Evidence for an ancient earth

[sayak83]

Is that a joke you've written? You can prove motion (or the lack of local motion) by experimental and inductive observation?

Do you not understand the paper you quoted? It was trying to prove absolute motion through ether, which has been disproved. Yes, one can disprove absolute motion from experimental observation. Not a joke

The observations that supported Einstein were disproofs of the concept of absolute motion. See below for how that is,

The principle of relativity — Einstein Online

 

[Jose Fly]

Quickly rising mountain ranges imply some vulcanism and meteor strikes--understand that some projections of same would be based on physics and others on the uniformitarian assumptions of modern "slow mountain" geology.

Such massive tectonic movement in such short periods of time are impossible without boiling off the oceans and atmosphere, thereby rendering the entire earth uninhabitable. Even some YEC's admit it can't happen without multiple miracles.

 

[BilliardsBall]

Eye witnesses? You mean the Jews?

Ciao

- viole

Huh?

Science is inductive observation. Inductive observation and logic tells us that when we see something supernatural, it may have been caused rather by natural processes we don't understand.

Why, for example, would you scoff at the resurrection of Jesus, when modern medicine routinely resurrects people?

 

[BilliardsBall]

Oh dear. We can see the composition of the early Universe. There is only hydrogen, some helium and some very few light elements. No oxygen. That comes much later, when the first stars go supernova.

And since oxygen travels slower than light, it is perfectly irrelevant what could exist beyond the visible horizon.




I am not demonize anything. I just think it is not rational to make up scientific evidence to explain a made up divinity. You can save yourself a lot of work by making up just the latter.



And? I told you. My office plants prosper with very dim light, too. The same can be said with many organisms that live deep in the oceans.

Ciao

- viole

I think you make it sound like everything is done and solved. The faint young Sun paradox is not "solved" with "organisms living in the oceans". The universe and the CMB are mostly homogenous and isometric, not wholly so, etc.

 

[viole]

Huh?

Science is inductive observation. Inductive observation and logic tells us that when we see something supernatural, it may have been caused rather by natural processes we don't understand.

Why, for example, would you scoff at the resurrection of Jesus, when modern medicine routinely resurrects people?

So, Jesus might have been resurrected by modern medicine, or by some some other natural event?

Ciao

- viole

 

[viole]

I think you make it sound like everything is done and solved. The faint young Sun paradox is not "solved" with "organisms living in the oceans". The universe and the CMB are mostly homogenous and isometric, not wholly so, etc.

Isometric? I guess you mean "isotropic".

Are you maybe talking of the pictures of the Universe when it was only some 300,000 years old and became transparent to light (and there were neither stars nor planets)?

Ciao

- viole

 

[ChristineM]

Stories do grow in the telling, but not with heightened specificity and detail from an eyewitness testimony viewpoint. Gilgamesh and Genesis are like comparing Kindergarten with University. The Bible is ultra-specific in its recounting and details.
k
Asking again--are you familiar with the scholarship saying that in the Epic, the seeker is looking for the biblical Noah, his forefather?!

What utter nonsense, the bible in no way is "ultra-specific" about genesis, on the contrary, it is deliberately vague and littered with bronze age folk tales.

And of course, the god of biblical genesis is not god in the original book from which the OT was selectively cloned, in that it was YHWH, The Elohim of Abraham.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Why do you keep trimming our discussions? Is it because it puts everything I write out of context?

The ark was afloat for around a year, but I was asking you why it was only two years according to the scriptures for the post-Flood geologic upheaveals, ice age(s), etc.

Either keep our whole thread of discussion together, so we can use reason together, or let's not talk anymore. Thanks for understanding.

I trim to eliminate extraneous material that does not contribute to the point-- the original is easily there for you to refer to, if you cannot remember.

Re: Ark--- I was being generous, and rounding up to 2 years. Only one year?

Absolutely destroys any possibility of the earth going from smooth to current rough mountainous shape.

The energy release to go from smooth to the present day mountains in only a year?

Would melt the earth and boil the oceans.....!

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You are thinking of Laban, not Noah. I discuss the Bible with many, but I prefer to argue with people who read and comprehend what they read!

Let's be serious, here: You actually believe that the earth was populated by incest-- twice.

That's a darn sight worse than which incestuous persons were involved in the immorality!

 

[ChristineM]

Quickly rising mountain ranges imply some vulcanism and meteor strikes--understand that some projections of same would be based on physics and others on the uniformitarian assumptions of modern "slow mountain" geology.

There were, like a few hundred to a few thousand people, who all heard from Grandpa Noah how and why it was all going down the way it was going down (or up, in this case)!

David, respectfully, you are making an argument from silence as well, which is all atheism is. If you wish God to speak to you . . . ask Him to do so.

A meteor strike big enough to create mountains would sterilise earth of all life.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

You require proof from me that there was no linear spacetime before there was space and light following the expansion of the BB singularity? You don't accept the commonly scientifically upheld views on this? Really?

No-- I require proof that your bible is accurate-- which you have yet to show.

In fact, there is zero supporting, historical evidence that shows your bible's stories are anything BUT simple myths and legends.

Not a single fossil, document nor dug-up village supports any of the OT stories, for example: no exodus, no noah flood, no smashing of Sodum, no falling of Jerico, no slaves suddenly let go in Egypt-- NONE OF THAT HAPPENED.

