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Evidence For And Against Evolution

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You really need to quit grasping at straws. This is not an honest way to approach this article. I need to repeat that you are trying to avoid learning.
Learning what? That you're making a big deal about Darwin's "surmise" that gorillas are the ancestors of humans genetically speaking of course, because why, they look like humans to some, moreso than birds? That's what I'm learning. You want me to learn without analyzing their words. And just accepting what the surmisers have to say. And by surmisers, I don't mean those that analyze DNA or decide that chimpanzees "share" 99% of DNA with humans. So?
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
My "source" that says "guess" as a definition for surmise is the Cambridge Dictionary. So yes, I agree with you, if you're going to make a big deal about surmise or guess then I guess-suppose-figure we better stop. But thank you for whatever discussion we have had, and I also guess-recognize-realize you really don't want to discuss it.
Merriam Webster Dictionary for "surmise" -

Definition of surmise
(Entry 1 of 2)

: a thought or idea based on scanty evidence : CONJECTURE

SCANTY EVIDENCE. CONJECTURE. Conjecture: form an opinion or supposition about (something) on the basis of incomplete information.
Correct, not a "guess". A conclusion drawn on scanty evidence. A guess is made without evidence. But that was at Darwin's time and he admitted that fact.

Why do you have a problem with honesty? Why did you improperly try to tar him with a pejorative?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
You really need to quit grasping at straws. This is not an honest way to approach this article. I need to repeat that you are trying to avoid learning.
It seems you didn't like that I repeated the statements of the author to say that gorillas TRAIL by 1% behind chimpanzees and bonobos the sharing of human DNA. I was willing to go on, but you made a big deal about surmise/guess and 98 or 99% sharing of DNA, either trailing as the author stated, or my statement that gorillas shared only 98%. (So be it.)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Learning what? That you're making a big deal about Darwin's "surmise" that gorillas are the ancestors of humans genetically speaking of course, because why, they look like humans to some, moreso than birds? That's what I'm learning. You want me to learn without analyzing their words. And just accepting what the surmisers have to say. And by surmisers, I don't mean those that analyze DNA or decide that chimpanzees "share" 99% of DNA with humans. So?
I am trying to keep you honest. So far you are not succeeding at what you said that you would do. Please note that at Darwin's time the evidence indicated that we were apes, but it was incomplete. That is all. Darwin admitted that. I admit that at that time it was incomplete.

We have to deal with this properly from the start, otherwise you are going to be chasing straws all over the place.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It seems you didn't like that I repeated the statements of the author to say that gorillas TRAIL by 1% behind chimpanzees and bonobos the sharing of human DNA. I was willing to go on, but you made a big deal about surmise/guess and 98 or 99% sharing of DNA, either trailing as the author stated, or my statement that gorillas shared only 98%. (So be it.)

No, I understand that. You don't. You won't let yourself understand that which is rather disappointing. I would like a creationist some day to disprove the adage "there is no informed and honest creationist, one may have an honest creationist, but he has to be ignorant, or one may have an informed creationist, but he had to be dishonest". I would like you to show that to be wrong.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Correct, not a "guess". A conclusion drawn on scanty evidence. A guess is made without evidence. But that was at Darwin's time and he admitted that fact.

Why do you have a problem with honesty? Why did you improperly try to tar him with a pejorative?
No, a guess is not always made without evidence, or a basis for the guess. That's what surmise is. A guess. Same as conjecture. I gave you and him the edge when I asked as I was reading if his guess-surmise was authenticated, because why did he surmise that?
Not even your source says that it is a guess. If you are going to make obviously false claims we cannot go on. I thought that you were going to try to learn. So far your questions shows that you are trying not to learn.
Did you read the definitions? Cambridge says it's a GUESS. So you want to make a big deal out of it? Something tells me you are the one not being honest, since you want to concentrate on the fact that surmise is not a guess. But dictionaries say different. For instance,
"To surmise is to form an opinion or make a guess about something. If you surmise that something is true, you don't have much evidence or knowledge about it. Near synonyms are guess, conjecture, and suppose."
surmise - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › surmise

