Evidence God Is

[TagliatelliMonster]

Cars don't reproduce with variation. You really don't understand the mechanisms of evolution.

In his defense, he was referring to the example I shared of a genetic algoritm that evolves cartoon cars in a 2d environment.

HTML5 Genetic Algorithm 2D Car Thingy - Chrome recommended

 

[TagliatelliMonster]

Natural selection is almost a tautology. Something so obviously true that it is hard to even come up with a way to test it. Natural selection only says that the individuals best suited to an environment are the ones most likely to pass on their genes. Let's take some extreme examples. We have three antelopes on the Serengeti. One has three legs and cannot run that fast, one has five and tends to trip itself, one has four. On a plain full of lions, which one is most likely to pass its genes on?

The one that God chooses to protect from the lions!!!!

What do I win?

 

[Polymath257]

I must not be reading too well.
The human engineer comes up with a design which he / she considers the best to start with, but has mot programmed his little program to start with an assumption that his best will be reached. ... not to mention, all the thousands of times it is ran.
Oh,,, my... head hurts.

Correct, you are not reading too well.

They start with the best that *humans* can do. Then, they use the computer to make 'random' adjustments, and determine if those adjustments are better or worse than what the human did. Do this a hundred times, and take the best result (which likely won't be the one the human made). Then make random changes to *that new* design. Do that a hundred times and pick the best one. Repeat this process a thousand times.

The end result will be significantly better than the initial human design.

 

[Polymath257]

I'm asking for the natural selection w/ mutations algorithm. Thanks.

Any genetic algorithm will have both. By necessity, since evolution requires both mutation (which produces variation) and selection (which eliminates bad variants).

 

[Ouroboros]

Any genetic algorithm will have both. By necessity, since evolution requires both mutation (which produces variation) and selection (which eliminates bad variants).

Exactly, otherwise it isn't a genetic algorithm.

On a different note, not regarding GAs but AI. Today, we make software that can learn things, and not only learn but to know how to do things better than us.

Example, my son works in AI. When he did his degree he wrote a program that used the AI services at Google, and had a program that learned to play a game, to a point where the game got many times higher scores than my son (or me) could get. The AI learned to play better than us. And that was just a simple project. What he does now... Skynet?

 

[nPeace]

Correct, you are not reading too well.

They start with the best that *humans* can do. Then, they use the computer to make 'random' adjustments, and determine if those adjustments are better or worse than what the human did. Do this a hundred times, and take the best result (which likely won't be the one the human made). Then make random changes to *that new* design. Do that a hundred times and pick the best one. Repeat this process a thousand times.

The end result will be significantly better than the initial human design.

Thank you very much. Finally someone who understands what I was saying. Sadly, he makes the accusation (with no basis) that I am not reading too well. nPeace, just ignore.
I will reread that when my head allows me to read it well. Right now it's taking a moment to relax.

Any genetic algorithm will have both. By necessity, since evolution requires both mutation (which produces variation) and selection (which eliminates bad variants).

Fine. So can you help me with one - an algorithm, that is - that can tell me how long it takes for evolution to take place?
If it's just adapting to the environment, like adapting different features, like beak size etc., don't bother.
I'm looking for something on a greater scale than that.

 

[Polymath257]

Fine. So can you help me with one - an algorithm, that is - that can tell me how long it takes for evolution to take place?

Well, the question betrays a lack of understanding what the term 'evolution' means. It is simply change in the population over time. That's it. And that type of change happens all the time.

If it's just adapting to the environment, like adapting different features, like beak size etc., don't bother.

But that is *precisely* what evolution is. As the environment changes, the characteristics for being adapted changes, so the species change.

The analogy is with languages. Every generation understands the language of both their parents and their children. But, nonetheless, language change dramatically over time. French, Spanish, and English simply didn't exist 2000 years ago. But small changes over the generations added up to lead to completely new languages from Latin, Old Saxon, etc.

