Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus?

[Redemptionsong]

If you have sufficient evidence that Jesus can be trusted, you don't need faith anymore. I trust that my car will turn on in the morning when I put the key in the ignition and turn it. The reason I believe that is because I have literally thousands of examples of it working, and can readily demonstrate it to anyone who wants to come see. It would be bizarre, I think, to call that "faith." Faith gets invoked when we don't have that kind of robust evidence of something we believe, but we dogmatically believe it anyway.



The brutal truth, as I see it, is that you read a book that people told you speaks for God but was written by men. And that book claims there is a perfect being who created you, but who will punish you forever because you are imperfect so you need to be "saved." But you don't have any good reason to believe any of those things are actually true. You believe them on faith because of a feeling of love that came over you while reading the Gospels.



Which change has Christ made that you discovered? Please distinguish between what Christ has done and what belief in Christ has done.

Jesus Christ is not a car. He is a person, and, as with all people, you develop trust through experience of what a person says and does.

Even the wildlife in my garden learns to trust in gradual steps. It takes time for a wild bird to feed from my hand.

As for the Bible and its prophecies, l cannot even imagine how an individual could create a successful deception over 1500 years using 40 or more different writers. Yet, that is what you are claiming when you say that the Bible is a book written by men and not a book revealed by God.

I only have to read the Bible to discover a long history of Israel, and find evidence of an unbroken narrative that leads to the present day. This is not a myth but a reality that cannot be denied. It's within this national framework, lsrael, that the Messianic prophecies emerge.

 

[Redemptionsong]

Of course.

How so?

 

[Left Coast]

Jesus Christ is not a car. He is a person, and, as with all people, you develop trust through experience of what a person says and does.

But we have no evidence that Jesus currently says or does anything. The Bible wasn't even written by him. It was written by men who wrote down what he allegedly did - and on almost every page is a claim of something that is completely implausible. So trusting "Jesus" fails any analogy to trusting a real living person as well.

As for the Bible and its prophecies,

Which prophecies?

I only have to read the Bible to discover a long history of Israel, and find evidence of an unbroken narrative that leads to the present day.

That doesn't make sense, RS. Why would you think you only need to read one book full of implausible claims to learn the history of Israel? Wouldn't it behoove you to look outside the book at the actual evidence of history, and what else is written, to figure out whether the claims of the book you're reading match reality?

This is not a myth but a reality that cannot be denied.

The majority of humans on Earth deny that it's reality, so that is manifestly untrue.

It's within this national framework, lsrael, that the Messianic prophecies emerge.

Do you mean the modern secular nation-state of Israel?

 

[Clara Tea]

( Luke 3:15-18 - baptism of Christ Jesus by the holy spirit and fire)

So that's why I smell a wet dog at baptisms and something roasting at funerals. I just assumed that they were going to meet Jim and Tammy Fay Bakker (and I could smell the baking).

 

[blü 2]

Obviously, if there is a substance that we cant see then I wouldn't be able to show it to you.

It's not just a matter of not being able to see it. It's a matter of being totally unable to detect it in reality at all, isn't it?

Exactly as if it didn't exist except as a concept, a thing imagined?

God is a subjective experience, it is only there that God is found.

Doesn't that fit rather exactly with what I'm saying?

Atheist know this

I can and do accept that what is thought of as the experience of God is personal and internal.

I'm pointing out that this doesn't make it real. On the contrary, it underlines the fact that the experience is purely mental, purely internal, does not reflect reality.

And since we find belief in supernatural beings in just about every culture around the world, and since there's no consistency in what is said about what they are, what they do, how they function, and so on, it supports the generalization that the supernatural is an artifact of other aspects of evolved human thinking ─ perhaps as benefiting tribal solidarity and cooperation (something humans are uniquely good at) by supporting the individual sense of identity and belonging, along with sharing language, customs, stories and heroes; and perhaps also as an artifact of the evolved human instinct to provide instant answers to questions as a survival mechanism, hand in hand with curiosity, about natural phenomena, whether the sun, the night sky, weather, drought and plenty, good and bad luck, fertility, birth and death.

 

[viole]

Justice appeals to reason, but mercy does not.

Jesus did not have to sacrifice himself to save others. He did so in obedience to his Father's will, because his Father so loved the world. The acceptability of Jesus' sacrifice led to the resurrection, and, ultimately the offer of life to those who turn in faith. Such mercy to the sinner defies logic and is like burning coals on the conscience of the unworthy.

