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Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
Ok, let's look at some of the prophecies to the coming of the Messiah, written in the Tanakh, which I believe to be about Jesus Christ.
Here are some that refer to the first advent:
Prophecies of the Suffering Servant
1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.

Let's looks at what Genesis 3:15 says:

"And I [God] will put enmity between thee [a talking serpent in the Garden of Eden] and the woman [Eve, allegedly the first female human who was magically created from the rib of the first man], and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise thy head, and thou shalt bruise his heel."

If this passage is to be taken literally, it is absurdly silly and obviously not a description of something real, much less to do with anything Jesus allegedly did. If this is some sort of metaphorical or "spiritual" prophecy, it is vague and any one of a myriad of events could be claimed to "fulfill" such a prophecy. Galatians 4:4 says that Jesus was "born of a woman." Is that what you think the amazing connection is between these passages? I'm not sure if you're aware of this but...pretty much everyone on Earth is "born of a woman."

So I'm unsure what you find so amazing here. If this is the caliber of the remainder of your laundry list that you pulled from some apologetics site, it's terribly unimpressive. Surely you can see that?

Perhaps pick your best one? What's the most amazingly convincing prophecy fulfillment you've got?

Take a good look at them and you will see that they relate to many details in the life of Jesus Christ. Are you trying to tell me that the New Testament was 'made up' to fit with the prophecies that had, for hundreds of years, sat unfulfilled in the Hebrew scriptures?

Yes, yes that's precisely what I'm suggesting. And many of the prophecies are so vague, like the one from Genesis we just reviewed, that any number of creative "fulfillments" could be devised to fit them.

Do you realise what would be involved to pull off such a deception?

Not a whole lot, to be blunt. Do you realize how many people have claimed this or that person or event fulfilled Biblical prophecy throughout history? And how diverse such claims have been for the past 2+ millenia? And the irony is, for all the ones you don't believe in, you see them exactly as I see your claims that Jesus fulfilled prophecy.

What exactly do you believe can be trusted as history? Was Josephus a reliable source?

For the most part. Although unfortunately we know that Josephus' writings have been passed down through the hands of Christian copyists, who tampered with Josephus' original words (pretty much all mainstream historians of the time period acknowledge this). So one has to be discerning when reading Josephus on anything relating to Christianity.

Was Tacitus a reliable source?

I'm not an expert on the topic, although I'm aware he was a Roman historian in the 1st-2nd centuries. Assuming he was a basically reliable source, what do you think Tacitus proves? That Jesus was executed? Mkay. Let's grant that a guy named Jesus was executed in the 1st century. Now what?

Why do you not trust the New Testament, when the people who gave testimony to the events were clearly present at the time?

First of all, we have no clue who "gave testimony to the events" reported in the Gospels. None. Zip. Zero. The Gospels do not name their sources. So that's one good reason not to trust them.

Second of all, from a purely common sense perspective, on near every page of their texts, the Gospels purport events to have occurred that are wildly absurd and at odds with everything we know about how the world works. So that's another really good reason not to trust them.

Third of all, the Gospels were written by Christians and are works of apologetics. Thus their ability to provide unbiased reports of the events of the life of a man they regard as their Lord and Savior is obviously suspect. So that's another reason not to trust them.

Fourth, from a literary perspective the Gospels look exactly like myth, and clearly were written by people who were familiar with other myths (both Jewish and Greek) and attempted to emulate them (a common motif of ancient writing was to take an existing myth and put a new spin on it from the perspective of one's own culture/religion). Read some secular scholarship on the parallels between the Gospels and the Odyssey, or the Gospels and the Elijah-Elisha narrative. This is not the way history is written. This is the way myth is written. So that's yet another reason not to trust them.

I believe the Bible to be the perfect source of evidence for God. The integrity of the book is determined by its inner structure, consistency, coherence and truth. That is why it is possible to argue a case from the scriptures without contradiction.

A narrative can be internally consistent/without contradiction and still be wrong. Now personally I don't think the Bible is internally consistent at all, but even if that were the case, that wouldn't demonstrate that the Biblical narrative(s) are true. That is why you must look outside the text to rationally determine what parts of the text are or aren't accurate.

Evidence that Jesus Christ is alive and well is derived from the life of the Church, which exists as the body of Christ on earth.