I'm looking for something on a greater scale than that.

Then you are missing something basic. At each point in time, and even over several generations, evolution is *precisely* adaptation. But, environments change over long time periods, so the species, in order to stay adapted, also have to change. Often that means using some organ for a different use than previously, and that means that organ NOW adapts in a different direction.

 

[Ouroboros]

Fine. So can you help me with one - an algorithm, that is - that can tell me how long it takes for evolution to take place?

That's a strange question to ask. Evolution is a constant process, happening all the time around you as we speak. You know, each time you go to the bathroom for a #2, there are literally thousands of new mutations of bacteria. In other words, you're an active producer and contributor to evolution on a daily basis.

If it's just adapting to the environment, like adapting different features, like beak size etc., don't bother.
I'm looking for something on a greater scale than that.

Evolution is about the extremely small and simple process that results in large changes over time. How long time for how big change, it varies. There's no guarantee or definite outcome. And you don't know when or how or if a particular trait would evolve. It depends on many factors. It's a simple process, but a lot of things affects it. How fast mutations are going. What kind of environmental pressure, which either leads to a large variation in a gene pool or a huge selective event reducing the surviving genes.

 

[Valjean]

Oh. How am I supposed to know cars don't reproduce with variation? Thanks.

Has anyone ever seen a car reproduce? Can you conceive of any mechanism by which a car would reproduce? How would cars manufacture and assemble the parts and materials needed for a copy?

So right. Since I didn't know the above, how can I understand the mechanisms of evolution.
The mechanism of natural selection does not apply to manufactured items, yet I am given algorithms of manufactured items to demonstrate the mechanisms of evolution.

No. I did not learn this in school. Never heard of it until now.
I'll go learn about the basics of national selection, and see what I am missing.

Natural selection is only one of the basic mechanisms of evolution. It's talked about a lot because it's the mechanism that is adaptive. If you search "mechanisms of evolution" on You Tube you'll find dozens if lectures and videos explaining the various mechanisms.

...or natural Selection in particular:

And if they don't, where do they go?

Extinct, quite likely.

I could understand. Communication can be hard sometimes. I think listening is an art - whether spoken word, or written word, which we are not born with. It is learned.
I don't believe I said anything as you are suggesting here. I think 'best fit' and 'best design' are two different things. Do you? Fit and design don't appear to even match.

Depends how you define them. "Design" might imply a conscious, intentional designer, and the idea that there was some goal involved, so it can be confusing.

 

[Valjean]

That makes no sense.
Mutations is an intrinsic part of evolution as much as the selection process is.

Without mutation, there is no evolution.
Without selection, there is no evolution.

Mutation is just one aspect of evolution. Mating/heredity probably produces the most variation in a given generation.
And there's also Genetic Drift, Gene Flow, Sexual Selection, &c.

 

[Valjean]

Fine. So can you help me with one - an algorithm, that is - that can tell me how long it takes for evolution to take place?
If it's just adapting to the environment, like adapting different features, like beak size etc., don't bother.
I'm looking for something on a greater scale than that.

A greater scale is just a protracted smaller scale. As Polymath pointed out, Macroevolution is just accumulated microevolution -- like language changes. They're not two different things.

Rates of evolution vary tremendously. In a stable environment a successful species can stay pretty much the same for millions of years; introduce a change and you can quickly get adaptation/evolution.
In rapidly reproducing species like bacteria you can see visible changes in a few days:

In slower breeding species it can still happen pretty quickly, eg: Tube mosquitoes or "Nylon eating" bacteria.
Usually, though, it occurs over thousands or millions of years so, like language, we don't notice it in a human lifetime

 

[Valjean]

Is this supposed to teach me what algorithms are?

An algorithm is a sort of mathematical formula. Simple algorithms can produce great complexity.; infinite complexity, in fact.
Simple algorithm produces clock. Computer modeled:

I'm asking for the natural selection w/ mutations algorithm. Thanks.

