Evidence for an ancient earth

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So far, I have discussed several methods for determining the age of the earth. There is another highly informative manner by which one can independently determine the age of the solar system, that is by calculating the age of the sun itself. Here is how it goes,

1) The abundance of Helium and Hydrogen at the sun's core is determined by Helioseismology (LINK). It's a technique where the Shockwaves in the sun are used to calculate composition, density etc. It is found that whole Helium is at 27% by mass in most of the sun, near the core it rises rapidly to peak at about 65% at the center.

2) The reason for this increasing Helium is nuclear fusion, the primary driver of sun's energy. This process consumes 4 hydrogen atoms to make one helium atom releasing 26.7 MeV of energy in the process per reaction.

3) The rate of radiation energy from the sun can be determined by instruments on ground or in satellites. Sun is radiating energy at 3.9*10^26 Watts.

4) Fusion reaction only occurs at the core of the Sun. Helium concentration both at the Sun's outer surface and in Jupiter provide the initial concentration of Helium in the solar nebula our of which Sun formed. The two data values match and from this we deduce that initial He concentration was 27%

5) From Helioseismology it follows then that 4.2% of Sun's mass is from Helium produced internally at the core by fusion.

6) 1 MeV = 1.6*10^(-13) joules
So rate of Helium conversion happening at the core =Energy Radiatoated by sun in a second/ Energy released per Helium nuclei formef
= 3.9*10^26/(26.72*1.6*10^-13) = 9.1*10^37 helium nuclei formed per second.

Mass of Helium nuclei is 6.64*10^-27 kg.
Mass of Sun is 1.99*10^30 kg

7)Assuming a highly simple model where the sun has produced Helium at this steady rate always and sun has not lost much mass due to radiation etc.

Age of sun = Total Mass of Helium produced by fusion over time/Mass of Helium produced per second
=(0.042*1.99*10^30 kg) /(6.64*10^-27*9.1*10^37 kg/s)
= 1.4*10^17 seconds
= 4.4 billion years.

More precise models give the date to be 4.6 billion years, so we are not too far off using such simple calculations.

Thus along with the consistent values from multiple radioactive decay based age data for Earth, moon, Mars and meteor rocks; we now have an entirely independent nuclear fusion based data for age of the Sun that also matches the age calculations.

Brilliant analysis. Kudos, man! I'm literally in awe.

 

[gnostic]

No, they may be empirically testable because they should leave some traces in our universe when collisions occur (which must also happen).

Might happen...if it happened. But that's really a what-if speculation.

To date, there have been no evidences for a collision of the universe.

 

[ChristineM]

Might happen...if it happened. But that's really a what-if speculation.

To date, there have been no evidences for a collision of the universe.

Laura Mersini Houghton's theory regarding the bb suggests that the bruises evident on the CMB are indication of universe's colliding. It is backed up by galactic clusters in the area of the bruises are moving contrary to the general expansion of space.

Not evidence of course but a fairly sound conclusion derived from the evidence.

See
[0809.3623] Birth of the Universe from the Multiverse
And read the paper, it's a PDF or postscript linked in the right hand menu


See also other cosmologists views on the subject

It's about an hour long but a fascinating i sight into the leading edge of cosmology

 

[ChristineM]

Might happen...if it happened. But that's really a what-if speculation.

To date, there have been no evidences for a collision of the universe.

Not evidence of course but a theory built on the observable evidence of the bruises on the CMB and galactic clusters in the region of the bruises moving contrary to general universal expansion.
[0809.3623] Birth of the Universe from the Multiverse
The paper is linked from the right-hand menu in PDF or PostScript


See also

For other the views of other cosmologists

 

[viole]

I don't deny the science. You are denying the possibilities that our universe is a bubble inside another universe filled with water or more stars and hydrogen/helium or pink unicorns, but you tend to stop your gedanken where science stops--convenient since science inductively observes what and how without why, prescience, prophecy, love or authentication from original eyewitnesses!

Eye witnesses? You mean the Jews?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

Speed and distance ARE related in this case.

Where did you get the idea that an edge(s) of the universe are disproven?

You understand that our telescopes only see/detect up to a finite distance?

You disbelieve the possibility that there are other universes/multiverses? You know for sure that their composition lacks water?

Oh dear. We can see the composition of the early Universe. There is only hydrogen, some helium and some very few light elements. No oxygen. That comes much later, when the first stars go supernova.

And since oxygen travels slower than light, it is perfectly irrelevant what could exist beyond the visible horizon.