No big deal. He came back to life after three days, didn’He?
It is like paying a million to save your friends, knowing you will get the full amount back after the weekend.

everybody would do that.

ciao

- viole

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

1. Some suggest that Jesus as described in the Bible didn't even exist, and that the biblical accounts of his life are purely fabrications.
2. Some suggest that Jesus was real and was crucified, but his followers fabricated the story of his resurrection.
3. Maybe Jesus was hung on a cross, but never actually died, and after swooning for a while, somehow recovered.
4. Maybe those who claimed to have had seen post-mortem appearances of Jesus were hallucinating, or something of that nature.

I'm more of a 3 person. The fact they thought a comatose girl was actually dead shows they didn't have a good idea of what counted as dead. We have people who can't do that NOW, even with EEGs and EKGs. If Jesus had been beheaded instead of crucified, which some people do for funsies every Easter, we wouldn't have this conversation. Not even Jesus could fix beheading. Ask John the Baptist.

As for 4, it doesn't bother you that people who had hung out with him in close proximity for months if not years DIDN'T RECOGNIZE HIM? Sure, maybe he looked like ground hamburger meat given what the Romans supposedly did to him, but in the resurrection stories, he DOESN'T. He only has a few wounds. Sounds like there were people claiming to be Jesus post crucifixion and stabbed themselves in relatively easy spots to convince people who didn't know him. After all, the bible says Thomas touched the wounds in his hands IIRC, but the problem is that crucified people were nailed in the wrists.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

But some of them did claim to be eyewitnesses.

And yet they include stories they weren't present for. This would be laughed out of any responsible court.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

If the Bible is accurate, Jesus knew what was going to happen and could theoretically have fled rather than accept the suffering.

He did. On multiple occasions. Until he got caught. He and the apostles talked big about giving their lives for their beliefs but they ALL ran. ALL OF THEM, EVEN PAUL.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

I understand you. For me its too random.

In my story I'm writing, the logo is a coded reference to his code name "Sign of Jonah". Jesus and the disciples were on the run a large part of the time and the bible frequently uses stories and metaphors to code what they actually think about something happening at the time they write it.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Of course. But do those faiths offer freedom from sin and knowledge of God?

Knowledge of God? Yes? Why do you need freedom from sin? Big boys and girls should be mature enough to take their licks when they do something wrong. Christianity turned from being a Way to help others to a Way to get undeserved gold stars.

 

[Kelly of the Phoenix]

Jesus chose the cross instead.

The Romans chose it for him.

 

[Subduction Zone]

He did. On multiple occasions. Until he got caught. He and the apostles talked big about giving their lives for their beliefs but they ALL ran. ALL OF THEM, EVEN PAUL.

Paul? Do you mean Peter? Paul was an enemy of the Christians until his road to Damascus claim.

 

[Colt]

It's not just a matter of not being able to see it. It's a matter of being totally unable to detect it in reality at all, isn't it?

Exactly as if it didn't exist except as a concept, a thing imagined?
Doesn't that fit rather exactly with what I'm saying?
I can and do accept that what is thought of as the experience of God is personal and internal.

I'm pointing out that this doesn't make it real. On the contrary, it underlines the fact that the experience is purely mental, purely internal, does not reflect reality.

And since we find belief in supernatural beings in just about every culture around the world, and since there's no consistency in what is said about what they are, what they do, how they function, and so on, it supports the generalization that the supernatural is an artifact of other aspects of evolved human thinking ─ perhaps as benefiting tribal solidarity and cooperation (something humans are uniquely good at) by supporting the individual sense of identity and belonging, along with sharing language, customs, stories and heroes; and perhaps also as an artifact of the evolved human instinct to provide instant answers to questions as a survival mechanism, hand in hand with curiosity, about natural phenomena, whether the sun, the night sky, weather, drought and plenty, good and bad luck, fertility, birth and death.

My point was that Atheist tend to deny the possibility that other forms of celestial life exists. Light without heat, particle waves for which we have no detection devices.

To the human eye, when you see a blue object, in truth you are seeing the surface of particles that are absorbing all light except blue which is bouncing off the object into your retinas which send signals to your brain. Both the object and your brain are almost completely filed with space. Its just beyond silly for you to state that there are no other forms of life with mind and many other kinds of sensory perception.

Religions do evolve and those primitive religions are the "scaffolding" for revealed religion and by "design".

 

[Psalm23]

The Romans chose it for him.

Jesus knew what was coming. He didn’t have to face the cross but he did.

 

[blü 2]

My point was that Atheist tend to deny the possibility that other forms of celestial life exists. Light without heat, particle waves for which we have no detection devices.

But Mickey Mouse could just as credibly be said to exist in the same way, no? An entire zoo of Things that I choose to invent and imagine would all have that argument available to them, and in my view, none of them credible as real entities on that account.

To the human eye, when you see a blue object, in truth you are seeing the surface of particles that are absorbing all light except blue which is bouncing off the object into your retinas which send signals to your brain. Both the object and your brain are almost completely filed with space. Its just beyond silly for you to state that there are no other forms of life with mind and many other kinds of sensory perception.

