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Evidence FOR the Creation Theory

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kreeden

Virus of the Mind
Ok , I got bored about half way through this thread ...

Ceridwen , why did you send me here ? I said that a " missing link " has never been found for any species , to the best of my knowledge . I never said that " Creation " was the answer . Although evolution appears to be the logical explaination , untill they find a missing link , it is just theory and that was my point .

Ain't nutin here about no missing links . :)
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Deut has summed up the whole creationist case completely and succinctly: "God did it!"

Add all the florid rhetoric you want, but this is all it boils down to.

There is no mechanism behind it. It is magic, pure and simple.
 

Pah

Uber all member
kreeden said:
Ok , I got bored about half way through this thread ...

Ceridwen , why did you send me here ? I said that a " missing link " has never been found for any species , to the best of my knowledge . I never said that " Creation " was the answer . Although evolution appears to be the logical explaination , untill they find a missing link , it is just theory and that was my point .

Ain't nutin here about no missing links . :)

And there shoudn't be any evidence for a missing link in this thread. This thread is about the evidence for Creationism

Bob
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
"Until they find a missing link, it is just theory, and that is my point."

This illustrates a common misunderstanding of what a theory is. A theory is not an incomplete fact. A theory is an interpretation of a series of observations; a conclusion drawn from a set of facts. A theory may be simultaneously a theory and a fact. The germ theory of disease causation and the heliocentric theory of the solar system are both theories and facts. A fact, by the way, is not a proven theory. Proof is for mathematics. A fact is a theory that's amassed enough evidence supporting it that no reasonable person would doubt it.
 

LISA63

Member
This thread seems to be as messed up as the first one I looked at in this section.

I am currently going for a degree as a biologist and I had hoped to gain some real intelligent arguement in these forums, but sadly it seems that childish banter is the norm here.

I will however attempt an intelligent response to the question that began this thread.

Science has proven that life only comes from life, there is no instance of an observation by scientist that life occurs as the result of natural chemistry. this is repeatably proven and observed,
so if hypothesis is based on observation and logic how did evolution become a theory?
in order to become a theory it must have some repeatable and proveable evidence to back the hypothesis and the observable evidence shows life does not form by itself.
that would be evidence for creation right?

needing to wear clothes is evidence for creationism, would you not agree?
what other creature is not perfectly adapted to its environment to the point of needing artificial coverings to survive? if we came about by evolutionary advancement then we would not have lost our fur covering as the loss would not be a preferred selection concerning survivability.
I would also ask what that first hairless ancestor used for a covering seeing as how animal skins don't normally exist without treatment to keep from decay and how would that ancestor know how to make anything? even his parents would not have known how to cope with an infant without the same problems as they had.

Bipedalism is also not preferred over quadrupeds, the best adaptation is those creatures that are quarduped with the ability to biped as needed (bears, prarie dogs, etc.) and an assumption that bipedalism could become preferred over a combination is logically not realistic.

these last 2 items I have discussed with several respected biologists and they have agreed that it makes no sense from thier standpoint either so I assume there is no evidence that these mutations could increase the survivability of the creature that is alledged to have become us.
this is the 2 cents i have for this thread and it is my hope that the hate and disrespect that seems to overwhelm the forums here does not get directed at me, all I want is intelligent response to the logic that I am posting so if all that is offered is childish illogical responses then don't bother to answer, I'm sure there must be a place that the truley intelligent can deal with a topic using give and take messaging with the intent to get better understanding of who and what we are.
 

Pah

Uber all member
LISA63 said:
...
needing to wear clothes is evidence for creationism, would you not agree?
what other creature is not perfectly adapted to its environment to the point of needing artificial coverings to survive? if we came about by evolutionary advancement then we would not have lost our fur covering as the loss would not be a preferred selection concerning survivability.
I understand creationism would have the first clothing as fig leaves but it is stated that clothing was to cover nudity - not protection from the environement. Science says that the locality of the first humans was a "beneficient" enviroment with little need of clothing. Evolution is based on survival in relation to the enviroment. The extreme of the example you suggest is nonsense would be an Eskimo. I suggest that Eskimo's were not present until human skills were such that they could survive in the enviroment.