Here’s what is bothersome to you, that I don’t do that. So you are suggesting I trivialize things I don’t understand. I both understand and am accusing you of trying to demonize my position using special knowledge, knowledge so special, in fact, you’d be omniscient and a god! I’m growing tired of skeptics saying ignorant things like “the universe is infinite” or “there is no water in space” when there is water here in this timespace—in their bodies!

I am not demonize anything. I just think it is not rational to make up scientific evidence to explain a made up divinity. You can save yourself a lot of work by making up just the latter.

Faint young Sun paradox - Wikipedia

And? I told you. My office plants prosper with very dim light, too. The same can be said with many organisms that live deep in the oceans.

Ciao

- viole

 

[BilliardsBall]

Seriously? You are going to go with that dodge? Do I need to post a direct quote of your bible here?

Go back and read it-- the total story from beginning to build the ark, to it's final resting place is a couple of years at best.

If you are going to ignore your own book every time it suits you? You have zip to argue with!

Why do you keep trimming our discussions? Is it because it puts everything I write out of context?

The ark was afloat for around a year, but I was asking you why it was only two years according to the scriptures for the post-Flood geologic upheaveals, ice age(s), etc.

Either keep our whole thread of discussion together, so we can use reason together, or let's not talk anymore. Thanks for understanding.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh good grief-- do you not read your own bible story? Noah had sex with his daughters! (or daughters-in-law-- same thing)

You are thinking of Laban, not Noah. I discuss the Bible with many, but I prefer to argue with people who read and comprehend what they read!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Prove it. Show your work. Hint: Your bible IS NOT PROOF-- IT IS YOUR CLAIM.

I will wait-- but I won't hold my breath (don't want to pass out).

You require proof from me that there was no linear spacetime before there was space and light following the expansion of the BB singularity? You don't accept the commonly scientifically upheld views on this? Really?

 

[BilliardsBall]

As usual this is a set of anomalous experimental data from one lab group that could not be repeated by others and had been shown to be due to faulty experimental methods.
Rev. Mod. Phys. 27, 167 (1955) - New Analysis of the Interferometer Observations of Dayton C. Miller

Is that a joke you've written? You can prove motion (or the lack of local motion) by experimental and inductive observation?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Writing like any other technology was invented at a certain time. Why would there be writing before it was invented? By the same logic does the absence of cars in the 19th century show a flood happened?

That's not "by the same logic". What is actually in force is the claim that around a certain time there was a worldwide apocalyptic catastrophe. You want instead to believe that writing was invented in multiple places around the same time after hundreds of thousands of years following the dawn of man. Occam's says you are leaping to extraordinary conclusions.

 

[BilliardsBall]

I have any number of Jewish friends-- and you are not Jewish.

I once asked one of them why they don't accept Jesus as the messiah-- the answers were interesting. The most interesting one, is that Jesus fails to fulfill pretty much all the required messianic texts, from the Jewish bible.

Not the least of which he wasn't descended from David.... (Joseph wasn't his father, except by convention, so that does not count)

There's a lot more to it, beyond the scope of this thread.

There's actually not a lot more to it, although I suppose I should call an NTS fallacy on you for redefining me as not a Jew. I was circumcised in my home, eight days after I was born, had a Jewish education and was Bar Mitzvah at a prominent synagogue.

A better way to look at it is this--most Jews don't believe the OT is the Word of God, either. So them telling us that Jesus failed to jump through hoops they imagine exist in the OT is a leap "of faith".

 

[BilliardsBall]

Not really. Not even a little bit, in actual fact.

For example? The entire Exodus myth? Never happened. Absolutely zero archeological evidence in support of thousands (or millions as the story claims) wandering the desert during the alleged time-frame.

But wait! It's Worse! Moses supposedly fled Egypt-- but. Just across the Red (Reed) Sea? Was still Egypt at that time and place!

So, no-- not even a little bit accurate, here.

At what time and place? Where did you date the Exodus in the Bible, and how?

If the Exodus has no archaeology to verify it, that does not negate the thousands of places, people and other facts verified by archaeology.

One of the issues is you are seeking leftovers from a large group of people who were nomadic in tents rather than building homes in the Sinai... and so if you and I use our best tools to find a dig spot, we can be off by say, only a mile or a few hundred yards from a campsite, and find nothing.

 

[BilliardsBall]

You have YET to post an actual ... FACT.

Hint: your bible isn't fact-- it's your CLAIM. You cannot use your CLAIM as proof.

Hint: It's not UP to ME to disprove your CLAIM-- you have failed to prove it in the FIRST PLACE.

So, you don't have any facts?

 

[BilliardsBall]

You mean Utnapistim? Yes, I have read the Epic of Gilgamesh.

Yes, the story of Noah has a more elaborate boat. That tends to happen when legends get told numerous times: the story gets elaborated.

