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Evidence for Jesus' Resurrection

McBell

Admiral Obvious
That the body was never put in the tomb to begin with because they were afraid that someone would take off with it.
That someone took off with it.
That Jesus wasn't actually dead, but unconscious and after he was put in the tomb, he regained consciousness.
That it wasn't even Jesus that was crucified in the first place.
 

DarkMaster24

Active Member
Graverobbers for the empty tomb, hallucinations by the people who "saw" Jesus, or they didn't mean they literally saw the physical Jesus, that it was more a spiritual thing. That's the easy way of explaining it. There are other possibilities, too.

Heh, mass hallucinations is the one I'm going with.
 

DarkMaster24

Active Member
That the body was never put in the tomb to begin with because they were afraid that someone would take off with it.
That someone took off with it.
That Jesus wasn't actually dead, but unconscious and after he was put in the tomb, he regained consciousness.
That it wasn't even Jesus that was crucified in the first place.

Thanks for answering my question Mestimia.

But isn't Jesus' crucifixion a historical fact? I admit, I could be wrong here but that's what I thought I heard somewhere.
 

Magic Man

Reaper of Conversation
Thanks for answering my question Mestimia.

But isn't Jesus' crucifixion a historical fact? I admit, I could be wrong here but that's what I thought I heard somewhere.

It's generally agreed upon. I wouldn't say it's a stone cold fact. Besides, what does that have to do with what Mestemia said?
 

DarkMaster24

Active Member
It's generally agreed upon. I wouldn't say it's a stone cold fact. Besides, what does that have to do with what Mestemia said?

He said that Jesus may not of been crucified according to one theory, I was just asking him if that theory had any credibility.
 

McBell

Admiral Obvious
He said that Jesus may not of been crucified according to one theory, I was just asking him if that theory had any credibility.
Actually, I read that in a thread on this here forum.
But it was some time ago and I do not remember what the thread was called.

Someone was saying that God changed someones face to look like Jesus and that the changed face dude was the one who was crucified whilst Jesus made his escape.
 

Smoke

Done here.
Finally, resurrection as a bodily event: In the first century world, pagans universally denied resurrection
No, they didn't.

Seven ancient sources verify that the disciples suffered (and some of them died) for their faith: Acts; Clement of Rome; Polycarp; Ignatius; Tertullian; Origen; and Dionysius of Corinth (preserved in Eusebius). Of course, there is also the testimony of Paul himself.
With the exception of Paul and possibly Clement, none of those you list could have known the early disciples. And I don't deny that some of Jesus' early followers were martyred, but you have not established the essential point of your argument: that they died for refusing to renounce the physical resurrection of Jesus.

If we know some of the oral traditions as preserved in the New Testament, then we do in fact have that tradition today.
If Luke is an example of the kind of oral traditions that circulated among early Christians, we can be certain that those oral traditions were not necessarily reliable.

Can you support this claim with evidence?
I not only can, but already have. Read the post again. I don't have time to elaborate further right now, but I can do so after work.

If you don't trust the testimony of Acts then you can't use the account of Paul's conversion to support your point that these were spiritual encounters. Also, many writers (even today) can write accurately about events they did not witness themselves. A discussion of Gamaliel would be interesting but off-topic since I am not arguing here for the reliability of Luke as a historian.
The reliability of "Luke" as a historian is essential to your argument, though I am not claiming that everything in Acts is false, just that it must be approached with caution. And regardless of the reliability of Acts, I think it's relevant to point out that even "Luke" doesn't depict Paul as describing a physical encounter.

Of course Luke isn't the only one who believed in a physical resurrection. Three gospels, the disciples, and Paul himself taught resurrection as a bodily event (I'm sure we'll discuss this more later).
Of course "Luke" isn't the only one. I don't deny that the early Christians believed in a physical resurrection or even that some of the authentic disciples of Jesus did. I am saying, however, that such an extraordinary claim requires extraordinary evidence, and I think you've set the bar very low. You didn't respond to another question of mine, but I think it's a very important one:
At Salem in 1692, sworn witnesses told of having seen Sarah Good fly through the air riding a stick. In England, over a period of 150 years, hundreds of witnesses reported sightings of Spring-Heeled Jack. At Knock in Ireland in 1879, fifteen people witnessed the appearance of the Mother of God, St. Joseph and St. John. At Fatima in 1917, 70,000 people reported having seen the sun change colors and dance across the sky. In the U.S. in the 20th century, dozens of people reported having been kidnaped by extraterrestrials.