Computer algorithmic siulation:

Evolution is much more complex than just a single algorithm, though. There are many processes at work.

Okay. How long does it take for evolution to take place in one of these algorithms. Can I have a look at your best one. Just supply a link to it. Thanks

See Bacterial growth video in post #451.

 

[nPeace]

Correct, you are not reading too well.

They start with the best that *humans* can do. Then, they use the computer to make 'random' adjustments, and determine if those adjustments are better or worse than what the human did. Do this a hundred times, and take the best result (which likely won't be the one the human made). Then make random changes to *that new* design. Do that a hundred times and pick the best one. Repeat this process a thousand times.

The end result will be significantly better than the initial human design.

Ooh, my head hurts.
Sorry Polymath. No comprende.

Any genetic algorithm will have both. By necessity, since evolution requires both mutation (which produces variation) and selection (which eliminates bad variants).

Okay.

Well, the question betrays a lack of understanding what the term 'evolution' means. It is simply change in the population over time. That's it. And that type of change happens all the time.

Hmmm. "Change in the population over time."
What does that term mean to me exactly. I see evolution everyday. Just look at us.
I think it's very important how we use our terms, otherwise we may have a communication problem.
Biological evolution refers to the cumulative changes that occur in a population over time.
I assume you are specifically referring to that.

But that is *precisely* what evolution is. As the environment changes, the characteristics for being adapted changes, so the species change.

Yes adaptation is evolution - depends on how far you take that, statement.
Climate change does result in a lot of evolution, does it not? Here are examples...

Mosquito Genes Explain Response To Climate Change
Scientists studying mosquitoes have produced the first chromosomal map that shows regions of chromosomes that activate -- and are apparently evolving -- in animals in response to climate change. The map will allow researchers to narrow their focus to identify specific genes that control the seasonal development of animals.
"Climate changes already are extending the growing seasons," Holzapfel said. "We know that portions of the country are becoming warmer and dryer than others. Plants and animals are not confronting this stress directly, but rather they are flowering, reproducing and going dormant at different times of the year than they used to. Many species will be unable to change quickly enough and will become extinct."

"Climate change will change the seasonal ecology of many animals," Bradshaw said. "Rather than having a bully coming to beat you up at recess everyday, you can take a body-building course and beat up the bully, or you simply can take recess at a different time. Many organisms are taking the latter course, using day length to guide them."

Mosquito evolves because of global warming
First Comes Global Warming, Then an Evolutionary Explosion
In a matter of years or decades, researchers believe, animals and plants already are adapting to life in a warmer world. Some species will be unable to change quickly enough and will go extinct, but others will evolve, as natural selection enables them to carry on in an altered environment...

The analogy is with languages. Every generation understands the language of both their parents and their children. But, nonetheless, language change dramatically over time. French, Spanish, and English simply didn't exist 2000 years ago. But small changes over the generations added up to lead to completely new languages from Latin, Old Saxon, etc.

Yes please. Change of environment, right?

Then you are missing something basic. At each point in time, and even over several generations, evolution is *precisely* adaptation. But, environments change over long time periods, so the species, in order to stay adapted, also have to change. Often that means using some organ for a different use than previously, and that means that organ NOW adapts in a different direction.

Some organ??? When you see it, let me know.
According to scientists, the universe has been undergoing climate changes for billions of years.
How much change, and how often, or quickly these changes occurred have never been directly observed.

Still, to be more precise, give me an example please, of an organ you have in mind.

That's a strange question to ask. Evolution is a constant process, happening all the time around you as we speak. You know, each time you go to the bathroom for a #2, there are literally thousands of new mutations of bacteria. In other words, you're an active producer and contributor to evolution on a daily basis.

Oops. Should have been more precise. How long does it take for a new species to evolve, in one of your genetic algorithms... if you know?