Oy, RS. :facepalm:

The fact that Christianity exists is not evidence that Jesus is alive and well. That doesn't make any sense, RS. Is the existence of Islam evidence that Muhammad was a true prophet? Is the existence of Scientology evidence that L. Ron Hubbard's writings are true? Think through what you're saying. It's not rational, RS.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
No big deal. He came back to life after three days, didn’He?
It is like paying a million to save your friends, knowing you will get the full amount back after the weekend.

everybody would do that.

ciao

- viole
Even with the assurance of faith, Jesus still had to go through the ordeal of crucifixion and death. Do you think that was easy?
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Knowledge of God? Yes? Why do you need freedom from sin? Big boys and girls should be mature enough to take their licks when they do something wrong. Christianity turned from being a Way to help others to a Way to get undeserved gold stars.
If a man had successfully completed ALL the law of Moses, in righteousness, it would not have been necessary for God to dwell on earth as a man. God came to earth because He was the only one that could complete the whole law righteously, and make an acceptable sacrifice for the sin of mankind.

The way of Christ, in Spirit and truth, continues (IMO) to be the only way of perfect love.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Yes, yes that's precisely what I'm suggesting. And many of the prophecies are so vague, like the one from Genesis we just reviewed, that any number of creative "fulfillments" could be devised to fit them.
I have supplied you with a list of prophecies that TOGETHER point, IMO, to only one person, Jesus.

So, let's imagine that you now live in the first century and that you wish to create a LIE. You wish to deceive people into thinking that the 'Suffering Servant' of Hebrew prophecy has arrived. How do you go about your task? Do you write a book and then claim that events took place in reality? Who is going to believe you without some physical evidence of those people having existed? Where are your eye-witnesses? What testimonies do you have, and are they consistent?

As an experiment, try to write a birth account of the Suffering Servant from what you understand of the Hebrew scriptures. Then tell me how you intend to convince Jews that he lives.
 

Left Coast

This Is Water
Staff member
Premium Member
I have supplied you with a list of prophecies that TOGETHER point, IMO, to only one person, Jesus.

If when you individually examine them, they don't amount to much, they don't magically create a better case when you put them in a list. 1,000 pieces of crap don't make a mountain of gold.

So again I ask you - what is the best prophecy you've got for me? Hit me with it.

So, let's imagine that you now live in the first century and that you wish to create a LIE.

This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how most religions (and myths) start. The founder(s) don't "lie." Lying means means intentionally saying things that you know aren't true. Most people who start new religions genuinely believe what they say. So you're off on the wrong foot from the get-go here.

What often happens is that you start with a real person or event in history, and stories about that person or event build over time to be more and more fantastical. We know from other real world examples that this process can take place extremely quickly. Google the cargo cults.

You wish to deceive people into thinking that the 'Suffering Servant' of Hebrew prophecy has arrived. How do you go about your task? Do you write a book and then claim that events took place in reality? Who is going to believe you without some physical evidence of those people having existed? Where are your eye-witnesses? What testimonies do you have, and are they consistent?

As an experiment, try to write a birth account of the Suffering Servant from what you understand of the Hebrew scriptures. Then tell me how you intend to convince Jews that he lives.

Do you believe the Greek myths about figures like Zeus and Hercules and Aphrodite? Why? Why not? When myths place these figures in history and mention them going to real places, for example, do you think that makes them more plausible?
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
You missed something, God is the greatest objective reality.
But if that were true, you could show God to me, give me the definition of God which would allow us an objective test as to whether any real entity was God or not.

Yet no one's done either of those things that I'm aware of. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't appear to know.
In him we live, move and have our being like it it not. The spirit of the Father can be approached at the interface of our subjective mind. You will need to do the work to find God as opposed to the amount of effort that you put into telling other people that they haven’t found God.
I didn't say that. I said they, and you, do not appear to have found a god with objective existence.

And you state again that "God" is not a real entity but a subjective experience, that's to say, taking place not in the world external to the self, where real things are found, but only as part of an individual's mentation.

So now I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about.
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
But if that were true, you could show God to me, give me the definition of God which would allow us an objective test as to whether any real entity was God or not.

Yet no one's done either of those things that I'm aware of. Correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't appear to know.
I didn't say that. I said they, and you, do not appear to have found a god with objective existence.

And you state again that "God" is not a real entity but a subjective experience, that's to say, taking place not in the world external to the self, where real things are found, but only as part of an individual's mentation.

So now I'm not sure what we're disagreeing about.
If God inhabits the circle of infinity, what technique could a finite use to encapsulate an existential absolute in a presentation for you?