Stories do grow in the telling, but not with heightened specificity and detail from an eyewitness testimony viewpoint. Gilgamesh and Genesis are like comparing Kindergarten with University. The Bible is ultra-specific in its recounting and details.

Asking again--are you familiar with the scholarship saying that in the Epic, the seeker is looking for the biblical Noah, his forefather?!

 

[BilliardsBall]

Pre-history isn't a specific time. ALL of the history of the universe before writing started (history) would technically be pre-history. Humans have been around for 1-200.000 years, only the last 5000 have had writing. So even saying it is 'approximately' when something occurred is being incoherent.

I find it interesting that the pre-history era (the term given to pre-writing times) and the Flood times intersect. 195,000 years of nothing and then writing evolves simultaneously in multiple world regions?!

 

[BilliardsBall]

No, we can sum it up as 'there is no absolute frame of reference to define motion'.

Meaning that we may be in motion or not be in motion--my point.

 

[sayak83]

That's not "by the same logic". What is actually in force is the claim that around a certain time there was a worldwide apocalyptic catastrophe. You want instead to believe that writing was invented in multiple places around the same time after hundreds of thousands of years following the dawn of man. Occam's says you are leaping to extraordinary conclusions.

Writing was invented multiple times as there are thousands of years separating various inventions of writing and the form is also entirely different. This is no odd fact as most technologies and sciences are indeed seen to be invented independently multiple times through recorded history. Darwin and Wallace separately came up with evolution, Calculus was separately invented by Newton and Leibniz, telegram was invented separately by JC Bose and Marconi, bronze working was separately invented in Americas and in Asia. In fact if you look at technology and science, one is hard pressed to find even one example of unique invention. And many of these inventions cropped up nearly at the same time, as invention is driven by need, and the same economic forces contrive to drive similar inventions in close temporal proximity in disparate regions. Inventions of coins as a medium happened seven or eight times in a similar manner.
Frankly I can start an entirely new thread showing how human civilization has complete continuity over the last 20000 years thus refuting your flood narrative. I may do so in future. But here we are discussing the age of the earth and I will stick to that. I have presented evidence for age of the universe, constancy of laws, dating through multiple methods of rocks of earth as well as through analysis of the sun, all pointing to enormous and consistent evidence of a very old earth. I have also adequately refuted the older conflicting data regarding anomaly of some results showing that later experiments have shown them to be due to instrument error. Are you satisfied with the evidence and arguments? If so, I will concentrate on archeology regarding absence of flood data in a seperate thread. Each of my posts are summaries based on week-long research from multiple sources, so I like to focus my effort to improve quality. Thanks

Here is a detailed analysis of how writing evolved in three independent places Sumer (3500 BCE), China (1200 BCE) and MesoAmerica (300 BCE)

Linguistics 201: The Invention of Writing

Writing in Southwest Asia--the earliest anywhere-- seems to have developed out of economic expediency. The earliest uses of pictograms in Mesopotamia--pre-writing-- predated the Sumerians. Beginning with farming some 9000 years ago, tokens marked with simple pictures began to be used to label basic farm produce. With the rise of cities and urban centers of manufacture 6000 years ago, more complex pictographic tokens were also devised to label manufactured goods. Eventually, the tokens were replaced by impressions made on clay tablets. The simple tokens used to denote farm goods gave rise to the practice of pressing tokens into the clay tablets to produce a raised picture; the complex tokens used to denote manufactured goods were drawn on the clay tablets with a blunt reed called a stylus. The impressions left by the stylus were wedge shaped, thus giving rise to the name cuneiform, wedge-writing.

Where is the discontinuity?

 

[ChristineM]

You require proof from me that there was no linear spacetime before there was space and light following the expansion of the BB singularity? You don't accept the commonly scientifically upheld views on this? Really?

So what are the commonly held scientific views regarding before there was space? I'm pretty sure scientists would want to known what you claim is commonly upheld by them about a period that is unknown

I believe we've already discussed light which the scientific view is that it could not exist before photons could coalesce.

 

[BilliardsBall]

So a thousand years of massive tectonic activity as whole mountain ranges all over the world rose thousands of feet? Repeated volcanic eruptions and meteor strikes and no one bothers to mention it?

Quickly rising mountain ranges imply some vulcanism and meteor strikes--understand that some projections of same would be based on physics and others on the uniformitarian assumptions of modern "slow mountain" geology.

There were, like a few hundred to a few thousand people, who all heard from Grandpa Noah how and why it was all going down the way it was going down (or up, in this case)!

David, respectfully, you are making an argument from silence as well, which is all atheism is. If you wish God to speak to you . . . ask Him to do so.