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Evidence God Is

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Don't you have to assume that something will work a particular way before you program it? The programmer is who makes it work, based on his ideas and methods of input.
Sure. Input and output, but the design of the final algorithm is up the the underlying algorithm to produce on its own. It's a bit like an experiment recently where the AI bots developed a hide-and-seek algorithm on their own: Full Page Reload

This emergent behavior was not programmed.

Think of it this way, the genetic code reacts to the environment, that's it's input and output. But it it changes through mutations and recombinations and selection and eventually the DNA code has changed to better respond to the environment. That's how genetic algorithms work as well. The end result isn't programmed. It emerges.

I'm not saying God couldn't have created. I am saying God is not considered in science - methodological naturalism, that is.
Sure. But maybe scientists are still believers in a God, just not always the same Creationist God that you believe in. There are many different views, aspects, and ideas of what and who God is. My view of God is defined by the world he/she/it created, and I modify my views accordingly to what/who God is, instead of modifying science to fit an old image.

Think of this, Genesis says God commanded the oceans, sky, and land to produce life. In your Windows machines there's something called a command prompt. If you open that and give the computer a command, it doesn't mean you wrote the program you started. It only means you gave the command to the computer to do it. God perhaps commanded the world to produce life through evolutionary/genetic algorithms.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Evolution is a natural process of change and selection. Increase a pool of variation through a process, then select what to keep and what not to keep, and repeat. That process does work, as I said above, because it has been used and is used in other kinds of production.
Take a machine, for example.
You know how it works, so you can simply write a program that does not destroy the machine, but keep it functioning, why making it upgrade itself.
You don't have all the facts about living organism, so you have to guess, on what you think or would like to expect, whereas things may be quite different to your expectations.
That's why experiments, such as with fruit flies, and bacteria have been carried out with some surprising results.
Then we have the mutants that have barriers, etc.
It's only assumed that things will work as the programmer expects.
 

Ouroboros

Coincidentia oppositorum
Take a machine, for example.
You know how it works, so you can simply write a program that does not destroy the machine, but keep it functioning, why making it upgrade itself.
You don't have all the facts about living organism, so you have to guess, on what you think or would like to expect, whereas things may be quite different to your expectations.
That's why experiments, such as with fruit flies, and bacteria have been carried out with some surprising results.
Then we have the mutants that have barriers, etc.
It's only assumed that things will work as the programmer expects.
Well, I've said my piece. Take it or leave it, but there's not much more I can do to explain it. Hopefully, I left something for you to think about. :)
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
Sure. Input and output, but the design of the final algorithm is up the the underlying algorithm to produce on its own. It's a bit like an experiment recently where the AI bots developed a hide-and-seek algorithm on their own: Full Page Reload

This emergent behavior was not programmed.

Think of it this way, the genetic code reacts to the environment, that's it's input and output. But it it changes through mutations and recombinations and selection and eventually the DNA code has changed to better respond to the environment. That's how genetic algorithms work as well. The end result isn't programmed. It emerges.


Sure. But maybe scientists are still believers in a God, just not always the same Creationist God that you believe in. There are many different views, aspects, and ideas of what and who God is. My view of God is defined by the world he/she/it created, and I modify my views accordingly to what/who God is, instead of modifying science to fit an old image.

Think of this, Genesis says God commanded the oceans, sky, and land to produce life. In your Windows machines there's something called a command prompt. If you open that and give the computer a command, it doesn't mean you wrote the program you started. It only means you gave the command to the computer to do it. God perhaps commanded the world to produce life through evolutionary/genetic algorithms.
I hope you understand what I am getting at, in my previous post.
I will get back to you later to see if I can make it clearer for you.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
@Valjean
I don't know of any system that has specific functioning components, that are specifically arranged, and directed by specific commands that must be followed, in order to reach specific goals, that was not designed by an intelligence.
I'll assume you're asking about life-forms. I'm unsure of what you mean by "specific commands," though. Are you talking chemistry or conscious, intentional, magical commands?
If you drip glycerin onto potassium permanganate it will catch on fire. Was it 'commanded' to burn? I would vote no.

