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Evidence For And Against Evolution

night912

Well-Known Member
For another thing, some of those who survive are clearly not the fittest. Obese people get to stay alive and drink beer, while our fittest? They go to war to be killed. Lest you think this is humans only, the biggest fish tend to be caught, while the weakest and smallest tend to survive.
That's where you're wrong. The obese people survives to pass down their genes. The change in environment, or in this case, situation of war, cause pressure to the population. They adapt to surviving war by not dying in war and survived because of their obesity.:D

Jokes aside, that was a good analogy of "survival of the fittest," or evolution, especially the fish. Here, say if it like you said, the smaller fish adapted to being smaller resulting in becoming quicker, so better at escaping predator. Another might be having a smaller mouth, therefore less likely to be hooked on by fishing hooks. Even being "weaker," may be more beneficial because striking weaker at the bait on a hook is less likely of getting hooked and being caught. So the smaller fish was more "fit for survival," than the bigger fish. The evolved based on their environment. No adaptation is independently "superior" to another. It is dependent on the organism and its environment. An animal having a thin coat of fur may be more beneficial than having a thick coat in a desert with a hot environment, but is unfavorable in a desert with a cold environment.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
It's My Birthday!
That's where you're wrong. The obese people survives to pass down their genes. The change in environment, or in this case, situation of war, cause pressure to the population. They adapt to surviving war by not dying in war and survived because of their obesity.:D

Jokes aside, that was a good analogy of "survival of the fittest," or evolution, especially the fish. Here, say if it like you said, the smaller fish adapted to being smaller resulting in becoming quicker, so better at escaping predator. Another might be having a smaller mouth, therefore less likely to be hooked on by fishing hooks. Even being "weaker," may be more beneficial because striking weaker at the bait on a hook is less likely of getting hooked and being caught. So the smaller fish was more "fit for survival," than the bigger fish. The evolved based on their environment. No adaptation is independently "superior" to another. It is dependent on the organism and its environment. An animal having a thin coat of fur may be more beneficial than having a thick coat in a desert with a hot environment, but is unfavorable in a desert with a cold environment.
I wonder how penguins will do in a warmer environment.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
Yet, despite interpretation, how someone says that life came up without design, or a purpose, from somewhere unknown but conjectured about, as if that can ever be proved unless there were spy cameras, is beyond me.
That's a good point, especially when it's information that one recently heard, and that's a part of being a skeptic. But a skeptic will also do this, critically think about it and come to the conclusion of, there was also no spy cameras back when god supposedly created the universe, so both shouldn't be accepted as being true until further study is done. That's the first step. Next, the skeptic would be to ask oneself, since there was no spy cameras back then, do I honestly know that life was designed or not designed? Being honest to oneself, the answer would be, I don't know if life was designed or not, so further research needs to be done.
 

night912

Well-Known Member
I wonder how penguins will do in a warmer environment.
Well, wonder no more. Just go search on Google and YouTube and you will see what penguins do in a warm environment. Remember, those are actually videos recorded using a camera. Maybe even some spy cameras.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Translation - unable to respond to the post. Still waiting . . .

Respond? To what,? quite frankly I haven't been capable of finding any point of disagreement with you (on the topic of Protein folding and mutations ),

Moreless 50% of the stuff that you have said about protein folding are things that I agree with, and the remaining 50% seem to be to be random and unrelated comments

But I'll tell you what, instead of me asking questions about your position and the view that you hold, why don't you find a point of disagreement and I will try to defend my position.



Actually no. The mutations, of protein folding are either present or not in the diversity in the population. If they are there they are available for potential benefits for natural selection. For example if the genetic variation for the light sensitive cell is present in the population of Jellyfish or it is not. If it is and has a benefit for survival it will be selected for that benefit, If the light sensitive cell is not present it will not be selected for in future generations. This is not a random 'process' as previously cited in scientific references.

Yes agree, and even extremely fanatic YEC would agree with that

The question what caused the light sensitive cells in jellyfish in the first place? , random mutations or through non random genetic changes ? (or perhaps the answer is "we don't know" )

Preventing semantic games, this is what I mean by random mutation

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DNA and Mutations :

Mutations are random

Mutations can be beneficial, neutral, or harmful for the organism, but mutations do not "try" to supply what the organism "needs." Factors in the environment may influence the rate of mutation but are not generally thought to influence the direction of mutation. For example, exposure to harmful chemicals may increase the mutation rate, but will not cause more mutations that make the organism resistant to those chemicals. In this respect, mutations are random — whether a particular mutation happens or not is unrelated to how useful that mutation would be
Mutations are random
.