Furthermore, now that you've started on this, I ask you, Darwin based his "surmise" on what evidence? That gorillas looked like humans and were walking almost in a humanoid way? WHAT EVIDENCE DID HE HAVE FOR HIS SURMISE? Here's another definition of SURMISE: (It's not figuring genomes yet.)

surmise
  1. Thought, imagination, or conjecture, which may be based upon feeble or scanty evidence; suspicion; guess.
What was Darwin's SCANTY FEEBLE EVIDENCE????? (Guess, surmise?)
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
I am trying to keep you honest. So far you are not succeeding at what you said that you would do. Please note that at Darwin's time the evidence indicated that we were apes, but it was incomplete. That is all. Darwin admitted that. I admit that at that time it was incomplete.

We have to deal with this properly from the start, otherwise you are going to be chasing straws all over the place.
How did the evidence indicate at that time that we were apes? What EVIDENCE????? Why are you making such a big issue over the use of surmise or guess?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
No, I understand that. You don't. You won't let yourself understand that which is rather disappointing. I would like a creationist some day to disprove the adage "there is no informed and honest creationist, one may have an honest creationist, but he has to be ignorant, or one may have an informed creationist, but he had to be dishonest". I would like you to show that to be wrong.
Once again, I said "only" 98%, while the author said that the gorilla with 98% of the human DNA trailed behind the 99% of the chimpanzee. (shrug. So?) Did the author say the gorilla trailed behind the 99% shared DNA of the chimpanzee? So the gorilla TRAILED BEHIND by 1%. :)
Oh, yes, and I'm trying to learn slowly by asking questions and making comments, which you seem to not want. You want me to swallow what evolutionists are saying without analyzing the information presented. Maybe we can go on. I say this hopefully, but we'll see. Now you stopped me. And so I ask: what EVIDENCE did Darwin have or use to make his claim that humans most likely - probably - maybe - possibly - likely - however you want to say it -- evolved from gorillas????????????????????? (Even though studies proved that gorillas "trailed behind" the DNA said to be shared by chimpanzees and bonobos.) Again, what evidence did Darwin go by at that time?
 
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ImmortalFlame

Woke gremlin
And so I ask: what EVIDENCE did Darwin have or use to make his claim that humans most likely - probably - maybe - possibly - likely - however you want to say it -- evolved from gorillas????????????????????? (Even though studies proved that gorillas "trailed behind" the DNA said to be shared by chimpanzees and bonobos.) Again, what evidence did Darwin go by at that time?
When and where did Charles Darwin assert that humans evolved from gorillas?
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
"In 1871 Charles Darwin surmised that humans were evolutionarily closer to the African apes than to any other species alive."
So that means that Darwin guessed (surmised) humans were evolutionarily closer to the African apes than any other species alive. Maybe his guess didn't work out. Let's see.

I forget now who originally posted these on this forum, but I keep it in my archives because it offers a nice 'linear' progression of testing a methodology and then applying it - I have posted this more than a dozen times for creationists who claim that there is no evidence for evolution:

The tested methodology:


Science 25 October 1991:
Vol. 254. no. 5031, pp. 554 - 558

Gene trees and the origins of inbred strains of mice

WR Atchley and WM Fitch

Extensive data on genetic divergence among 24 inbred strains of mice provide an opportunity to examine the concordance of gene trees and species trees, especially whether structured subsamples of loci give congruent estimates of phylogenetic relationships. Phylogenetic analyses of 144 separate loci reproduce almost exactly the known genealogical relationships among these 24 strains. Partitioning these loci into structured subsets representing loci coding for proteins, the immune system and endogenous viruses give incongruent phylogenetic results. The gene tree based on protein loci provides an accurate picture of the genealogical relationships among strains; however, gene trees based upon immune and viral data show significant deviations from known genealogical affinities.