Finally, "specific goals:" Are you implying that evolution has goals? No scientist says that. It all happens automatically. Like a leaf falling into a river. The leaf has no goal of reaching the sea, and no-one is consciously directing it.
Chemistry and physics just are, there is no evidence of consciousness behind them.
Do you know of any? I don't mind if you show me.
That's the design I am referring to, not the complexity.
Well, would you say maize or cauliflower were designed? Chihuahuas? In a way, they were -- by us, and by the same culling of dysfunctional traits used by Natural selection.
Natural selection explains the 'designs' we see in nature, without having to appeal to an invisible magician.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
I'll assume you're asking about life-forms. I'm unsure of what you mean by "specific commands," though. Are you talking chemistry or conscious, intentional, magical commands?
If you drip glycerin onto potassium permanganate it will catch on fire. Was it 'commanded' to burn? I would vote no.

Finally, "specific goals:" Are you implying that evolution has goals? No scientist says that. It all happens automatically. Like a leaf falling into a river. The leaf has no goal of reaching the sea, and no-one is consciously directing it.
Chemistry and physics just are, there is no evidence of consciousness behind them.
Well, would you say maize or cauliflower were designed? Chihuahuas? In a way, they were -- by us, and by the same culling of dysfunctional traits used by Natural selection.
Natural selection explains the 'designs' we see in nature, without having to appeal to an invisible magician.
Is glycerin part of the design of potassium permanganate?
What I mean is, are the two chemicals components of an object? No

Is the leaf and the river components of an object? No.
You really don't know what I am talking about?

I thought I was being clear. Did you read the spoiler, 'What is design?' in the OP?
I am talking about an object... with different components.... each component having different functions.... carrying out specific functions... based on specific instructions... all to a particular end / goal.
The object does not need to be man-made, but can be - like a helicopter, for example. Or it could be other - a bird, a human, etc.

Does that help?
Signing off for now.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
My thought from my religious opinions is that there are nature spirits fostering and overseeing the development of life.

How about one Creative Spirit? And here’s why:

Because all life has the same building “codes”! Even totally disparate organisms, share genes and processes so similar, they are all thought to descend from one organism!

How is this evidence? It doesn't follow.

It segues when you follow the conversation, and not take it out of context. Or did you do that on purpose?
 
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Phaedrus

Active Member
It always interests me how believers confuse the claim for proof. The personal evidence claim, after all, is merely evidence for the individual of what is occurring in his mind, but in no way is it proof to anyone else regarding the natural order of reality.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
It always interests me how believers confuse the claim for proof. The personal evidence claim, after all, is merely evidence for the individual of what is occurring in his mind, but in no way is it proof to anyone else regarding the natural order of reality.

I always find it ironic when creationists post "evidence" threads and then demonstrate that they have no understanding of what reliable evidence is. Worse yet if you try to educate them as to what evidence is you are suddenly the bad guy.
 

Valjean

Veteran Member
Premium Member
Don't you have to assume that something will work a particular way before you program it? The programmer is who makes it work, based on his ideas and methods of input.

I'm not saying God couldn't have created. I am saying God is not considered in science - methodological naturalism, that is.
But nothing is programmed. It all happens automatically.
You read about peppered moths in biology. What was programmed there? There is variation in reproduction, and the environment the the organism chances to be in selects which traits are beneficial, and they tend to increase in a population. There's no need for any guidance or purpose.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
It always interests me how believers confuse the claim for proof. The personal evidence claim, after all, is merely evidence for the individual of what is occurring in his mind, but in no way is it proof to anyone else regarding the natural order of reality.
I don't think I heard anyone claim evidence if proof, other than non-believers. This is what I was trying to point out in this post.
It seems to me the evidence all around us, which some claim is proof of evolution is all in their mind (when I say evolution, I am of course referring to major evolution changes - i.e. fish to lizard).
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
But nothing is programmed. It all happens automatically.
You read about peppered moths in biology. What was programmed there? There is variation in reproduction, and the environment the the organism chances to be in selects which traits are beneficial, and they tend to increase in a population. There's no need for any guidance or purpose.
o_O
I think we are using two different books, looking at two different Chapters, on two different pages.
I am referring to a computer program, not nature.
Also, I am not talking about change in size, texture, or color.
You are not saying the computer program created itself automatically, of course.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
I understand that these algorithms use what's already there and working.

What the algorithms do, essentially, is optimization for a given set of parameters. And it accomplishes that by applying the principles of biological evolution. Reproduce and mutate, get a score in a fitness test, repeat using the "best performers".

Just like in biological evolution, it can only work with what exists, that is correct.
It can't go "back to the drawing board". It can only move forward by tinkering with the systems that are already in place.


They do not explain how the communication started and progressed without a planner.

They don't have to, either. They aren't even meant to. That's not what they are for.

"I think God creating physics" is out of the question, where science is concerned, as I am sure you probably know better than I do.