Until you produce one, it's not silly in the slightest to ask for evidence of what appears to be an entirely unevidenced claim.

 

[Colt]

But Mickey Mouse could just as credibly be said to exist in the same way, no? An entire zoo of Things that I choose to invent and imagine would all have that argument available to them, and in my view, none of them credible as real entities on that account.
Until you produce one, it's not silly in the slightest to ask for evidence of what appears to be an entirely unevidenced claim.

You need to find God on your own. One day, if you are lucky, you will get tired of listening to your own ego and begin to listen for God. For now you are impressed with your own limited self.

 

[blü 2]

You need to find God on your own. One day, if you are lucky, you will get tired of listening to your own ego and begin to listen for God. For now you are impressed with your own limited self.

My ego has nothing to do with it.

You admit God isn't real, doesn't have objective existence, is only found conceptually or in imagination, yet you want to pass that off as real.

Neither 'purely conceptual' nor 'purely imaginary' is 'objectively real'.

 

[Colt]

My ego has nothing to do with it.

You admit God isn't real, doesn't have objective existence, is only found conceptually or in imagination, yet you want to pass that off as real.

Neither 'purely conceptual' nor 'purely imaginary' is 'objectively real'.

You missed something, God is the greatest objective reality. In him we live, move and have our being like it it not. The spirit of the Father can be approached at the interface of our subjective mind. You will need to do the work to find God as opposed to the amount of effort that you put into telling other people that they haven’t found God.

 

[Redemptionsong]

But we have no evidence that Jesus currently says or does anything. The Bible wasn't even written by him. It was written by men who wrote down what he allegedly did - and on almost every page is a claim of something that is completely implausible. So trusting "Jesus" fails any analogy to trusting a real living person as well.



Which prophecies?



That doesn't make sense, RS. Why would you think you only need to read one book full of implausible claims to learn the history of Israel? Wouldn't it behoove you to look outside the book at the actual evidence of history, and what else is written, to figure out whether the claims of the book you're reading match reality?



The majority of humans on Earth deny that it's reality, so that is manifestly untrue.



Do you mean the modern secular nation-state of Israel?

