Evidence For And Against Evolution

[YoursTrue]

Was. He died nine years ago (8 April 2010, according to Antony Flew - Wikipedia ).

Well, whatever you believe -- if he lived longer, you think he'd withdraw, have a change of mind, or do you think he's completely dead, brain-wise and otherwise?

 

[Polymath257]

Are they alive when they make/produce another of their organisms? (Or are they dead...)

Changes to genetics go between generations. The changes an animal goes through during life don't usually get passed on to the next generation.

Only the changes in the genes in the sperm and egg cells actually get passed on, so only those are relevant to evolution.

 

[YoursTrue]

And yet you're more than willing to spread falsehoods about the man and not apologize for it and correct yourself afterwards.

It takes a tremendous lack of humility to presume the beliefs and opinions of the dead against their actual expressed beliefs and opinions, but it takes an astronomical, God-like self-perception to act as if doing so is justified even after it has been pointed out to you that you're wrong.

All you need to do is write "I was wrong/mistaken and presumptuous, Einstein did not agree with my beliefs, and I'm sorry I claimed he did". Is that hard?

Unlike you, I understand what Einstein said. If I'm wrong, and I see him, I hope to have a conversation with him. And who knows? Maybe you'll be there, too.

 

[YoursTrue]

Changes to genetics go between generations. The changes an animal goes through during life don't usually get passed on to the next generation.

Only the changes in the genes in the sperm and egg cells actually get passed on, so only those are relevant to evolution.

And you know this how? Further, do you have any current evidence not just of fossils of animals which are, of course, dead, but any evidence of any type of organism (by that I mean animals right now) that are evolving in any shape, form, or manner?

 

[YoursTrue]

Changes to genetics go between generations. The changes an animal goes through during life don't usually get passed on to the next generation.

Only the changes in the genes in the sperm and egg cells actually get passed on, so only those are relevant to evolution.

Therefore, as I read your post again, the changes you speak of in the sperm and egg cells that get passed on must have changed in order for an organism to evolve. Is that right? On the other hand, as I said, I do not accept, believe, or think that because there is a short statured population and a long-legged population that has inbred for a long time and have distinctive characteristics en large that it means they are not humans, belonging to the current homo sapien family. That is not evolution, and it is not what I am talking about. Humans so far, within the thousands of years of recorded history, have remained humans. Nothing is recorded that says anyone saw a gibbon become a homo sapien. Or anything else other than a gibbon. Of course, that's only the past 5000 or so years.

 

[Polymath257]

And you know this how? Further, do you have any current evidence not just of fossils of animals which are, of course, dead, but any evidence of any type of organism (by that I mean animals right now) that are evolving in any shape, form, or manner?

Of course. In this context, evolution just means changes in genetics as the generations proceed. And that we can, and do, measure.

Furthermore, we can correlate the changes in genetics to selection pressures, etc.

We have, for example, actually witnessed new species of lizards being produced over the course of a few years.

 

[YoursTrue]

And yet you're more than willing to spread falsehoods about the man and not apologize for it and correct yourself afterwards.

It takes a tremendous lack of humility to presume the beliefs and opinions of the dead against their actual expressed beliefs and opinions, but it takes an astronomical, God-like self-perception to act as if doing so is justified even after it has been pointed out to you that you're wrong.

All you need to do is write "I was wrong/mistaken and presumptuous, Einstein did not agree with my beliefs, and I'm sorry I claimed he did". Is that hard?

He already said he doesn't like what he heard about God. I would say he heard very bad things if people kept talking about religion and what God will or won't do, as if they know. I also would say that after his entry into the world of various ideas that he gave up (as I did for a while) about trying to figure out about God and so he might have figured God does not exist.

 

[Polymath257]

Therefore, as I read your post again, the changes you speak of in the sperm and egg cells that get passed on must have changed in order for an organism to evolve. Is that right? On the other hand, as I said, I do not accept, believe, or think that because there is a short statured population and a long-legged population that has inbred for a long time and have distinctive characteristics en large that it means they are not humans, belonging to the current homo sapien family. That is not evolution, and it is not what I am talking about. Humans so far, within the thousands of years of recorded history, have remained humans. Nothing is recorded that says anyone saw a gibbon become a homo sapien. Or anything else other than a gibbon. Of course, that's only the past 5000 or so years.

Well, usually speciation takes around 50,000 years for mammals in the wild.