Not really "out of the question". Rather: "there's no reason to think so".
If you supply good reasons to think so, science will happily adopt it.

But just because someone believes it, is off course not a good reason.

Besides that, I have to say, I don't see anything showing that evolution emerged from anything...

What do you mean by that exactly?
Evolution isn't something that "has to emerge from something", it seems to me.

Evolution is simply what inevitably happens when you have systems that reproduce with variation, are in a struggle for survival and find themselves in competition with peers over limited resources...

This is why genetic algorithms work... All such an algorithm really does, is model those things / implement that logic. Reproduction with variation by the best performers and then subject the "new generation" to a fitness test. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat.... Until a "local optimum" is reached.

It has very wide application. In various instances, such a blind algorithm proved to be very much better then human engineers to come up with workable solutions to design problems.

at least not evolution on the level of major change

Evolution doesn't work on the level of "major change".
Evolution always works on the level of "micro change". So micro, that it's barely - if at all - noticeable generation by generation with the naked eye.

The thing is though, that evolution is a gradual process. These micro-changes accumulate over generations. And as the saying goes: lot's of small fish, make up for a big whale.

"major change" in evolution, is thus accomplished by accumulation of many many micro changes over prolonged periods of time (ie: over the generations).


Persons do claim there is evidence, but I don't see it.

Probably because you have a very warped idea of how evolution works.
If your idea on how this process works is faulty, then obviously you won't recognise the evidence in support of it.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Don't you have to assume that something will work a particular way before you program it? The programmer is who makes it work, based on his ideas and methods of input.

As a software engineer who's actually worked with genetic algorithms, I can tell you that your idea of it is wrong.

All we do is implement the core logic of biological evolution. I'll try to explain in english as condensed as possible.

Suppose the there is design problem with a liquid distribution system.

Imagine a room. In one wall, there are 3 entry points. In the other wall, there is an exit point. What you as an engineer need to do, is build a pipe system that connects the entry points to the exit point. Suppose there are various parameters here. For example, there might be requirements concerning pressure at the exit point.
So the design problem, is about how you lay the pipes. What angle? Where do you put the corners? How do the 3 entry points come together to attach to the exit point? Your design choices are going to affect pressure etc.

You can solve this problem with a GA.
First, you need what is called a "chromosome". This is actually the hardest part of implementing such an algoritm. This "chromosome" is essentially an encoded datastring which describes the system; how exactly the piping is done. This could be called the "genotype".

"mutating" this "chromosome" would in practical terms consist of changing a character in the encoded string.
Then there is a method that will "unpack" the datastring. This would be going from "genotype" to "phenotype". The phenotype is what is subjected to a fitness test. One of the parameters for example could be "what's the pressure at the exit point?".


So, what does the programmer actually model in this algorithm?
1. the chromosome. The "genotype". And that in terms of structure, not in terms of encoding. The chromosomes of generation 1 could essentially be generated randomly. Usually though, in practice, they'll start with "the best" design that the human engineers came up with and optimize that one with the algorithm. But it will also work if you start with randomized strings - it will just take longer for the algorithm to complete as a lot more generations will be required.

2. the "unpack" logic to move from genotype to phenotype. I put it as nr2, but it's essentially part of 1 in a way. When deciding on the structure of the chromosome, you'll automatically have the logic for unpacking it. I put it as an extra point, because you'll have to write the unpack method.

3. the fitness test. after the phenotype is unpacked, you have a model of a candidate system that can be tested on performance. The candidate gets a fitness score.

4. the reproduction method. This essentially consists of taking the "top performers", recombining their chromosomes and introduce mutations. This results in a new generation, which then again is subjected to a fitness test.



So, in summary, what is being programmed is not a "design". Not even an intended outcome. What is being programmed is rather an "environment" in which designs are tested, and logic that applies principles of evolution (reproduction, mutation, fitness testing)

The important part to remember here, is that the design that the algorithm comes up with, is entirely the merrit of the algorithm. The programmer didn't "program" the outcome. What the programmer made, is really no more or less then an optimzation module / search heuristic. It's the program itself that comes up with optmized solutions.

I'm not saying God couldn't have created. I am saying God is not considered in science - methodological naturalism, that is.

Sure. Neither are pixies.
That can be turned around by giving science good reasons for taking it into consideration.