“God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality. Always will we know him because we trust him, and our belief in him is wholly based on our personal participation in the divine manifestations of his infinite reality.” UB 1955

The spirit mind of God is experienceable in the subjective mind of man. That’s where you would need to look.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
If God inhabits the circle of infinity, what technique could a finite use to encapsulate an existential absolute in a presentation for you?
Not my problem. There are no known examples of true infinity in reality. For infinity (and Cantorian infinities) you need the wholly conceptual world of maths.
“God is so all real and absolute that no material sign of proof or no demonstration of so-called miracle may be offered in testimony of his reality. Always will we know him because we trust him, and our belief in him is wholly based on our personal participation in the divine manifestations of his infinite reality.” UB 1955
That sounds like a made-to-order excuse, and necessarily implies an unreal God, solely conceptual / imaginary.

I emphasize that for God to be real, [he] must be found in the world external to the self, nature, not for any other reason than that's what 'real' means. And the God mentioned above is expressly not found in nature, the point I've been making all along.
The spirit mind of God is experienceable in the subjective mind of man. That’s where you would need to look.
Only for a conceptual or imaginary god,

For God to qualify as real, [he] has to exist in nature, no? Otherwise the way [he] exists can't be objectively distinguished from the way Superman, Voldemort or Mickey Mouse exist, can he? If so, what's the objective test?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Not my problem. There are no known examples of true infinity in reality. For infinity (and Cantorian infinities) you need the wholly conceptual world of maths.
That sounds like a made-to-order excuse, and necessarily implies an unreal God, solely conceptual / imaginary.

I emphasize that for God to be real, [he] must be found in the world external to the self, nature, not for any other reason than that's what 'real' means. And the God mentioned above is expressly not found in nature, the point I've been making all along.
Only for a conceptual or imaginary god,

For God to qualify as real, [he] has to exist in nature, no? Otherwise the way [he] exists can't be objectively distinguished from the way Superman, Voldemort or Mickey Mouse exist, can he? If so, what's the objective test?
No, nature is simply the habit of God. God is spirit.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
So, let's imagine that you now live in the first century and that you wish to create a LIE. You wish to deceive people into thinking that the 'Suffering Servant' of Hebrew prophecy has arrived. How do you go about your task?
I live in the US, a nation where a President said that his crowd at the inauguration was the biggest ever and it was laughably a lie. I live in a country where people attacked Congress because the former president said he was still president. It is DEPRESSINGLY easy to get a nation to embrace flat out falsehood.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
No, nature is simply the habit of God. God is spirit.
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't the slightest evidence for that, do you?

And doesn't the problem remain that if God is pure spirit then God is not real, since 'spirit' refers to a conceptual / imaginary being, and not to a being found in nature?
 

Colt

Well-Known Member
Please correct me if I'm wrong, but you haven't the slightest evidence for that, do you?

And doesn't the problem remain that if God is pure spirit then God is not real, since 'spirit' refers to a conceptual / imaginary being, and not to a being found in nature?
God is the source of all reality, material and spiritual. All energy lanes, all gravity lanes, all mind, all life of diverse orders.
 

blü 2

Veteran Member
Premium Member
God is the source of all reality, material and spiritual. All energy lanes, all gravity lanes, all mind, all life of diverse orders.
To me that sentence is meaningless ─ the key word "God" might as well be "Superman".

To you it's meaningful.

So I doubt we're going to agree.

Go well.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
But Jesus broke laws.
No, he did not. Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath, but, as he said to the Pharisees, all priests work on the Sabbath.

The works that Jesus did on the Sabbath saved life, because, through healing, individuals were brought to faith and salvation.

It is also worth noting that man's weekly Sabbath is not God's millennial rest.
 
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viole

Ontological Naturalist
Premium Member
Even with the assurance of faith, Jesus still had to go through the ordeal of crucifixion and death. Do you think that was easy?
Who can say? If I had been Him I would have probably miracolously turned off the complete nervous system, or applied local anesthesia. If I can walk on liquid water, that should have been a piece of cake.