Plus, we don't expect evolution of non-humans to occur naturally unless there is selection pressure away from being human. And, on the contrary, there is enough gene flow between human populations that it will keep us the same species for the forseeable future.

Speciation tends to happen when populations split into subpopulations that don't interbreed. Over time, the two subpopulations diverge in their characteristics. That is evolution in action.

 

[YoursTrue]

Of course. In this context, evolution just means changes in genetics as the generations proceed. And that we can, and do, measure.

Furthermore, we can correlate the changes in genetics to selection pressures, etc.

We have, for example, actually witnessed new species of lizards being produced over the course of a few years.

They remain lizards, I guess. Maybe in time you think they'll evolve or be inbred by humans to have long upright legs. (They're still lizards.)

 

[YoursTrue]

Of course. In this context, evolution just means changes in genetics as the generations proceed. And that we can, and do, measure.

Furthermore, we can correlate the changes in genetics to selection pressures, etc.

We have, for example, actually witnessed new species of lizards being produced over the course of a few years.

We have? Please do give references. I'd like to look at that. Thank you.

 

[YoursTrue]

Well, usually speciation takes around 50,000 years for mammals in the wild.

Plus, we don't expect evolution of non-humans to occur naturally unless there is selection pressure away from being human. And, on the contrary, there is enough gene flow between human populations that it will keep us the same species for the forseeable future.

Speciation tends to happen when populations split into subpopulations that don't interbreed. Over time, the two subpopulations diverge in their characteristics. That is evolution in action.

Your profile says you're against evolution. Please explain how you are against evolution.

 

[Polymath257]

They remain lizards, I guess. Maybe in time you think they'll evolve or be inbred by humans to have long upright legs. (They're still lizards.)

And we *expect* them to 'remain lizards'.

Let's do it this What do you *think* it means to evolve?

The descendants of mammals will stay mammals, but with different characteristics. So, the base mammals evolved into carnivores, primates, etc.

The descendants of birds will stay birds, but with different charactertistics. So, the original birds lost their teeth, got stronger forearms for flight, etc.

The descendants of vertebrates remain vertebrates. They just diverged into mammals, reptiles, birds, etc.

And guess what? Humans are still vertebrates. We are still primates. We are still great apes.

THAT is how evolution works.

 

[Polymath257]

We have? Please do give references. I'd like to look at that. Thank you.

Here are a few examples. I can find more if you want.

This New Lizard Species Evolved in a Lab | Smart News | Smithsonian

Lizards Rapidly Evolve After Introduction to Island

Florida lizards evolve rapidly, within 15 years and 20 generations

 

[Polymath257]

Your profile says you're against evolution. Please explain how you are against evolution.

Then you are reading my profile incorrectly. Slow down and read more carefully.

 

[Subduction Zone]

You really don't want to have a conversation.

What makes you think that? Did I not give you enough information so that you could figure it out for yourself? Just admit that you do not understand. You appear to be trying to learn ask "gotcha" questions. When one is obviously wrong,as you are in this discussion, they are foolish questions that only highlight the fact that the asker has no clue.

 

[Subduction Zone]

Are they alive when they make/produce another of their organisms? (Or are they dead...)

This is an example of what I was just talking about.

 

[Subduction Zone]

And what, since you imply you know God and his thoughts by telling me I am lying about Him, do tell about new species that have come about from these mutations that you personally know about, or have had someone tell you in their eyewitness accounts. (Thanks.)

You should first try to understand how speciation occurs. The first step is a separation of two populations.

 

[Astrophile]

Well, whatever you believe -- if he lived longer, you think he'd withdraw, have a change of mind, or do you think he's completely dead, brain-wise and otherwise?

I don't know. I was merely putting Gnostic's statement that Antony Flew 'is an atheist and a philosopher' and that 'he is affiliated with the Discovery Institute' into the past tense, since he (Flew) is no longer alive.

 

[YoursTrue]

I don't know. I was merely putting Gnostic's statement that Antony Flew 'is an atheist and a philosopher' and that 'he is affiliated with the Discovery Institute' into the past tense, since he (Flew) is no longer alive.

ok, that makes sense now, thanks.

 

[YoursTrue]

You should first try to understand how speciation occurs.

Ok, you're right there. So I guess I will have to look up speciation. And since you know much much more than I do, hopefully you and others can help me through it when I have questions. Also how speciation relates to the idea of bacteria eventually evolving to the current latest form, which is, of course, homo sapiens. Yes, speciation and separation of populations is an interesting thought.