Evolution is about the extremely small and simple process that results in large changes over time. How long time for how big change, it varies. There's no guarantee or definite outcome. And you don't know when or how or if a particular trait would evolve. It depends on many factors. It's a simple process, but a lot of things affects it. How fast mutations are going. What kind of environmental pressure, which either leads to a large variation in a gene pool or a huge selective event reducing the surviving genes.

Do you mean like a mosquito?
Mosquito Genes Explain Response To Climate Change
Mosquito evolves because of global warming

....becoming a climate change wrestler? Does it build muscles? <Joking>
How many years have mosquitoes been beating climate change now? Isn't it about time they be like everything else and get a whole new body plan - so we can get rid of those pesky things.
...On second though... We don't want mosquitoes as big as a bird.

You do understand what I am getting at though, I hope.

Has anyone ever seen a car reproduce? Can you conceive of any mechanism by which a car would reproduce? How would cars manufacture and assemble the parts and materials needed for a copy?

Well I'll be a monkey's uncle.

Natural selection is only one of the basic mechanisms of evolution. It's talked about a lot because it's the mechanism that is adaptive. If you search "mechanisms of evolution" on You Tube you'll find dozens if lectures and videos explaining the various mechanisms.

...or natural Selection in particular:

I read Evolution 101.
Thanks for the videos, nonetheless.

Extinct, quite likely.

What? The mutation, or the organism? Pay me no mind.

Depends how you define them. "Design" might imply a conscious, intentional designer, and the idea that there was some goal involved, so it can be confusing.

Yes. I did pick up on your confusion.

A greater scale is just a protracted larger scale. As Polymath pointed out, Macroevolution is just accumulated microevolution -- like language changes. They're not two different things.

Rates of evolution vary tremendously. In a stable environment a successful species can stay pretty much the same for millions of years; introduce a change and you can quickly get adaptation/evolution.
In rapidly reproducing species like bacteria you can see visible changes in a few days:

In slower breeding species it can still happen pretty quickly, eg: Tube mosquitoes or "Nylon eating" bacteria.
Usually, though, it occurs over thousands or millions of years so, like language, we don't notice it in a human lifetime

Sounds to me more like extrapolation and conjecture.

However, I want to give you a chance to explain.
What lasts longer... the environmental change... the adaptation... or the population change?
If the adaptation lasts longer, how did the population survive?
If the population change lasts longer, how many environmental changes were required, and how often?
If the environmental change lasts longer, how many millions of years are we looking at, for accumulated changes, and how many?

Please explain why we don't find things like these, in the millions...

Sorry about the illustration. It's not meant to offend, just illustrate.

Also, please explain what environmental change was responsible for land creatures adapting to take to salt water, and salt water creatures taking to land.

Then help me to appreciate how you know this, please.
Oh, and please don't forget the dinosaur. I suppose they wanted to fly for some reason, but some didn't make the grade... or...
New dinosaur fossil challenges bird evolution theory

I'll look at the video later.

 

[nPeace]

An algorithm is a sort of mathematical formula. Simple algorithms can produce great complexity.; infinite complexity, in fact.
Simple algorithm produces clock. Computer modeled:

Computer algorithmic siulation:

Evolution is much more complex than just a single algorithm, though. There are many processes at work.
See Bacterial growth video in post #451.

Wow. Hard working guy.
What can I say, bu thanks. I do appreciate you taking the time to understand and respond appropriately to my posts.

Now I have plenty videos to watch, and lots of homework to do.

 

[Ouroboros]

Oops. Should have been more precise. How long does it take for a new species to evolve, in one of your genetic algorithms... if you know?

The taxonomy of biological life isn't as precise as you think. Mostly we group them in traits and compatibility. What exactly defines a "new species" isn't always a straightforward answer.

Look into the evolution of corn or the evolution of cabbage/cauliflower, and you can see it takes some time, usually not in a human life time. Speciation happens when there's a separation of a gene pool, and then there has to be variations in the environment making one group evolve traits the other group doesn't have.

