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Evidence For And Against Evolution

leroy

Well-Known Member
It is not irrelevant. You are claiming that the existence of the designed from any designer supports claims of design where they is no evidence for design or any objective means to demonstrate design. Your entire argument is founded on logical fallacies and fails.

1 Specified complexity can only come from. A mind

2 life (say the first living thing) was specified and complex

Therefore life came from a mind,............... both of the premises are testable, and falsifiable, and there are good objective and scientific reasons to accept each of the premises
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
how so? When we have a sequence of such fossils showing a branching out of species with feathers, including some that are unquestionable dinosaurs and others that are unquestionably birds, all with similar skeletal anatomy, but changing with the ages of the fossils, what else are you wanting?
As I was writing an answer, I had to stop and reconsider. Because a time sequence of fossils would not necessarily show development. It would show different forms, but again similarity, such as feathers on a dinosaur fossil and feathers on a bird, but that is not evidence of evolution. Evolution in this case meaning things emerging -- because that's the way it is. Some might say it is, but--not necessarily or scientifically so. That is, imo, of course.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
That is why, the claim. Is that specified complexity ("not just complexity) indicates design
No, not "specified complexity". We do not observe that. Designed objects tend to be simpler. You won't find the plans for a semi truck air horn on a toddler's tricycle. But we do often find ancient non-functioning genes in life. What we see with life is that it is the product of natural evolution along with all of the drawbacks that accompany it. In fact the recurrent laryngeal nerve on the giraffe is pretty much an air horn on a tricycle. A signature of evolution and not design.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I think Behe was a charlatan, pure and simple.
I have read part of Darwin's Black Box and do not find he is charlatan so far. The irreducible complexity of the first socalled organism makes me wonder how people think it (life!) more or less came about, voila, like that. As I am researching, chemical elements themselves are not so simple. But naturally larger items are very complex. And...so far nothing to show these advanced complexities came about without having the ability to reproduce. Why do I say that in that manner? Because negative mutations, such as ... Lupus, multiple sclerosis, come about, that's for sure, but that, my friend, is where I stop until positive progress in these discussions come about. Evolve?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
1 Specified complexity can only come from. A mind

2 life (say the first living thing) was specified and complex

Therefore life came from a mind,............... both of the premises are testable, and falsifiable, and there are good objective and scientific reasons to accept each of the premises
No one has ever demonstrated that life has specified complexity. If anything the opposite has been shown to be the case.

And life may be complex,but specified is merely hand waving. Once again Hitchens takes care of your claim.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No, not "specified complexity". We do not observe that. Designed objects tend to be simpler. You won't find the plans for a semi truck air horn on a toddler's tricycle. But we do often find ancient non-functioning genes in life. What we see with life is that it is the product of natural evolution along with all of the drawbacks that accompany it. In fact the recurrent laryngeal nerve on the giraffe is pretty much an air horn on a tricycle. A signature of evolution and not design.

In my opinion life is analogous to languages, we do have some evolution, + some junk like redundant or useless letters.... But languages are at some level created by intelligent minds, and certainly one can not explain the origin of languages by pure random variation + selection
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No one has ever demonstrated that life has specified complexity. If anything the opposite has been shown to be the case.

And life may be complex,but specified is merely hand waving. Once again Hitchens takes care of your claim.

There are many combinations in which aminoacids can be organiced, and only one or few combinations would create funcional proteins (let alone self replicating proteins).... This by definition implies that life (self replicating proteins) are specified and complex.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
1 Specified complexity can only come from. A mind

2 life (say the first living thing) was specified and complex

Therefore life came from a mind,............... both of the premises are testable, and falsifiable, and there are good objective and scientific reasons to accept each of the premises

What do you mean "specified?" It sounds like it means intentionally designed. If so, then yes, you could claim an intender.
But what about just complexity per se? Sure, complexity can be designed, but it can also arise from simplicity; from growth, replication or simple algorithms.
The complexity of the first simple thing needed no more than chemistry.