But there aren't any, so....
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Take a machine, for example.
You know how it works, so you can simply write a program that does not destroy the machine, but keep it functioning, why making it upgrade itself.
You don't have all the facts about living organism, so you have to guess, on what you think or would like to expect, whereas things may be quite different to your expectations.
That's why experiments, such as with fruit flies, and bacteria have been carried out with some surprising results.
Then we have the mutants that have barriers, etc.
It's only assumed that things will work as the programmer expects.

Honestly, I have no clue what you are trying to say.
In context of a conversation on biological evolution, none of this seems to make any sense...

Could you try and rephrase?
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
Is glycerin part of the design of potassium permanganate?
What I mean is, are the two chemicals components of an object? No

Is the leaf and the river components of an object? No.
You really don't know what I am talking about?

I thought I was being clear. Did you read the spoiler, 'What is design?' in the OP?
I am talking about an object... with different components.... each component having different functions.... carrying out specific functions... based on specific instructions... all to a particular end / goal.
The object does not need to be man-made, but can be - like a helicopter, for example. Or it could be other - a bird, a human, etc.

Does that help?
Signing off for now.
Sounds like you are going out of your way to try and come up with a definition of "design" that is specifically tailored to make living systems fit into it.

As in: you're trying to paint the bullseye around the arrow.
 

TagliatelliMonster

Veteran Member
o_O
I am referring to a computer program, not nature.

And you're wrong about the computer program using GA's also.

Also, I am not talking about change in size, texture, or color.

You actually are. As I explained to you previously, "major evolutionary change" doesn't actually happen. What actually happens is the accumulation over generations of micro evolutionary change. Which eventually, by gradual accumulation, results in major change.

You are staring yourself blind on this idea of "fish to lizard" and you find that to be "unbelievable". A fish never gave birth to a lizard that crawled out of the sea. Instead, this is a process of millions of years of fish adapting to ever more shallow waters over time, until it was able to actually peek on land and eventually come out of the water, then going through a semi-aquatic/land creature for yet another few million years (like Tiktaalik) until it finally stayed on land and didn't need toreturn into the water anymore.

These are time periods that our human minds, wich are trained to deal with seconds, minutes, days, weeks, months or a few years, cannot have any affinity with. Off course it's going to sound "unbelievable" to you. Just like how quantum mechanics and relativity is going to feel weird / unbelievable. It's completely out of our "common every day experience".

So try and scale down a little and keep in mind the gradual nature of the process instead.

Consider this example right here, as an analogy:

upload_2019-9-25_13-33-12.png


You are not saying the computer program created itself automatically, of course.

Sure, but biology is not a program.
GA is a program and it models the way biology works.

I can also program a 3d environment that models gravity. In fact, every game developer does this. That doesn't mean that space-time and gravity are programs. Or required any programming.
 

nPeace

Veteran Member
What the algorithms do, essentially, is optimization for a given set of parameters. And it accomplishes that by applying the principles of biological evolution. Reproduce and mutate, get a score in a fitness test, repeat using the "best performers".

Just like in biological evolution, it can only work with what exists, that is correct.
It can't go "back to the drawing board". It can only move forward by tinkering with the systems that are already in place.




They don't have to, either. They aren't even meant to. That's not what they are for.



Not really "out of the question". Rather: "there's no reason to think so".
If you supply good reasons to think so, science will happily adopt it.

But just because someone believes it, is off course not a good reason.



What do you mean by that exactly?
Evolution isn't something that "has to emerge from something", it seems to me.

Evolution is simply what inevitably happens when you have systems that reproduce with variation, are in a struggle for survival and find themselves in competition with peers over limited resources...

This is why genetic algorithms work... All such an algorithm really does, is model those things / implement that logic. Reproduction with variation by the best performers and then subject the "new generation" to a fitness test. And repeat. And repeat. And repeat.... Until a "local optimum" is reached.

It has very wide application. In various instances, such a blind algorithm proved to be very much better then human engineers to come up with workable solutions to design problems.



Evolution doesn't work on the level of "major change".
Evolution always works on the level of "micro change". So micro, that it's barely - if at all - noticeable generation by generation with the naked eye.

The thing is though, that evolution is a gradual process. These micro-changes accumulate over generations. And as the saying goes: lot's of small fish, make up for a big whale.

"major change" in evolution, is thus accomplished by accumulation of many many micro changes over prolonged periods of time (ie: over the generations).




Probably because you have a very warped idea of how evolution works.
If your idea on how this process works is faulty, then obviously you won't recognise the evidence in support of it.
Okay. How long does it take for evolution to take place in one of these algorithms. Can I have a look at your best one. Just supply a link to it. Thanks.
 
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