Like the lizard on Galapagos islands (if I remember it correctly, it was a while ago I studied these things).

Do you mean like a mosquito?
Mosquito Genes Explain Response To Climate Change
Mosquito evolves because of global warming

Well, mutations happen all the time. Mutations don't respond to environment. Mutations just happen and the selective pressure will push one gene forward and force other genes back.

....becoming a climate change wrestler? Does it build muscles? <Joking>
How many years have mosquitoes been beating climate change now? Isn't it about time they be like everything else and get a whole new body plan - so we can get rid of those pesky things.
...On second though... We don't want mosquitoes as big as a bird.

You do understand what I am getting at though, I hope.

Not quite, but that's okay. It's good that the bugs are evolving to survive the climate change because a huge number of insects are disappearing currently. And it's affecting the ecological system as well.

 

[Polymath257]

Ooh, my head hurts.
Sorry Polymath. No comprende.

What is it you don't understand?

We start with some structure (made by humans in this case). Our goal is to optimize some property (energy savings, or minimize cost, or go as far as possible, or have as many children as possible, etc).

So, we look at that structure and generate 100 'children' by randomly changing that structure in some way for each child. These children will be different. Some will be better than the 'parent' and some will be worse *for the goal that was set*.

Of those 100 children, pick out the 10 that are the 'best' (according to the goal). Those 10 become the parents for the new generation.

Then have a second generation by randomly changing the children in the first generation and thereby producing 100 second generation children. Of these, select the 10 best.

Keep doing this for 1000 generations.

The result will often be *significantly* better than the original human design.

This is mutation (random changes) and selection (which is best by some measure).

In nature, the mutations are caused by all sorts of things, from radiation to chemical exposure, to sunlight. The selection is based on one thing: the ability to produce children. That i what requires adaptation to an environment.

Hmmm. "Change in the population over time."
What does that term mean to me exactly. I see evolution everyday. Just look at us.
I think it's very important how we use our terms, otherwise we may have a communication problem.
Biological evolution refers to the cumulative changes that occur in a population over time.
I assume you are specifically referring to that.

OK, you want more precision? Evolution is the *inheritable* changes in a population over time. These are the changes in the genes.

Yes adaptation is evolution - depends on how far you take that, statement.
Climate change does result in a lot of evolution, does it not? Here are examples...

Mosquito Genes Explain Response To Climate Change
Scientists studying mosquitoes have produced the first chromosomal map that shows regions of chromosomes that activate -- and are apparently evolving -- in animals in response to climate change. The map will allow researchers to narrow their focus to identify specific genes that control the seasonal development of animals.
"Climate changes already are extending the growing seasons," Holzapfel said. "We know that portions of the country are becoming warmer and dryer than others. Plants and animals are not confronting this stress directly, but rather they are flowering, reproducing and going dormant at different times of the year than they used to. Many species will be unable to change quickly enough and will become extinct."

"Climate change will change the seasonal ecology of many animals," Bradshaw said. "Rather than having a bully coming to beat you up at recess everyday, you can take a body-building course and beat up the bully, or you simply can take recess at a different time. Many organisms are taking the latter course, using day length to guide them."

Mosquito evolves because of global warming
First Comes Global Warming, Then an Evolutionary Explosion
In a matter of years or decades, researchers believe, animals and plants already are adapting to life in a warmer world. Some species will be unable to change quickly enough and will go extinct, but others will evolve, as natural selection enables them to carry on in an altered environment...


Yes please. Change of environment, right?

Yes, absolutely.

Some organ??? When you see it, let me know.

The panda's 'thumb' is a classic example. The mammalian inner ear is another.

According to scientists, the universe has been undergoing climate changes for billions of years.

I hope you mean the Earth, not the universe.

How much change, and how often, or quickly these changes occurred have never been directly observed.