Direct and specific answers have been provided. Your avoiding the specific references and my answers. You already misrepresented one source you cited, which contains NO MATH to support your assertions, as I specifically cited. Still waiting . . .

Ok it is a good start, so exactly what was my asertion? Why do you disagree with such asertion? and how did I misrepresented the article.?

Again . . .

You need to deal with more sound science in the references I cited and try to understand them. The folding is constrained by Natural Laws, and natural processes to the point it is not random.

Agree, that folding is not random has always been my point (using my definition of random)



Mutations and folding only provide the genetic drift and diversity in the population, which is available for natural selection
Yes





Absolutely false. All mutations that are not damaging to the survival provide the diversity in the populations and genetic drift
Yes agree

I am on the side of science. No, we do not remotely agree, and there are many many flaws in Behe's and your view of the role and nature of mutations and the concept of randomness not only in the sciences of abiogenesis and evolution but all of nature as the contemporary science supports.

Ok, please let me know what are our points if disagreement

The 'elephant in the room' and the biggest flaw in Behe's work and your view is the horrendous and unethical misuse of 'statistics and probability' to justify an ID religious agenda.

Granted, if mutations and foldings are not random then any use of statistics would be flawed.

So are they random? (using my definition of random)
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Golly gee. Back in the old days, people who really wanted answers would go to libraries and do their own research or would go to schools and get taught by trained educators.
The thing is that I am asking questions related to their personal views.

When I ask specific questions on whether if they accept or reject a claim people like @Subduction Zone @Dan From Smithville @shunyadragon etc tend to avoid direct answers.

For example if I ask: do you claim that hhe process of random mutations and natural selection is the main cause of the diversity of life,.... Chances say that I will not get a direct answer.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The main issue I can see is that the known examples of NGE can only select from mutations that have already 'been tried' in the sense that they had already appeared in the population at a frequency that allows the development of a feedback mechanism. This type of feedback, while an extreme, is perfectly allowed under the standard model.

On the other hand, what you will require is a mechanism to detect potentially beneficial mutations that have never occurred yet. That is the sort that would be required if you want to explain structures like the eye using this process. But this is precisely where there is no mechanism.

Because of this, I feel the NGE is a red-herring. it has nothing to do with the topic at hand, but is instead a minor variant of the standard theory.
Mutations that have never occured in the population have been shown to occur by NGE, (for example resistance to an antibiotic).........

The advantage of these type of mechanisms is that complex machinarry that require multiple codependent "stuff" can arise by this mechanism in 1 or few generations. This makes these types of mechanisms better candidates for the evolution of eyes, flagella, ears etc.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
How are they testable? Set it up for us. Use nylonase as an example. With average life expectancies what they are these days, you have roughly 25 years to dodge it before my demise.
Again what is your point with nylonaise?


Given that you only need 2 mutations, nylonaise would not fit the definition of specified complexity therefore one can't infer that nylonaise is a product of design

This is like typing 2 random letters, and actually type a meaningful word. This is possible, chance can do it.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Again, duck and dodge. I'm quite sure that you understood my comment referred to the fact that Hindus, like you, believe their gods are the real and true gods.

Why did you avoid responding to that?
My response is simply that Hindus are wrong, bcacsyse there are no good reasons to accept the existance of hindu gods
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
The question what caused the light sensitive cells in jellyfish in the first place?

The genetic diversity caused by the possible variations of the mutations. The chemical nature of of the precursor cells determined the potential that mutations would result in light sensitive cells. This is true throughout the evolution of life. There are hundreds of thousands at least for the mutations that result in the genetic diversity to result in the light sensitive cells.

, random mutations or through non random genetic changes ? (or perhaps the answer is "we don't know" ) [/quote]

The random and non-random mutations only contribute to the genetic diversity that leads to natural selection. The possible benefit of of the genetic diversity determines the result of natural selection

Preventing semantic games, this is what I mean by random mutation

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DNA and Mutations :

.

All this shows is yes the timing of the individual mutations are random. So what? This only contributes to the genetic diversity over time, and does not determine the outcome of natural selection.

Ok it is a good start, so exactly what was my assertion? Why do you disagree with such assertion? and how did I misrepresented the article.?

The article as cited contains absolutely no reference to the math that you claimed that justifies the probability figures used by Behe to determine evolution is very unlikely.





Ok, please let me know what are our points if disagreement

Granted, if mutations and foldings are not random then any use of statistics would be flawed.

So are they random? (using my definition of random)

Again and again individual mutations and foldings are random as far as their timing, but the process over time is not random. The misuse of statistics and probability by Behe assumes the process is random over time. The process over time is not random.