Do you really believe the most likely explanation for all these things is that all those people experienced what they thought they experienced? Or does it seem more likely that there's some other -- likely psychological -- explanation?​
 

logician

Well-Known Member
I would love to get a discussion going on this. Right now, New Testament scholars (including non-believers) almost unanimously agree that Jesus died by crucifixion, that his followers had experiences after his death in which they saw him alive, and that both Paul and James (church persecutor and skeptic, respectively) converted to Christianity because they, too, had experiences in which they saw the risen Jesus. A fifth fact, accepted by about 75% of scholars, is that Jesus' tomb was indeed found empty. Personally, I find the evidence for these five facts very compelling. It seems to me that the best explanation - the only one that accounts for all the evidence - is that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Obviously this conclusion does not go unchallenged. There are of course alternative theories on offer, but none (so far as I can tell) can adequately provide a persuasive explanation for all these facts. Significantly, there is nothing even close to a consensus among New Testament scholars about how to account for the facts.

Given the immense importance of Jesus' resurrection - especially if true - it seems to me that everybody should take this into serious consideration. I look forward to discussing these ideas.


And your hard historical evidence is?
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
Seven ancient sources verify that the disciples suffered (and some of them died) for their faith: Acts; Clement of Rome; Polycarp; Ignatius; Tertullian; Origen; and Dionysius of Corinth (preserved in Eusebius). Of course, there is also the testimony of Paul himself.

I would be interested in seeing the actual citations from the sources you mentioned refering to the persecution of the apostles.

I've looked into the supposed martyrdom of the 12 and I've never seen any references to that effect from any of the early church fathers you mentioned except Clement, and the only apostle who's martyrdom Clement talks about is Peter.

Clement aslo said that Matthew "died peaceably in a good old age" which contradicts the numerous traditions about Matthews alledged martyrdom (many of which contradict each other).
 

Charity

Let's go racing boys !
I would be interested in seeing the actual citations from the sources you mentioned refering to the persecution of the apostles.

I've looked into the supposed martyrdom of the 12 and I've never seen any references to that effect from any of the early church fathers you mentioned except Clement, and the only apostle who's martyrdom Clement talks about is Peter.

Clement aslo said that Matthew "died peaceably in a good old age" which contradicts the numerous traditions about Matthews alledged martyrdom (many of which contradict each other).
So how can we know that Clement is credible and everyone else isn't? .....:rolleyes:
 

Quagmire

Imaginary talking monkey
Staff member
Premium Member
So how can we know that Clement is credible and everyone else isn't? .....:rolleyes:

You're missing the point here, Charity. I wasn't trying to confer any particular credibility to Clement.

I'm actually trying to get an idea of Kobayashi's credibility. :rolleyes:

Basically I'm saying that, as far as I've ever been able to find, Clement is the only church father who even spoke about the death of an Apostle, and he's contradicting the point Kabayashi's was trying to make by mentioning him in the first place.

See what I'm getting at?
 
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Charity

Let's go racing boys !
You're missing the point here, Charity. I wasn't trying to confer any particular credibility to Clement.

I'm actually trying to get an idea of Kobayashi's credibility. :rolleyes:

Basically I'm saying that, as far as I've ever been able to find, Clement is the only church father who even spoke about the death of an Apostle, and he's contradicting the point Kabayashi's was trying to make by mentioning him in the first place.

See what I'm getting at?
Yes My dear, I see what you are saying.....just seeing it from a different perspective......;)
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
I would love to get a discussion going on this. Right now, New Testament scholars (including non-believers) almost unanimously agree that Jesus died by crucifixion, that his followers had experiences after his death in which they saw him alive, and that both Paul and James (church persecutor and skeptic, respectively) converted to Christianity because they, too, had experiences in which they saw the risen Jesus. A fifth fact, accepted by about 75% of scholars, is that Jesus' tomb was indeed found empty. Personally, I find the evidence for these five facts very compelling. It seems to me that the best explanation - the only one that accounts for all the evidence - is that God raised Jesus from the dead.