Depends on what you mean by that. During human history, the changes in climate have been pretty small. We just haven't been around all that long. But we know about the ice ages. We know about previous hot ages, and we know we have both going back for at least hundreds of millions of years. And yes, we know when these happened.

Still, to be more precise, give me an example please, of an organ you have in mind.

I was thinking of the bone in the mammalian inner ear, which evolved from jaw bones of the reptile ancestors. And yes, we have the fossils showing the transition.

Oops. Should have been more precise. How long does it take for a new species to evolve, in one of your genetic algorithms... if you know?

Huh? In *biology* (which is not the same as genetic algorithms, although there are many analogies), new species can arise fairly quickly (a few generations), although they usually take thousands of generations. Sometimes even millions, depending on the species involved and the enviornments).

Do you mean like a mosquito?
Mosquito Genes Explain Response To Climate Change
Mosquito evolves because of global warming

....becoming a climate change wrestler? Does it build muscles? <Joking>
How many years have mosquitoes been beating climate change now? Isn't it about time they be like everything else and get a whole new body plan - so we can get rid of those pesky things.
...On second though... We don't want mosquitoes as big as a bird.

Mosquitoes, like ALL living things, are dependent on their genetics. And genetics just doesn't allow *every* sort of change that might optimize survival.

You do understand what I am getting at though, I hope.

Not a clue, actually.

What lasts longer... the environmental change... the adaptation... or the population change?
If the adaptation lasts longer, how did the population survive?
If the population change lasts longer, how many environmental changes were required, and how often?
If the environmental change lasts longer, how many millions of years are we looking at, for accumulated changes, and how many?

Once again, these are long term changes of the environment and of the genetics (adaptation). On a sale of millions of years, these changes happen in concert.

Please explain why we don't find things like these, in the millions...

Because the genetics usually doesn't allow such changes. Feathers don't arise all that often.

Again, evolution proceeds by using *existing* structures and genetics and changing them by *small* amounts from generation to generation.

And yes, these changes can, and often do, add up.

 

[Polymath257]

Apparantly there's an html5 version these days also

HTML5 Genetic Algorithm 2D Car Thingy - Chrome recommended

Don't know if it's from the same engineer, nore have I read about the algorithm on that one. I literally just found it.
It looks very alike though, so it seems as if it is just a new html5 version

This one works much better than the HTML5 version. Just saying.

One thing I find fascinating is how different the results can be from different runs. There is still optimization going on, but there are clearly several different 'fitness peaks'.

 

[Valjean]

Some organ??? When you see it, let me know.

Bat's wing, man's arm, horse's leg, dolphin's flipper, bird's wing -- all homologous.
Stephen Jay Gould "The Panda's Peculiar Thumb" 1978

According to scientists, the universe has been undergoing climate changes for billions of years.
How much change, and how often, or quickly these changes occurred have never been directly observed.

99.9% of what we know has never been directly observed, but we can draw conclusions from indirect evidence. We know how hot the interior of the sun is, as opposed to the outside. I doubt anyone ever stuck a thermometer into it.

I think you need to brush up on your knowledge of dating methods. We know a lot more about what happened when than you're apparently aware of.
What do we conclude if we dig down in a desert to a 5,000 year old level and find pollen and fossils from a temperate hardwood forest, then down another 5,000 years and find water lillies and terrapins; musk oxen and caribou at ten million years, and sharks and stromatolites at a hundred?

Still, to be more precise, give me an example please, of an organ you have in mind.

See above on limb homology.

Oops. Should have been more precise. How long does it take for a new species to evolve, in one of your genetic algorithms... if you know?

Could take five years, or 200 million. It depends. There are organisms today that haven't changed in billions of years, and there are species that didn't exist a century ago.
Punctuated equilibrium - Wikipedia

Sounds to me more like extrapolation and conjecture.

Which assertion, and how so?

However, I want to give you a chance to explain.
What lasts longer... the environmental change... the adaptation... or the population change?
If the adaptation lasts longer, how did the population survive?