Your argument that non-random mutations are the cause of the genetic diversity and genetic drift. ALL mutations, that are not detrimental contribute to the genetic diversity and genetic drift that leads to natural selection.
 
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leroy

Well-Known Member
That's a really sad unresponsive comment. You must be trying to avoid admitting that all "other" gods are man's fabrications while clinging to the idea the "your" god is actually something more. That must require a lot of rationalizing on your part.

No I am not avoiding anything. Except for "my God (the Christian God) " I would say that other gods are false man made fabrications, or man made aberrations of the true God.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
What's the probability of your existence? YOU would not be YOU if any other of the 100,000,000 sperm your father ejaculated that fateful day made it's way to the egg first. There might be someone very much like you, but it would not be you.

Would you care to do the math back a few generations? The bottom line is that the possibility of your existence is essentially zero. Yet, here you are, droning on about possibilities.

Yes but there is nothing special about me being born, there is not and independently given pattern, therefore the requirement of specified complexity is not meat. Therefore you can say that I was born by chance.
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
Yes. You have that correct. He is wrong on all three as everyone has shown you. But don't let us stop you, when you are in a good denial.
The point is that these are mutually exclusive, you can't say that behe was refuted and that Behe's claims are unfalsifiable, it would be ether one or the other
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
I am not going on a wild goose hunt doing your homework.
You made the claim.
Support it or have it discarded as the bold empty claim it thus far is.

I am just accepting the conclusions of the article because I trust the peer review process, obviously I do not understand the math of the paper, I am just assuming that the author is correct, but you are free to read the paper look at the math and let us know if you disagree with the author of the paper.


The conclusion of the paper is that most possible foldings (10^77 /1) don't have a function, as any lay person should do, I am simply assuming that the conclusion of a peer review paper is correct
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
No, that is NOT what he did. he used the same active site and the same basic length of the string of amino acids and determined how many variants of that form would give the same functionality.

That is NOT the same as looking at all possible proteins that could do something similar, but not the same. It assumed a certain active site, where potentially many others would give some sort of functionality. It assumed the folding had to be roughly similar to that of the original protein.

The actual collection of *potential* proteins is much, much larger. This article was only looking for those similar in 'shape' to the original.

Granted, but the author showed that the vast, vast majority of foldings are not functional

Do you agree with this point?
 

gnostic

The Lost One
What exactly their claims are, I do not know. But they figured life in the form of humans did not always exist. Now how long ago did these other civilizations exist, such as the Egyptians, and those from Vedic/Hinduism? As far back as the Neanderthals?

If you want to talk about civilizations, why would you even bother to bring up the Neanderthals?

Because there are no civilizations when the Neanderthals were around. And no Neanderthals when civilizations began appearing.

Aren’t you being absurd bringing up such silly questions?
 

leroy

Well-Known Member
The genetic diversity caused by the possible variations of the mutations. The chemical nature of of the precursor cells determined the potential that mutations would result in light sensitive cells. This is true throughout the evolution of life. There are hundreds of thousands at least for the mutations that result in the genetic diversity to result in the light sensitive cells.

, random mutations or through non random genetic changes ? (or perhaps the answer is "we don't know" )

The random and non-random mutations only contribute to the genetic diversity that leads to natural selection. The possible benefit of of the genetic diversity determines the result of natural selection



All this shows is yes the timing of the individual mutations are random. So what? This only contributes to the genetic diversity over time, and does not determine the outcome of natural selection.



The article as cited contains absolutely no reference to the math that you claimed that justifies the probability figures used by Behe to determine evolution is very unlikely.



Again and again individual mutations and foldings are random as far as their timing, but the process over time is not random. The misuse of statistics and probability by Behe assumes the process is random over time. The process over time is not random.

Your argument that non-random mutations are the cause of the genetic diversity and genetic drift. ALL mutations, that are not detrimental contribute to the genetic diversity and genetic drift that leads to natural selection.[/QUOTE]


Ok do both random and non random mutations supplied the diversity that was later selected by natural selection........ See we do have points of agreement

The article as cited contains absolutely no reference to the math that you claimed that justifies the probability figures used by Behe to determine evolution is very unlikely.

Behe's critique applies only for those who claim that the diversity was supplied by just random mutations...... But that is not you, so feel free to ignore Behe.



So far, we don't seem to have points of disagreement with respecto to foldings and mutations,
 

shunyadragon

shunyadragon
Premium Member
Interesting article on randomness and Chaos Theory (fractal relationships in processes with many variable) and evolution.