I would also ask what that first hairless ancestor used for a covering seeing as how animal skins don't normally exist without treatment to keep from decay and how would that ancestor know how to make anything? even his parents would not have known how to cope with an infant without the same problems as they had.
The Clan of the Bear Cave, an admitted fiction, postulated female urine as a preparation for leather and fur. The "next kill" would make an ample supply for replentishment for articles of clothing. Even grasses would be a good insulation - braiding of grasses could have led to crude weaving. Lying in the grasses might well have been an inspiration to make a clump of crass "mobile" and warming.

Children can be warmed simply by being in close contact with the body of a parent.


Bipedalism is also not preferred over quadrupeds, the best adaptation is those creatures that are quarduped with the ability to biped as needed (bears, prarie dogs, etc.) and an assumption that bipedalism could become preferred over a combination is logically not realistic.
I see a "cart before the horse" here. It is not the adaptation that is prefered but the survivalibilty that is able to use the adaptation.

these last 2 items I have discussed with several respected biologists and they have agreed that it makes no sense from thier standpoint either so I assume there is no evidence that these mutations could increase the survivability of the creature that is alledged to have become us.
this is the 2 cents i have for this thread and it is my hope that the hate and disrespect that seems to overwhelm the forums here does not get directed at me, all I want is intelligent response to the logic that I am posting so if all that is offered is childish illogical responses then don't bother to answer, I'm sure there must be a place that the truley intelligent can deal with a topic using give and take messaging with the intent to get better understanding of who and what we are.
I was not privy to the discussion you had with the biologists so I'm not sure what was the "narrowness" or "expanse" of the questions. I know that when I talk to QTpi, a biology teacher, her answers are directed to a scope of the topic that I might not be addressing.


Many of us here speak from our worldview and reply "in kind". Creationism is primarily a support of a religious view point.

Bob
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
we're the only ones in our environment that developed these traits/habbits?we went one way and the chimps went another, yet we've lived together the whole time?we're the only species to braid grass and make clothing?

chance
 

Pah

Uber all member
HelpMe said:
we're the only ones in our environment that developed these traits/habbits?we went one way and the chimps went another, yet we've lived together the whole time?we're the only species to braid grass and make clothing?

chance

Seems so! Except for the naked mole, we are the only ones I know of that have no natural cover. That was Lisa's point.

Bob
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
LISA63 said:
...needing to wear clothes is evidence for creationism, would you not agree? what other creature is not perfectly adapted to its environment to the point of needing artificial coverings to survive? if we came about by evolutionary advancement then we would not have lost our fur covering as the loss would not be a preferred selection concerning survivability.
The fact that mankind has no "fur covering" is evidence for creationism? Is this it? Is this what they are teaching you in college, or did you come up with this on your own? It is this type of Pseudo-Science that is quoted by the gullible people that are so adamant on proving that their religious views are correct. You are doing those people an injustice, Lisa, when you feed them this tripe. Woof!

TVOR
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
The Voice of Reason said:
...Woof!

TVOR
then answer the question as to why?
Deut. 32.8 said:
That is simply false.
why haven't more species developed it then?apart from human's technology, what bipedal creature is the predator of quads?


and then...insult me for asking questions.
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
Science has proven that life only comes from life,
As we've stated in other threads, science has observed that life comes from life. As a scientist in training, you should know that observation does not warrant proof. It speaks for the great probability that all life comes from other life, however in light of recent discoveries, that theory is being called into question.

there is no instance of an observation by scientist that life occurs as the result of natural chemistry. this is repeatably proven and observed,
I posted this entire article for you elsewhere. Here we go again:
From www.talkorigins.com