Obviously this conclusion does not go unchallenged. There are of course alternative theories on offer, but none (so far as I can tell) can adequately provide a persuasive explanation for all these facts. Significantly, there is nothing even close to a consensus among New Testament scholars about how to account for the facts.

Given the immense importance of Jesus' resurrection - especially if true - it seems to me that everybody should take this into serious consideration. I look forward to discussing these ideas.

This non believer disagrees with it. Beyond the bible there's not much to substantiate the resurrection.
 

Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
If that were true then Christianity wouldn't exist.

Same can be said for any other existing religion on the planet. This is not a convincing argument. If it is true then you should be a muslim...right....or a hindu....right????


The sources include church fathers as well as non-Christian historians. If you want to discuss specific points in the argument, I will be happy to share citations with you. But it would be boring to just type out all the relevant quotations in one post (probably boring to read too).

If you are disputing any of the facts I mentioned, say which ones and we'll discuss the evidence. I'm not defending the New Testament as inspired or even generally reliable; I am simply treating it as 27 ancient sources from the early Christians. My argument is based not on just what the Bible says but on well-supported historical facts accepted by most scholars who study this subject, including skeptical ones. If you think the evidence is weak, give me some kind of argument. Otherwise it's just your word against mine.


And we can show that the religion is based on previous myths. Will you accept these evidences???
 
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Dirty Penguin

Master Of Ceremony
The facts I listed in the first post.

Is it really plausible to say that the disciples simply imagined that Jesus was alive, after having seen him die?

Who of the 11 apostles stuck around to see him die? Your bible says they weren't there.


That Paul, who was busy throwing Christians into prison and handing them over to die, suddenly imagined that Jesus was risen from the dead?

Your bible does not give any indication that Paul ever met Yeshua. All we have is his word that he heard a voice. This is dicey since there is no indication that he had ever heard his voice before or seen his face. Another interesting thing is depending on who Paul is telling "HIS story" to it never remains the same.

It's not enough to simply suggest alternate theories. We also need to see what the evidence indicates. But the disciples claimed to have seen Jesus resurrected from the dead; so did Paul. Furthermore, this doesn't account for the empty tomb.

You're making the assumptions the disciples were there at the crucifixion. We know, from your own bible, Paul wasn't a witness. There is no real indication that he actually died on the cross. Pilate was amazed at this fast death considering a person could survive for days on a cross. Joseph and Nicodemus had the tomb prepped and begged to have him taken down, after he was administered an anesthetic mixed with his drink. They had purchased about 75/100 lbs. of Myrrh and Aloe to be placed in the tomb. Myrrh can be used to stop blood and guess what....?....Aloe can and is used to heal wounds.

Tell me...why does a dead man who is raised back to life by his god need to partake of earthly things? When the biblical Yeshua appears to them, according to one gospel, He says touch me and handle me and you will see I'm not a spirit because a spirit does not have flesh and bone as you see I do. Do you have anything here to eat?

He told them these things because he wasn't dead at all and he asked for food because he was hungry and just as human and alive as the rest of them.....but remember....it's just a story book. You interpret it how you like.
 

Hospitaller

Seminarian
hmm... believing in Jesus' resurrection is an act based upon faith and trust, not upon evidence. if you dont want to believe, then simply don't.
 

darkendless

Guardian of Asgaard
hmm... believing in Jesus' resurrection is an act based upon faith and trust, not upon evidence. if you dont want to believe, then simply don't.

The OP specified 5 different kinds of evidence, all of which dubious. Given what you have said wouldn't you call believing in the ressurection blind faith, considering its rather unrealistic?
 

kobayashi

Member
Can you name us one 'non believer' scholar who agrees with the claim that the followers of Jesus had saw him alive after his death?

Gerd Ludemann, a skeptic of Christianity (I think he's an atheist but I may be wrong). Allow me to clarify something - the majority position is not that the disciples saw the risen Christ (as if the majority affirmed the resurrection), but that they had actual experiences of something which [/i]they believed[/i] was the risen Christ.
 
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