The chaos theory of evolution

Forget finding the laws of evolution. The history of life is just one damn thing after another

This is a long-running debate. In 1972, for example, Niles Eldredge and Stephen Jay Gould challenged the assumption that evolutionary change was continuous and gradual. Their “punctuated equilibrium” hypothesis argued that change happens in short bursts separated by long periods of stability, as distinct from the more continuous change over long periods expected to be the outcome of natural selection and adaptation.

Later, John Endler, an evolutionary biologist at the University of Exeter, UK, scrutinised claimed examples of natural selection but found a surprising lack of hard evidence (chronicled in his 1986 book Natural Selection in the Wild). More recently, and controversially, cognitive scientists Jerry Fodor of Rutgers University at New Brunswick, New Jersey, and Massimo Piattelli-Palmarini of the University of Arizona in Tucson have pointed out philosophical problems with the adaptationist argument (New Scientist, 6 February, p 28).

Palaeoecologists like me are now bringing a new perspective to the problem. If macroevolution really is an extrapolation of natural selection and adaptation, we would expect to see environmental change driving evolutionary change. Major climatic events such as ice ages ought to leave their imprint on life as species adapt to the new conditions. Is that what actually happens?

Our understanding of global environmental change is vastly more detailed than it was in Lyell and Darwin’s time. James Zachos at the University of California, Santa Cruz, and colleagues, have shown that the Earth has been on a long-term cooling trend for the past 65 million years (Science, vol 292, p 686). Superimposed upon this are oscillations in climate every 20,000, 40,000 and 100,000 years caused by wobbles in the Earth’s orbit.

Over the past 2 million years – the Quaternary period – these oscillations have increased in amplitude and global climate has lurched between periods of glaciation and warmer interglacials. The big question is, how did life respond to these climatic changes? In principle, three types of evolutionary response are possible: stasis, extinction, or evolutionary change. What do we actually see?

To answer that question we look to the fossil record. We now have good data covering the past 2 million years and excellent data on the past 20,000 years. We can also probe evolutionary history with the help of both modern and ancient DNA.

The highly detailed record of the past 20,000 years comes from analyses of fossilised tree pollen from lake and peat sediments. Tree pollen is generally recognisable to the level of genus, sometimes even species, and the sediments in which it is found can easily be radiocarbon dated.

In the 1970s and 1980s, palaeoecologist Margaret Davis at the University of Minnesota in Minneapolis created a map using this data which showed how North American tree taxa reached their respective present positions after the glaciers retreated at the end of the last ice age.

She found that the distribution shifts were individualistic, with huge variations between species in the rate, time and direction of spread. For example, larch spread from south-west to north-east, white pine from south-east to north-west. Rates vary from 100 metres a year to over 1000 metres (Annals of the Missouri Botanical Garden, vol 70, p 550). In other words, trees show no predictable response to climate change, and respond individually rather than as communities of species.

The fossil record also tells us that the make-up of modern forest communities differs from those of 20,000 years ago. Today we recognise various types of forest, such as boreal, deciduous and aspen parkland, each with a distinctive mix of tree species. Yet the fossil record tells us that these are just temporary groupings. Multi-species communities do not have long histories and do not shift their distributions in a coordinated way in response to climate changes, as Darwin supposed. We therefore cannot assume that the members of modern forest communities evolved together or are somehow dependent on each other.

The same appears to be true over longer timescales. Pollen data show that during earlier interglacial periods, when the climate was most similar to now, forest compositions were very different from today.

Research on animals has come to similarly unexpected conclusions, albeit based on sparser fossil records. For example, palaeontologist Russell Graham at Illinois State Museum has looked at North American mammals and palaeontologist Russell Coope at the University of Birmingham in the UK has examined insects (Annual Review of Ecology and Systematics, vol 10, p 247). Both studies show that most species remain unchanged for hundreds of thousands of years, perhaps longer, and across several ice ages. Species undergo major changes in distribution and abundance, but show no evolution of morphological characteristics despite major environmental changes.

That is not to say that major evolutionary change such as speciation doesn’t happen. But recent “molecular clock” research suggests the link between speciation and environmental change is weak at best.

Die hard
Molecular clock approaches allow us to estimate when two closely related modern species split from a common ancestor by comparing their DNA. Most of this work has been carried out in birds, and shows that new species appear more or less continuously, regardless of the dramatic climatic oscillations of the Quaternary or the longer term cooling that preceded it (Trends in Ecology and Evolution, vol 20, p 57).

What of extinction? Of course, species have gone extinct during the past 20,000 years. However, almost all examples involve some degree of human activity, either directly (think dodos) or indirectly (large mammals at the end of the last ice age, 12,000 years ago).