For sure He had huge advantages against normal people that didn’t have that luxury. Think of people tortured and killed in war, or in a dictatorship. Think of real heroes who die for their country, their families, they accept all that and still do not betray their partners, etc. They are admirable, not your Jesus who was just alive and kicking after a mere couple of days, and ready to rule the Universe with Big Daddy protecting Him all the time.

but in any case, I would stop saying « He died for our sins » since that, as we have seen, was not a real sacrifice. Maybe, He got hurt for our sins, instead?

ciao

- viole
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
I live in the US, a nation where a President said that his crowd at the inauguration was the biggest ever and it was laughably a lie. I live in a country where people attacked Congress because the former president said he was still president. It is DEPRESSINGLY easy to get a nation to embrace flat out falsehood.
This issue needs to be looked at carefully because the records that are found in the New Testament are not tweets!

The NT books are full of events, quotations, place names, geographical references and notable historical figures, all of which encourage further research.

The information in the New Testament offers opportunity for study and reflection. And, at a spiritual level, every word written needs to be digested and meditated upon.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
Who can say? If I had been Him I would have probably miracolously turned off the complete nervous system, or applied local anesthesia. If I can walk on liquid water, that should have been a piece of cake.



For sure He had huge advantages against normal people that didn’t have that luxury. Think of people tortured and killed in war, or in a dictatorship. Think of real heroes who die for their country, their families, they accept all that and still do not betray their partners, etc. They are admirable, not your Jesus who was just alive and kicking after a mere couple of days, and ready to rule the Universe with Big Daddy protecting Him all the time.

but in any case, I would stop saying « He died for our sins » since that, as we have seen, was not a real sacrifice. Maybe, He got hurt for our sins, instead?

ciao

- viole
I think you have this very wrong.

Jesus experienced pain and suffering like any other man. He WAS beaten, spat upon, mocked and tortured. Read Psalm 22 and you'll get an impression of what it felt like to crucified!

This was not a walk in the park! Jesus knew that death was his intended path, but his agony in prayer in Gethsemane, where he perspired blood, demonstrates the intensity of the struggle between his humanity and the Spirit to which he was obedient.
 

Redemptionsong

Well-Known Member
If when you individually examine them, they don't amount to much, they don't magically create a better case when you put them in a list. 1,000 pieces of crap don't make a mountain of gold.

So again I ask you - what is the best prophecy you've got for me? Hit me with it.



This is a fundamental misunderstanding of how most religions (and myths) start. The founder(s) don't "lie." Lying means means intentionally saying things that you know aren't true. Most people who start new religions genuinely believe what they say. So you're off on the wrong foot from the get-go here.

What often happens is that you start with a real person or event in history, and stories about that person or event build over time to be more and more fantastical. We know from other real world examples that this process can take place extremely quickly. Google the cargo cults.



Do you believe the Greek myths about figures like Zeus and Hercules and Aphrodite? Why? Why not? When myths place these figures in history and mention them going to real places, for example, do you think that makes them more plausible?
The first question regarding prophecy is whether you accept any of the prophecies of scripture. Isaiah, for example, prophesied the rise of Cyrus, by name, well before Cyrus' birth.

The prophets also prophesied the rise of the great empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, Greece and Rome.

Once you realise that prophecy occurs, and that these accurate predictions could not have been forecast by men without God's Spirit, one is forced to look again at the predictions made about the future Messiah.

To me, Psalm 22 speaks eloquently about the events of the crucifixion. Jesus could not have engineered the details of his own death, so his words from the cross, quoting the opening words of Psalm 22, is an amazing confirmation of his understanding of God's will. All other people present at the time had difficulty understanding why he made this reference.
 

Kelly of the Phoenix

Well-Known Member
No, he did not. Jesus was accused of breaking the Sabbath, but, as he said to the Pharisees, all priests work on the Sabbath.

The works that Jesus did on the Sabbath saved life, because, through healing, individuals were brought to faith and salvation.

It is also worth noting that man's weekly Sabbath is not God's millennial rest.
Yes he did. He broke the Sabbath. He dishonored his parents to the point that he disowns them publicly in favor of his congregation. He vandalized stuff and killed a herd of pigs (pretty sure the swineherd wasn't thrilled). He ASSAULTED people with a WHIP. He was racist (which to me is breaking any sense of morality). He was a hypocrite ("Don't pray in public. I'm about to pray in public."). He was like your average televangelist ("I don't care about the poor as long as I get an expensive oil rubdown from the hot chick.").

This issue needs to be looked at carefully because the records that are found in the New Testament are not tweets!
They're about as reliable. Also, name one monologue from Jesus. Doesn't he almost always talk in relatively short quips?

The NT books are full of events, quotations, place names, geographical references and notable historical figures, all of which encourage further research.
So does the Mahabharata, which frankly is a much better written story.
 
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