Ok, let's look at some of the prophecies to the coming of the Messiah, written in the Tanakh, which I believe to be about Jesus Christ.
Here are some that refer to the first advent:
Prophecies of the Suffering Servant
1. Genesis 3:15 > Galatians 4:4; 1 John 3:8. The seed of the woman.
2. Genesis 12:3 > Matthew 1:1; Acts 3:25; 18:18; 22:18; Galatians 3:16. The seed of Abraham.
3. Genesis 17:19; 21:12 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Hebrews 11:17-19. The seed of Isaac.
4. Genesis 28:14; Numbers 24:17,19 > Matthew 1:2; Luke 3:34; Revelation 22:16. The star out of Jacob who will have dominion.
5. Genesis 49:10 > Matthew 1:2-3; Luke 3:33; Hebrews 7:14. A descendant of Judah.
6. 2 Samuel 7:12-13; Isaiah 9:6 (7); Jeremiah 23:5 > Matthew 1:1,6; Acts 11:23; Romans 1:4. A descendant of David and heir to his throne.
7. Micah 5:1 (2) > John 11, 14; 8:58; Ephesians 1:3-14; Colossians1:15-19; Revelation 5:11. The Messiah’s eternal existence.
8. Psalm 2:7; Proverbs 30:4 > Matthew 3:17; Luke 1:32. The Messiah is the Son of God.
9. Isaiah 9:5-6 (6-7); Jeremiah 23:5-6 > Romans 10:9; Philippians 2:9-11. The Messiah bears God’s own name.
10. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1, 16,19; Luke 3:1,23. Coming 483 years after the rebuilding of the wall in Jerusalem.
11. Micah 5:1(2) > Matthew 2:1; Luke 2:4-7. Messiah will be born in Bethlehem, Judea.
13. Psalm 72:10-11 > Matthew 2:1-11. Adored by great persons.
14. Isaiah 40: 3-5; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 3:1-3; Luke 1:17; 3:2-6. Announced by prophet.
15. Isaiah 11:2; 61:1; Psalm 45:8 (7) > Matthew 3:16; John 3:34; Acts 10:38. Anointed with the Spirit of God.
16. Deuteronomy 18:15,18 > Acts 3:20-22. A prophet like Moses.
17. Isaiah 61:1-2 > Luke 4:18-19. Proclaims liberty and the acceptable year of the Lord.
18. Isaiah 35:5-6; 42:18 > Matthew 11:5 and throughout the Gospels. Ministry of healing.
19. Isaiah 8:23 – 9:1 (9:1-2) > Matthew 4:12-16. A ministry in Galilee.
20. Isaiah 40:11; 42:3 > Matthew 12:15,20; Hebrews 4:15. Be tender and compassionate.
21. Isaiah 42:2 > Matthew 12:15-16,19. Be meek and unostentatious.
22. Isaiah 53:9 > 1 Peter 2:22. Be sinless and without guile.
23. Isaiah 53:12; Psalm 69:10 > Romans 15:13. Bear the reproaches due to others.
24. Psalm 110:4 > Hebrews 5:5-6. Be a priest.
25. Zechariah 9:9 > Matthew 21:1-11; Mark 11:1-11. Enter Jerusalem on the foal of an ***.
26. Haggai 2:7-9; Malachi 3:1 > Matthew 21:12-24; Luke 2:27-38, 45-50: John 2:13-22. Enter the Temple with authority.
27. Isaiah 49:7; Psalm 69:5 (4) > John 7:48; 15:24-25. Be hated without cause.
28. Isaiah 53:2; 63:3; Psalm 69:9 (8) > Mark 6:3: Luke 9:58; John1:11, 7:3-5. Rejected by his own people.
29. Psalm 118:22 > Matthew 21:42; John 7:48. Rejected by the Jewish leadership.
30. Psalm 2:1-2 > Acts 4:27. Plotted against by both Jews and Gentiles.
31. Psalm 41:9; 55:13-15 (12-14) >Matthew 26:21-25, 47-50; John 13:18-21; Acts 1:16-18. Betrayed by a friend.
32. Zechariah 11:12 > Matthew 26:15. Sold for 30 pieces of silver.
33. Zechariah 11:13 > Matthew 27:7. Have his price given for a potter’s field.
34. Zechariah 13:7 > Matthew 26:31,56. Forsaken by his disciples.
35. Micah 4:14 (5:1) > Matthew 27:30. Struck on the cheek.
36. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:30. Spat on.
37. Psalm 22:8-9 (7-8) > Matthew 27:31, 39-44, 67-68. Mocked.
38. Isaiah 50:6 > Matthew 26:67; 27:26,30. Beaten.
39. Psalm 22:17; Zechariah 12:10 (16) > Matthew 27:35; Luke 24:39; John 19:18, 34-37; 20:35; Revelation 1:7. Crucifixion.
40. Psalm 22:16 (15) > John 19:28. Thirsty during crucifixion.
41. Psalm 69:22 (21) > Matthew 27:34. Given vinegar to quench thirst.
42. Exodus 12:46; Psalm 34:21 (20) >John 19:33-36. Executed without a bone broken.
43. Isaiah 53:12 > Matthew 27:38. Considered a transgressor.
44. Daniel 9:24-26 > Matthew 2:1; Luke 3:1,23. ‘Cut off, but not for himself’.
45. Isaiah 53:5-7, 12 > Mark 10:45; John 1:29; 3:16; Acts 8:30-35. Atone for the sins of mankind.
46. Isaiah 53:9 > Matthew 27:57-60. Buried with the rich when dead.
47. Isaiah 53:9-10; Psalm 2:7; 16:10 > Matthew 28:1-20; Acts 2:23-36; 13:33-37; 1 Corinthians 11:4-6. Raised from the dead.
48. Psalm 16:11; 68:19 (18); 110:1 > Luke 24:51; Acts 1:9-11; 7:55; Hebrews 1:3. Ascend to the right hand of God.
49. Zechariah 6:13 > Romans 8:34; Hebrews 7:25-8:2. Exercise his priestly office in heaven.
50. Isaiah 28:16; Psalm 118:22-23 > Matthew 21:42; Ephesians 2:20; 1 Peter 2:5-7. The cornerstone of God’s spiritual temple.
51. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1 > Acts 10:45. Sought after by Gentiles as well as Jews.
52. Isaiah 11:10; 42:1-4; 49:1-2 > Matthew 12:21; Romans 15:10. Accepted by the Gentiles.

Take a good look at them and you will see that they relate to many details in the life of Jesus Christ. Are you trying to tell me that the New Testament was 'made up' to fit with the prophecies that had, for hundreds of years, sat unfulfilled in the Hebrew scriptures? Do you realise what would be involved to pull off such a deception?

What exactly do you believe can be trusted as history? Was Josephus a reliable source? Was Tacitus a reliable source? Why do you not trust the New Testament, when the people who gave testimony to the events were clearly present at the time?

I believe the Bible to be the perfect source of evidence for God. The integrity of the book is determined by its inner structure, consistency, coherence and truth. That is why it is possible to argue a case from the scriptures without contradiction.

Evidence that Jesus Christ is alive and well is derived from the life of the Church, which exists as the body of Christ on earth.