In fact, we only know of one recent extinction with no human involvement – a species of spruce, Picea critchfieldii, which was common in the lower Mississippi valley at the height of the last ice age but died out 12,000 years ago (Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences, vol 96, p 13847). Others undoubtedly occurred, but extinction appears to be a surprisingly rare response to substantial climatic changes (see diagram).

The overall picture is that the main response to major environmental changes is individualistic movement and changes in abundance, rather than extinction or speciation. In other words, the connection between environmental change and evolutionary change is weak, which is not what might have been expected from Darwin’s hypothesis.

“The link between environmental change and evolutionary change is weak – not what Darwinists might have predicted”

If environmental changes as substantial as continent-wide glaciations do not force evolutionary change, then what does? It is hard to see how adaptation by natural selection during lesser changes might then accumulate and lead to macroevolution.

I suggest that the true source of macroevolutionary change lies in the non-linear, or chaotic, dynamics of the relationship between genotype and phenotype – the actual organism and all its traits. The relationship is non-linear because phenotype, or set of observable characteristics, is determined by a complex interplay between an organism’s genes – tens of thousands of them, all influencing one another’s behaviour – and its environment.

Not only is the relationship non-linear, it also changes all the time. Mutations occur continually, without external influence, and can be passed on to the next generation. A change of a single base of an organism’s DNA might have no consequence, because that section of DNA still codes for the same amino acid. Alternatively, it might cause a significant change in the offspring’s physiology or morphology, or it might even be fatal. In other words, a single small change can have far-reaching and unpredictable effects – the hallmark of a non-linear system.

Iterating these unpredictable changes over hundreds or thousands of generations will inevitably lead to evolutionary changes in addition to any that come about by the preferential survival of certain phenotypes. It follows that macroevolution may, over the longer-term, be driven largely by internally generated genetic change, not adaptation to a changing environment.

The evolution of life has many characteristics that are typical of non-linear systems. First, it is deterministic: changes in one part of the system, such as the mutation of a DNA base, directly cause other changes. However, the change is unpredictable. Just like the weather, changes are inexorable but can only be followed with the benefit of hindsight.

Second, behaviour of the system is sensitive to initial conditions. We see this in responses to glaciations in the Quaternary period. The exact circumstances of the beginning of each interglacial determine the development of the whole period, leading to unpredictable differences between interglacials (Quaternary Science Reviews, vol 14, p 967).

Third, the history of life is fractal. Take away the labelling from any portion of the tree of life and we cannot tell at which scale we are looking (see diagram). This self-similarity also indicates that evolutionary change is a process of continual splitting of the branches of the tree.

Fourth, we cannot rewind, as Stephen Jay Gould argued in Wonderful Life. Were we to turn the evolutionary clock back to any point in the past, and let it run again, the outcome would be different. As in weather systems, the initial conditions can never be specified to sufficient precision to prevent divergence of subsequent trajectories.

Life on Earth is always unique, changing, and unpredictable. Even if certain patterns can be dimly discerned, our ability to do so diminishes with time, exactly as for the weather. Consider any moment of the geological record of life on Earth: to what extent were the changes of the next 10 or 100 million years predictable at that time? With the benefit of hindsight, we might be able to understand what happened, and construct a plausible narrative for those events, but we have no foresight.

This view of life leads to certain consequences. Macroevolution is not the simple accumulation of microevolutionary changes but has its own processes and patterns. There can be no “laws” of evolution. We may be able to reconstruct the sequence of events leading to the evolution of any given species or group after the fact, but we will not be able to generalise from these to other sequences of events. From a practical point of view, this means we will be unable to predict how species will respond to projected climate changes over next century.

Read more: The chaos theory of evolution
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
The thing is that I am asking questions related to their personal views.

When I ask specific questions on whether if they accept or reject a claim people like @Subduction Zone @Dan From Smithville @shunyadragon etc tend to avoid direct answers.

For example if I ask: do you claim that hhe process of random mutations and natural selection is the main cause of the diversity of life,.... Chances say that I will not get a direct answer.
Hilarious! You avoid answering questions like they were the plague.
 

Dan From Smithville

The Flying Elvises, Utah Chapter
Staff member
Premium Member
Again what is your point with nylonaise?


Given that you only need 2 mutations, nylonaise would not fit the definition of specified complexity therefore one can't infer that nylonaise is a product of design

This is like typing 2 random letters, and actually type a meaningful word. This is possible, chance can do it.
You do not even understand the concepts you are attempting to bandy about and never respond to requests to demonstrate your claims using examples.I

All living things are supposed to be explained by specified complexity.
 
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