This is an argument from incredulity.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
In my opinion life is analogous to languages, we do have some evolution, + some junk like redundant or useless letters.... But languages are at some level created by intelligent minds, and certainly one can not explain the origin of languages by pure random variation + selection
Are we talking evolution or abiogenesis?
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are many combinations in which aminoacids can be organiced, and only one or few combinations would create funcional proteins (let alone self replicating proteins).... This by definition implies that life (self replicating proteins) are specified and complex.
It implies that natural selection has been at work, culling dysfunctional patterns or programs and allowing useful ones to replicate themselves through reproduction.
Our proteins aren't self-replicating, by the way.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
There are many combinations in which aminoacids can be organiced, and only one or few combinations would create funcional proteins (let alone self replicating proteins).... This by definition implies that life (self replicating proteins) are specified and complex.
It implies that natural selection has been at work, culling dysfunctional patterns or programs and allowing useful ones to replicate themselves through reproduction.
Our proteins aren't self-replicating, by the way.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
My being here right now is to discuss evolution and ask questions. I doubt that you can verify (ok, not prove, a word that seems to be verboten in these discussions, so verify is supposedly a better term) the actual mechanisms of the micro or macro changes said to have happened. If so, please let me know. Using specimens of these micro or macro changes evidenced in fossils. Simply saying "yes, dinosaurs became birds because fossils show feathers in a dinosaur" is not verifying, confirming or showing evidence that there were micro changes. It is presumption.
There are always micro changes: reproductive variation, mutation, epigenetic switching, &c, and lots of tiny changes accumulate into big changes.

English and Russian very different, and these Indo-European languages got that way with lots of micro changes, with no speaker ever speaking a different language from his parents or grandparents.

You're not going to find fossilized DNA or genes. What we do have is a step-by-step series of anatomical changes from dinosaurs to modern animals.

We do?[/QUOTE Haven't you been listening? Haven't you been reading or watching links? This has been answered a hundred times all over RF.
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Of course the question does come up with medical experts regarding penile implants and scrotum. Something they are considering the possibility of. And, of course, transplanted embryos. Obviously not natural selection.
Huh????
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
In my opinion life is analogous to languages, we do have some evolution, + some junk like redundant or useless letters.... But languages are at some level created by intelligent minds, and certainly one can not explain the origin of languages by pure random variation + selection
I realize that some philosophers conjecture that somehow mankind figured out languages with words and writing. As if by necessity. I can't figure how they figure, but then, that's what I've learned, i.e., that some figure there was a 'need,' and so humans figured these things out (evolved somehow into language). Meaning that it is, imo, impossible for mankind to have figured out by itself (no matter what imaginings men come up with) reading, writing, and language(s). Impossible. No matter what reasons they give for it. Impossible.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Let me try again. If someone has his "own" dna in most of his body but then accepts a penile transplant with scrotum and can reproduce, would you call that "natural selection"? Do you understand the question now?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
There are always micro changes: reproductive variation, mutation, epigenetic switching, &c, and lots of tiny changes accumulate into big changes.

English and Russian very different, and these Indo-European languages got that way with lots of micro changes, with no speaker ever speaking a different language from his parents or grandparents.

You're not going to find fossilized DNA or genes. What we do have is a step-by-step series of anatomical changes from dinosaurs to modern animals.
You mean it's a made-up step-by-step series of anatomical changes. There is no substantial and verifiable 'evidence' to demonstrate that the series of anatomical changes came about as said by seen or observed micro biological 'in the body' changes. None whatsoever. And that is what I have learned after asking for more than opinion. Again -- you are merely saying something with no (proof, I mean--) evidence.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
That is only true, if there is a step by step path of benefitial mutations.

Given that such a path has not been proven to excist in flagella, eyes, ears and most systems, I feel that I have the right to be skeptical about Darwinism
You don't believe in natural selection? How do you explain selective breeding, peppered moths, tube mosquitoes, ring species?
Did we always have poodles, insulin secreting bacteria and maize on earth?

The mechanism works. What alternative are you proposing?
 
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Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Let me try again. If someone has his "own" dna in most of his body but then accepts a penile transplant with scrotum and can reproduce, would you call that "natural selection"? Do you understand the question now?
I don't understand any of this. What are we talking about here?
Altering gross anatomy isn't going to affect the gametes.

Children from a transplanted testis will be the genetic offspring of the original donor. What does any of this have to do with the OP?
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
1 how so? What would convince you for example that life (say the first living thing) was designed?

2 all I have to claim is that the existance of a designer that predates life on earth is possible..... Would you claim that it is impossible for a designer to excist? (ether a god, or Alien?)

3 you are asking me to prove a negative, which is impossible,....

4 No, whether if the designer is the God of the Bible, some other God or an Alien is beyond the scope of the ID argument.
A nothing response. How unexpected.

Not.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
You don't believe in natural selection? How do you explain selective breeding, peppered moths, tube mosquitoes, ring species?
Did we always have poodles, insulin secreting bacteria and maize on earth?

The mechanism works. What alternative are you proposes?
Magic.
 
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