======================

Science, Vol 255, Issue 5044, 589-592

Experimental phylogenetics: generation of a known phylogeny

DM Hillis, JJ Bull, ME White, MR Badgett, and IJ Molineux
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Although methods of phylogenetic estimation are used routinely in comparative biology, direct tests of these methods are hampered by the lack of known phylogenies. Here a system based on serial propagation of bacteriophage T7 in the presence of a mutagen was used to create the first completely known phylogeny. Restriction-site maps of the terminal lineages were used to infer the evolutionary history of the experimental lines for comparison to the known history and actual ancestors. The five methods used to reconstruct branching pattern all predicted the correct topology but varied in their predictions of branch lengths; one method also predicts ancestral restriction maps and was found to be greater than 98 percent accurate.

==================================

Science, Vol 264, Issue 5159, 671-677

Application and accuracy of molecular phylogenies

DM Hillis, JP Huelsenbeck, and CW Cunningham
Department of Zoology, University of Texas, Austin 78712.

Molecular investigations of evolutionary history are being used to study subjects as diverse as the epidemiology of acquired immune deficiency syndrome and the origin of life. These studies depend on accurate estimates of phylogeny. The performance of methods of phylogenetic analysis can be assessed by numerical simulation studies and by the experimental evolution of organisms in controlled laboratory situations. Both kinds of assessment indicate that existing methods are effective at estimating phylogenies over a wide range of evolutionary conditions, especially if information about substitution bias is used to provide differential weightings for character transformations.​


We can hereby CONCLUDE that the results of an application of those methods have merit.


Application of the tested methodology:


Implications of natural selection in shaping 99.4% nonsynonymous DNA identity between humans and chimpanzees: Enlarging genus Homo

"Here we compare ≈90 kb of coding DNA nucleotide sequence from 97 human genes to their sequenced chimpanzee counterparts and to available sequenced gorilla, orangutan, and Old World monkey counterparts, and, on a more limited basis, to mouse. The nonsynonymous changes (functionally important), like synonymous changes (functionally much less important), show chimpanzees and humans to be most closely related, sharing 99.4% identity at nonsynonymous sites and 98.4% at synonymous sites. "



Mitochondrial Insertions into Primate Nuclear Genomes Suggest the Use of numts as a Tool for Phylogeny

"Moreover, numts identified in gorilla Supercontigs were used to test the human–chimp–gorilla trichotomy, yielding a high level of support for the sister relationship of human and chimpanzee."



A Molecular Phylogeny of Living Primates

"Once contentiously debated, the closest human relative of chimpanzee (Pan) within subfamily Homininae (Gorilla, Pan, Homo) is now generally undisputed. The branch forming the Homo andPanlineage apart from Gorilla is relatively short (node 73, 27 steps MP, 0 indels) compared with that of thePan genus (node 72, 91 steps MP, 2 indels) and suggests rapid speciation into the 3 genera occurred early in Homininae evolution. Based on 54 gene regions, Homo-Pan genetic distance range from 6.92 to 7.90×10−3 substitutions/site (P. paniscus and P. troglodytes, respectively), which is less than previous estimates based on large scale sequencing of specific regions such as chromosome 7[50]. "​
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

CONCLUSION:

This evidence lays out the results of employing a tested methodology on the question of Primate evolution. The same general criteria/methods have been used on nearly all facets of the evolution of living things.

Feel free to provide evidence for magic creation of a man from dust 6-10,000 years ago.
 

tas8831

Well-Known Member
And so I ask: what EVIDENCE did Darwin have or use to make his claim that humans most likely - probably - maybe - possibly - likely - however you want to say it -- evolved from gorillas????????????????????