"Despite many arguments, largely theoretical but with some experimental work, spontaneous generation remained a viable option for the origins of life - for abiogenesis - but it was a very confused field. What caused it to change and become focused was the publication on 23 April 1953 of Crick and Watson's Nature paper on the structure of DNA. Three weeks later, a graduate student at the University of Chicago named Stanley Miller published a paper in Science, on 15 May, entitled "A production of amino acids under possible primitive earth conditions". Miller was a doctoral student of Nobel laureate Harold C. Urey (a chemist who discovered deuterium), after he heard a lecture by Urey in which he noted in passing that earth's primordial hydrogen-rich (reducing) atmosphere would have been favourable for the formation of simple organic molecules. {Schopf 123} He decided, with Urey's permission, to test this, assuming an atmosphere of molecular hydrogen (H2), methane (CH4), ammonia (NH3) and water vapour (H2O). Neither Urey nor Miller knew at this point that this was in line with Oparin's hypothesis, but as he prepared for the experiments, Miller read Oparin and mulled it over, along with Urey's hypotheses on the formation of the solar system. {Schopf 125}

He passed the atmosphere through a glass retort, continuously cycling it for several days, while exposing it to heat, electrical arcing, and cooling. After two days, the "ocean" (a flask of water through which the gases were passed) became pale yellow, and on analysis this turned out to be glycine, the simplest amino acid. They repeated the experiment for a week, and in the final yellow-brown solution, Miller detected seven amino acids, including three (glycine, anine and aspartic acid) found in modern living systems. In a period of three and a half months, Miller had confirmed Urey's and Oparin's hypotheses on the formation of the precursor molecules of life.

The claim was never that life had been made, but only that the necessary molecules for life could form spontaneously. Since Wöhler synthesised urea in 1828, this was becoming an inevitable conclusion - the molecular nature of life was more and more widely accepted and applied. Now there was no need to think that organic molecules had to come from organic systems. Later experiments use a more realistic atmosphere, replacing methane with carbon monoxide or dioxide (CO or CO2), or ammonia with molecular nitrogen (N2), with similar results.

An alternative to the Oparin-Miller model was proposed by Günter Wächtershäuser, who suggested that carbon oxides released from deep sea vents could stabilise on iron-sulphates, reacting with molecular hydrogen to form organic monomers (simple molecular units) from which life could form. Others have included the roles of clay substrates as catalytic templates for molecules to form on before there were genes, the formation of organic molecules in space (now well-established) seeding the early earth, and a formal model by Manfred von Eigen of how chemical reactions might generate copies of themselves - the hypercycle.

Sidney Fox successfully synthesised coascervate "cells" (a coascervate is a mixture of colloids that can, like lipids in modern cells, form a layer that will enclose molecules, but which can allow monomers to pass across it). These will, under some conditions, divide as they "grow" to form new cells."

Lisa63 said:
what other creature is not perfectly adapted to its environment to the point of needing artificial coverings to survive?
Pretty much every animal and insect there is. It's called, 'shelter'.

Lisa63 said:
Bipedalism is also not preferred over quadrupeds, the best adaptation is those creatures that are quarduped with the ability to biped as needed (bears, prarie dogs, etc.) and an assumption that bipedalism could become preferred over a combination is logically not realistic.

these last 2 items I have discussed with several respected biologists and they have agreed that it makes no sense from thier standpoint either so I assume there is no evidence that these mutations could increase the survivability of the creature that is alledged to have become us.
This is of course spoken under the assumption that the 'purpose' of evolution is to improve. This is not so. In a word, evolution means 'change', not 'improvement.' There are many disadvantages which come with bipedalism, such as lack of speed, etc., however there are also many advantages, such as the opposable thumb. Ah yes, with the exception of the dolphin, almost every animal species which is partial to higher intelligence has opposable thumbs, and bipedal tendencies.

If mice were bipedal, their susequent lack of speed would make them easy prey for cats. Luckily, we have something which mice don't--greater intelligence. Is it still unclear to you how some animals can survive being bipedal?
 

