOLE PLANET-- BOIL THE SEAS INTO STEAM-- KILLING ALL LIFE ON EARTH.

So. That is RIGHT OUT: It simply did not happen.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The water in the Earth's oceans is sufficient to cover a flatter, pre-Flood Earth twice over. You speak facetiously, as if you didn't know the Earth is mostly covered with deep water, still.

WRONG.

See my previous post-- the ENERGY needed to RESHAPE THE EARTH WOULD BOIL ALL THE OCEANS.

Killing everything on the planet-- even poor old incestuous Noah...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

God didn't kill all the cats in the world. There's a lovely one displayed in your avatar. Atheists always see the half-empty glass. There have been millions of lovely cats since the Flood.

LIAR! He killed ALL THE KITTENS--- which is what I wrote!

ALL.

THE.

CUTE.

FLUFFY.

BABY KITTENS.

DEAD. DROWNED. MEWING THEIR FORLORN CRIES AS YOUR MONSTER-GOD DROWNED THEM.

Why?

WHY DO YOU HATE KITTENS?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Huh? You put the words in my mouth. I tend to ask skeptics about the pre-BB, and they tend to say, "Dunno, but God didn't do it" which begs the question. Why resist your natural assumption, that a being of power did it?

Asking something about "what happened before time was even possible" is meaningless.

Time AND space are the same thing-- they are inseparable.

And that fact alone, utterly destroys your god-claims-- but nevermindthatrightnow.

You cannot "discuss what happened before the big bang" because it's meaningless.

If you had 1/2 a clue-- you would understand that....

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why resist your natural assumption, that a being of power did it?

"natural assumption"? SERIOUSLY?

My NATURAL assumption for certain does not include a magic Sky Genie who grants Wishes (prayers)...!

I was born an ATHEIST-- until some well-meaning ******* lied to me over and over...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Are you asking me for a response or being purely rhetorical? I cannot tell, still.

Why does your Ultimate Creator ... require ... MONEY?

Seriously. Is your god so feeble, that it cannot manage to fix a simple LOTTERY game?

I mean... how WEAK is THAT?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

The young men out in the woods on their own were killed by young bears after mocking a prophet ...

So.

Your monster-god's MASSIVE EGO is SO WEAK, that it issues a DEATH PENALTY for ... mere words?

Wow...!

I mean... just... wow!

That means? *I* a lowly HUMAN have SUPERIOR MORALITY to your god's!

I do not think that mere words are EVER worthy of DEATH!

That's pretty sad... seriously!

 

[ChristineM]

LIAR! He killed ALL THE KITTENS--- which is what I wrote!

ALL.

THE.

CUTE.

FLUFFY.

BABY KITTENS.

DEAD. DROWNED. MEWING THEIR FORLORN CRIES AS YOUR MONSTER-GOD DROWNED THEM.

Why?

WHY DO YOU HATE KITTENS?

It also seems he had a loathing of pregnant women making god the first knowing abortionist