Here is an online depository of Darwin's works:

Darwin Online

It is searchable. Show us that Darwin said humans evolved from gorillas.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
No, a guess is not always made without evidence, or a basis for the guess. That's what surmise is. A guess. Same as conjecture. I gave you and him the edge when I asked as I was reading if his guess-surmise was authenticated, because why did he surmise that?

Did you read the definitions? Cambridge says it's a GUESS. So you want to make a big deal out of it? Something tells me you are the one not being honest, since you want to concentrate on the fact that surmise is not a guess. But dictionaries say different. For instance,
"To surmise is to form an opinion or make a guess about something. If you surmise that something is true, you don't have much evidence or knowledge about it. Near synonyms are guess, conjecture, and suppose."
surmise - Dictionary Definition : Vocabulary.com

https://www.vocabulary.com › dictionary › surmise

Furthermore, now that you've started on this, I ask you, Darwin based his "surmise" on what evidence? That gorillas looked like humans and were walking almost in a humanoid way? WHAT EVIDENCE DID HE HAVE FOR HIS SURMISE? Here's another definition of SURMISE: (It's not figuring genomes yet.)

surmise
  1. Thought, imagination, or conjecture, which may be based upon feeble or scanty evidence; suspicion; guess.
What was Darwin's SCANTY FEEBLE EVIDENCE????? (Guess, surmise?)
I am sorry but we are done. You are not being honorable in even this small point. You claimed to want to learn and you have demonstrated that was a false claim. And sadly you are another confirmation that a person cannot be honest and be an informed creationist.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
How did the evidence indicate at that time that we were apes? What EVIDENCE????? Why are you making such a big issue over the use of surmise or guess?
Until you apologize you are in no position to ask questions any longer. I will gladly refute your errors, but when you go back on at least your implied word you lost the ability to demand answers.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Once again, I said "only" 98%, while the author said that the gorilla with 98% of the human DNA trailed behind the 99% of the chimpanzee. (shrug. So?) Did the author say the gorilla trailed behind the 99% shared DNA of the chimpanzee? So the gorilla TRAILED BEHIND by 1%. :)
Oh, yes, and I'm trying to learn slowly by asking questions and making comments, which you seem to not want. You want me to swallow what evolutionists are saying without analyzing the information presented. Maybe we can go on. I say this hopefully, but we'll see. Now you stopped me. And so I ask: what EVIDENCE did Darwin have or use to make his claim that humans most likely - probably - maybe - possibly - likely - however you want to say it -- evolved from gorillas????????????????????? (Even though studies proved that gorillas "trailed behind" the DNA said to be shared by chimpanzees and bonobos.) Again, what evidence did Darwin go by at that time?
One last time. You are clearly not trying to learn. That was a false claim.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Until you apologize you are in no position to ask questions any longer. I will gladly refute your errors, but when you go back on at least your implied word you lost the ability to demand answers.
You are making a big issue over the use of a word. Yet the dictionary likens surmise to a guess. But in the meantime, the article you suggested, which I started to read until it became a big issue about the term surmise vs. guess stated this: "In 1871 Charles Darwin surmised that humans were evolutionarily closer to the African apes than to any other species alive. The recent sequencing of the gorilla, chimpanzee and bonobo genomes confirms that supposition and provides a clearer view of how we are connected: chimps and bonobos in particular take pride of place as our nearest living relatives, sharing approximately 99 percent of our DNA, with gorillas trailing at 98 percent." (Note the author uses the word 'supposition' there.)
So because another issue came up regarding Darwin's surmising that chimps and bonobos take "pride of place as our nearest living relatives," with gorillas trailing at 98 percent -- I don't know what it means to you, but to me it means that Charles Darwin surmised that humans were closer to African apes than any other species. And so again, I ask -- when Charles Darwin surmised that humans were "closer to African apes than any other species," on what did he base that idea?
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
One last time. You are clearly not trying to learn. That was a false claim.
The author of the article also used the word supposition in this regard. So yes, I ask, on what basis did Darwin suppose or surmise that humans were evolutionarily closer to African apes? I am willing to go on, but yes, if you want to stop here more or less, I will say again, thank you for allowing me or attempting to have a conversation about this.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
One last time. You are clearly not trying to learn. That was a false claim.
The article used the word gorillas. Correct me if I'm wrong -- are gorillas "African apes"? OK, I looked that up, and here's what I found (I'm learning, but there's a lot to remember):
"The non-human types of apes are divided into two groups: great apes — gorillas, bonobos, chimpanzees and orangutans — and lesser apes — gibbons and siamangs. ... Apes do not have tails, while most monkeys do, and apes are typically larger than monkeys, according to the Smithsonian National Zoological Park." So there are two groups of apes -- great apes, and lesser apes. Great apes include gorillas, bonobos, and chimpanzees.
Wikipedia says: "Gorillas are ground-dwelling, predominantly herbivorous apes that inhabit the forests of central Sub-Saharan Africa. The genus Gorilla is divided into two species: the eastern gorillas and the western gorillas (both critically endangered), and either four or five subspecies. They are the largest living primates."
So evidently Darwin surmised that "humans were evolutionarily closer to the African apes than to any other species alive." And..."The recent sequencing of the gorilla, chimpanzee and bonobo genomes confirms that supposition." That is, according to the article in Scientific American.
 