But that goes hand-in-glove with the NT, too-- not one corroborating document supports the Jesus legend either-- no historians wrote about him while he supposedly lived.

We have Roman records from that time, and place-- olive oil sales records and other trivial events.

But no census. No crucifixion of a Jewish rebel. None of the events recorded elsewhere.

So-- all you have is your bible itself. Which makes it your claim.


You cannot use your claim as proof.

 

[Polymath257]

I find it interesting that the pre-history era (the term given to pre-writing times) and the Flood times intersect. 195,000 years of nothing and then writing evolves simultaneously in multiple world regions?!

Well, the religions may well have existed prior to that. In fact, the cave paintings suggest that. Burial practices also suggest that.

Could it be that we only know of the details of multiple world religions because writing allowed us to learn about them?

 

[Polymath257]

Stories do grow in the telling, but not with heightened specificity and detail from an eyewitness testimony viewpoint. Gilgamesh and Genesis are like comparing Kindergarten with University. The Bible is ultra-specific in its recounting and details.

Asking again--are you familiar with the scholarship saying that in the Epic, the seeker is looking for the biblical Noah, his forefather?!

In the Epic, Gligamesh *finds* Utnapishtim. But it is clear you have never read the Epic. I encourage you to do so.

 

[Polymath257]

Meaning that we may be in motion or not be in motion--my point.

No. The point is that there is no difference.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

There's actually not a lot more to it, although I suppose I should call an NTS fallacy on you for redefining me as not a Jew. I was circumcised in my home, eight days after I was born, had a Jewish education and was Bar Mitzvah at a prominent synagogue.

A better way to look at it is this--most Jews don't believe the OT is the Word of God, either. So them telling us that Jesus failed to jump through hoops they imagine exist in the OT is a leap "of faith".

So you are Jewish in heritage only, but you reject something like 90% of the Jewish faith. Okay. Odd, but sure-- why not?

I do find it disingenuous of you to use someone else's book, and to basically re-state from what it actually says, changing into what you want it to say instead...

The OT is a Jewish book, first and foremost-- pardon me if I trust what they have to say about it, before I'll trust someone who's simply stolen it, then twists it's meaning into something entirely different (and opposite, most of the time)

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

At what time and place? Where did you date the Exodus in the Bible, and how?

I go by self-entitled "biblical scholars" and what they claim the dates were-- somewhere around 3000 to 4000 BCE. That puts the territories just North of the Reed (red) Sea under Egyptian control.

We know this from actual facts and archeological digs... (not the Exodus stuff-- that has nothing supporting it, but the Egyptian control of lands stuff).

If the Exodus has no archaeology to verify it, that does not negate the thousands of places, people and other facts verified by archaeology.

Yes-- I think? Exodus has absolutely NOTHING that supports what it claims to have happened-- no documents (apart from biblical, which do not count) no archeology, no dead cities, no cemetaries, no large areas where ancient humans traveled and camps (no trash pits-- which we do have of non-biblical peoples... )

One of the issues is you are seeking leftovers from a large group of people who were nomadic in tents rather than building homes in the Sinai... and so if you and I use our best tools to find a dig spot, we can be off by say, only a mile or a few hundred yards from a campsite, and find nothing.

Absolutely False! That time-and-place? Pottery was the "Plastic" of the Day. And pottery breaks, and is left behind. As are bones of animals eaten, or at least, of the camels and other domestic animals that would have died. But wait! They were supposedly at this for 40 years. That is two generations-- and infant mortality was very high back then-- roughly 1 in 2 infants died before puberty.

Where are the gravesites of the dead?

They do not exist-- because Exodus never happened.

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

So, you don't have any facts?

I have plenty-- but so far, we've been discussing your claims. Of which you have failed to show even one (1) supporting fact....

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

That's not "by the same logic". What is actually in force is the claim that around a certain time there was a worldwide apocalyptic catastrophe. You want instead to believe that writing was invented in multiple places around the same time after hundreds of thousands of years following the dawn of man. Occam's says you are leaping to extraordinary conclusions.

We have actual proof that writing was invented (and likely re-invented) multiple places around the planet.

Actual language analysis shows that the origins can trace back to different methodologies; indeed, the striking differences between Western writing and Eastern (Oriental) writing is quite telling, and pretty much eliminates any possibility they both arose at the same time and place.

Unless this "god" being is ... capricious? And deliberately and with malice, introduced two distinctly separate methodologies for writing?

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Stories do grow in the telling, but not with heightened specificity and detail from an eyewitness testimony viewpoint. Gilgamesh and Genesis are like comparing Kindergarten with University. The Bible is ultra-specific in its recounting and details.

Asking again--are you familiar with the scholarship saying that in the Epic, the seeker is looking for the biblical Noah, his forefather?!

So are the Gilgamesh legends. It's becoming quite clear you are commenting on a subject you are entirely unacquainted with...

 

[Bob the Unbeliever]

Quickly rising mountain ranges....

Stop. Just stop-- to create modern mountain ranges in less than a year, as your narrative requires?

Would melt the earth with the energy release... boil all the seas too... all life would be extinct.

Even volcanoes, the fastest mountain building force we know about, takes centuries...