Ceridwen018

Well-Known Member
they were so great that...
HelpMe,

If you mean to imply that the reference to T-Rex doesn't count because they are now extinct, and therefore were somehow inferior to quadrupeds, take a quick moment to realize that all the quadrupeds they lived with are extinct as well.
 

The Voice of Reason

Doctor of Thinkology
HelpMe said:
then answer the question as to why?
why haven't more species developed it then?apart from human's technology, what bipedal creature is the predator of quads?

and then...insult me for asking questions.
Chimpanzees and Baboons are extremely effective predators of quadrapeds. The idea of excluding man from the equation is a perfect example of your keen ability to twist science and observation. The fact that the number one predator to ever exist is a biped speaks volumes - but since that doesn't support your religious agenda, let's just not count that one! Sheesh! If that statement isn't the perfect example of ignoring the observable data that abounds around you, I don't know what is.

As for the insults, I don't think you really need them. You're doing a fine job of humiliating yourself by continually demanding that science proves your religious views, or, trying to disprove observable, verifiable, testable data that clearly points in the opposite direction from which you would wish it.

Nope - no insults needed here, and none will be forthcoming.

TVOR
 
HelpMe said:
they were so great that...
T. Rex was so great that it took an Earth shattering comet to cause their kind to go extinct.

HelpMe, the topic of this thread is evidence FOR the creation theory, not evidence AGAINST the theory of evolution. So in regards to the topic of this thread....ya got any?
 

HelpMe

·´sociopathic meanderer`·
shoes as shelter?why weren't all species killed when the dinosaurs were?do you believe humans co-existed with dinosaurs?

If mankind has existed for millions of years, one might ask where the remains are of our ancestors? In one million years there would have been twenty five thousand generations of man, and that is by supposing an average of only 2.5 children per family. After twenty five thousand generations, calculations show that there would today be more people than could fit on the earth, and more than could fit in the solar system. The fact that the earth is not crowded implies that the human race is relatively young.

The general archaeological consensus is that the middle east was indeed the cradle of the first civilisation. In this cradle, originating from a primitive settlement near Mount Arrarat, quickly flowered on the plains of Messopotania the great prehistoric civilisation of Someria - an extremely advanced culture from nowhere?From this civilisation sprung great cities and cultures such as the Egyptian Empire, and, of course, a remarkably advanced technology, language and culture, immediately appearing from nowhere?One must look to the tribes that, in one way or another, have become detached from the mainstream of civilisation. It is in these tribes that culture has been seen to descend as savagery arises, some of which have even practiced cannibalism. Similarly, their method of communication and education are extremely primitive, may we categorize this as deevolution?

The clearest example over the past century are the bizarre accounts of feral children, lost in the wilderness as babies and reared by animals. Studies of these feral children have shown that they make little development as normal humans when brought back to the civilised world.The advanced languages of mankind have become an effrontery to evolution. There are no credible explanations as to why different languages exist.

The magnetic field of our planet is decaying at a steady exponential rate. It has been carefully measured over approximately one and a half centuries. At this rate of decay there will be no magnetic field remaining in the year 4000a.d..If we project the decay rate backwards in time -three thousand years ago, the magnetic field would have been four times its strength just now. Seven thousand years ago it would have been thirty two times as strong as it is now, and ten thousand years ago the earth would have had a magnetic field as strong as that of a magnetic star.

In the fantastic processes within the cell, amino acids are nothing more than humble building blocks used by the master builder, and this has to be kept in mind. When Dr. Miller demonstrated that amino acids could be made by natural chemistry, it was made to appear that the mystery of life was nearly solved. Doctor Miller took a mixture of various gases - ammonia, methane and water vapor. which he said represented the atmosphere of the primitive Earth. He put these gases in a flask and passed electric sparks through them which represented flashes of lightning. Various residues were formed including some amino acids. Here were amino acids formed by natural processes. The evolutionists got extremely excited. They began to make it known that ideas of the supernatural could now be disregarded. From now on it would be assumed that life began when a flash of lightning hit a most fortunate group of molecules. This propaganda can be challenged on several accounts(i should assume you know them).