YoursTrue

Faith-confidence in what we hope for (Hebrews 11)
Here is an online depository of Darwin's works:

Darwin Online

It is searchable. Show us that Darwin said humans evolved from gorillas.
Actually, I was reading an article presented to me by another poster, and here is what it said: (from Scientific American) -- "In 1871 Charles Darwin surmised that humans were evolutionarily closer to the African apes than to any other species alive. The recent sequencing of the gorilla, chimpanzee and bonobo genomes confirms that supposition and provides a clearer view of how we are connected: chimps and bonobos in particular take pride of place as our nearest living relatives, sharing approximately 99 percent of our DNA, with gorillas trailing at 98 percent."
The author of the article in Scientific American said that Darwin surmised that "humans were evolutionarily closer to the African apes than any other species alive." https://www.scientificamerican.com/...humans-and-other-primates-pervade-the-genome/
It also states that the "recent sequencing of the gorilla, chimpanzee and bonobo genomes confirms that supposition." I didn't make that statement, the article in Scientific American did.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
The article used the word gorillas. Correct me if I'm wrong -- are gorillas "African apes"? OK, I looked that up, and here's what I found (I'm learning, but there's a lot to remember):
"The non-human types of apes are divided into two groups: great apes — gorillas, bonobos, chimpanzees and orangutans — and lesser apes — gibbons and siamangs. ... Apes do not have tails, while most monkeys do, and apes are typically larger than monkeys, according to the Smithsonian National Zoological Park." So there are two groups of apes -- great apes, and lesser apes. Great apes include gorillas, bonobos, and chimpanzees.
Wikipedia says: "Gorillas are ground-dwelling, predominantly herbivorous apes that inhabit the forests of central Sub-Saharan Africa. The genus Gorilla is divided into two species: the eastern gorillas and the western gorillas (both critically endangered), and either four or five subspecies. They are the largest living primates."
So evidently Darwin surmised that "humans were evolutionarily closer to the African apes than to any other species alive." And..."The recent sequencing of the gorilla, chimpanzee and bonobo genomes confirms that supposition." That is, according to the article in Scientific American.
Yes, the article used the word gorillas. So what? Are you purposefully trying to misunderstand? You do not look good either way.

By the way, that article did make an error. Humans are apes. Sometimes the popular press gets things wrong. Humans are great apes which is a subset of apes, which is a subset of primates, which is a subset of mammals etc. and so on all the way to eukaryote.

Right now I am ignoring the rest of your posts once you make an error.
 
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