C-14
A freshly killed seal dated by C14 showed it had died 1300 years ago. (Antarctic Journal, vol. 6, [September-October 1971], p. 211.)
Living mollusk shells were dated at up to 2,300 years old. (Science, vol. 141, 1963, pp. 634-637.)
Living snails' shells showed they had died 27,000 years ago. (Science, vol. 224, 1984, pp. 58-61.)
The troubles of the radiocarbon dating method are undeniably deep and serious ... It should be no surprise, then, that fully half of the dates are rejected. The wonder is, surely, that the remaining half come to be accepted." (Lee, R. E., Radiocarbon, "Ages in Error", Anthropological Journal of Canada, 1981, vol. 19, No. 3, p. 9)

Draw your own conclusions from this...

thx

The Voice of Reason said:
The idea of excluding man from the equation is a perfect example of your keen ability to twist science and observation. The fact that the number one predator to ever exist is a biped speaks volumes - but since that doesn't support your religious agenda, let's just not count that one!
and we 'just happen' to be the best predator huh?

i'm sorry, were you not under the impression that 'my religious agenda' includes us being created as the superior species?i didn't ask to exclude man from my question for a religious reason, it was for a purely observational one.the wars, even battles we wage, are not seriously comparable to that of other species due to our technology.

use your conciousness and eyes?
 

LISA63

Member
I understand creationism would have the first clothing as fig leaves but it is stated that clothing was to cover nudity - not protection from the environement. Science says that the locality of the first humans was a "beneficient" enviroment with little need of clothing. Evolution is based on survival in relation to the enviroment. The extreme of the example you suggest is nonsense would be an Eskimo. I suggest that Eskimo's were not present until human skills were such that they could survive in the enviroment.


A good response would be to provide evidence for "Science says that the locality of the first humans was a "beneficient" enviroment with little need of clothing" if this has any basis in fact then it should be provable according to evidence and not postulations, I have enjoyed the company of several highly intelligent and experienced professors and they have no idea about any safe haven that could have existed for any period of earths history.
one other point I feel should be pointed out is that your statement would have man segregated from the rest of an evolving world because every other creature has a perfectly adapted body for surviving the elements

The Clan of the Bear Cave, an admitted fiction, postulated female urine as a preparation for leather and fur. The "next kill" would make an ample supply for replentishment for articles of clothing. Even grasses would be a good insulation - braiding of grasses could have led to crude weaving. Lying in the grasses might well have been an inspiration to make a clump of crass "mobile" and warming.

Children can be warmed simply by being in close contact with the body of a parent.
so the best answer I can get is postulation based on fiction
as an intelligent answer ?
look the statement I made deals with evolutionary advancement and natural selection do not give me all the possible reasons for how they may have dealt with the loss of an adaption that provided a very selectable trait, simply explain how every other creature in existence (observable by science) got to hit the genetic lottery by having correct evolution and we did not, do we not have the same ancestor? then we had the same genetics that have covered them correctly.

children can be warmed by thier parents untill the parents die then they do what? warm themselves by the fire they don't have? did he learn from those parents how to fashion coverings that the parents never would have needed to learn to make?


I see a "cart before the horse" here. It is not the adaptation that is prefered but the survivalibilty that is able to use the adaptation.

the arguement about bipedalism is sound, if a combination of biped and quad is a better trait than a strict biped then explain why evolution would select the lesser? having the combination with intelligence would have been an even more protected and survivable existence right? so then the rules of evolution should have selected it, otherwise we should see other creatures also maladapted to the environment. a logical arguement based on observation.


Many of us here speak from our worldview and reply "in kind". Creationism is primarily a support of a religious view point.
Bob
my world view will be decided by the evidence that proves something, I have studied biology and science for 3 years now and there are to many holes in the evolution theory so lets prove something one way or another based on evidence not postulation or speculation. if you don't have a good solid evidence backed answer then why answer at all?
 
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