I don't understand what you're asking. The adaptation is the population change, and an environmental change can last a week or a billion years.

If the population change lasts longer, how many environmental changes were required, and how often?

If a farmer mows a field, clears a forest or drains a pond these are environmental changes, and they can have major effects on populations. How long will they last? Who knows? The pond might fill up again with the next rainstorm, but the previous biological community could be gone forever. What could replace it? -- lots of possibilities.

If the environmental change lasts longer, how many millions of years are we looking at, for accumulated changes, and how many?

Again, I'm not following. Can you clarify?

Please explain why we don't find things like these, in the millions...

Sorry about the illustration. It's not meant to offend, just illustrate.

Sorry?! -- I love it! So cute.
I want one...

How can the answer to this not be obvious?
Evolution can't do a complete redesign, like a car company can. It can only tweak what already exists; make changes in already existing structures. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-an-org...ved-with-genetic-traits-from-multiple-species

Also, please explain what environmental change was responsible for land creatures adapting to take to salt water, and salt water creatures taking to land.

This question could be interpreted a hundred different ways. There could be one change, or a thousand, or none. It could just be an expansion into a new, promising ecological niche. Clarify?

Consider: Even today there are many land animals taking to the water. Water voles and Tapirs still spend most of their time on land, hippos and capybaras are a little more aquatic, River otters still more so, and sea otters have clearly said good bye to land, but at least can still run around on solid ground. Not so the whales, dolphins or sea snakes -- though the modified anatomy of a land animal can still be seen under their skin.
Coming out of the water? There are lots of fish that can take a stroll on land -- often for considerable distances. Mudskippers seem like they haven't decided decided whether they want to be fish or salamanders, and coconut crabs have given up the sea entirely except to deposit their eggs in the surf and quickly scramble back to land.

Then help me to appreciate how you know this, please.

Sorry, how I know what?

Oh, and please don't forget the dinosaur. I suppose they wanted to fly for some reason, but some didn't make the grade... or...

There's lots of speculation about how and why some dinos took to the air, and different groups could have gone airborn at different times and for different reasons.
New dinosaur fossil challenges bird evolution theory[/quote]OK, so?
Science is always accumulating new evidence. That's how it works. That's why the discipline is always evolving. That's why there are changes in each new edition of a science text.

I'll look at the video later.

OK, have fun.








[/quote]

 

[nPeace]

What is it you don't understand?

We start with some structure (made by humans in this case). Our goal is to optimize some property (energy savings, or minimize cost, or go as far as possible, or have as many children as possible, etc).

So, we look at that structure and generate 100 'children' by randomly changing that structure in some way for each child. These children will be different. Some will be better than the 'parent' and some will be worse *for the goal that was set*.

Of those 100 children, pick out the 10 that are the 'best' (according to the goal). Those 10 become the parents for the new generation.

Then have a second generation by randomly changing the children in the first generation and thereby producing 100 second generation children. Of these, select the 10 best.

Keep doing this for 1000 generations.

The result will often be *significantly* better than the original human design.

This is mutation (random changes) and selection (which is best by some measure).

In nature, the mutations are caused by all sorts of things, from radiation to chemical exposure, to sunlight. The selection is based on one thing: the ability to produce children. That i what requires adaptation to an environment.

Okay. Now ya talking.
All I was saying, is that you would not always get 10 of the best.
Random generations do not always produce 10. At times you may get 5, or even 1.
So, say you got 5, the chances of success are slimmer than 10, and when you add up more random generation, even slimmer.
So what I am saying, is that if you always start at 10, you assume that you will have thousands of 10s, thus increasing your chances of success even if 95% failed.
Cheating, I call it.

OK, you want more precision? Evolution is the *inheritable* changes in a population over time. These are the changes in the genes.


Yes, absolutely.


The panda's 'thumb' is a classic example. The mammalian inner ear is another.

Right. The uncertain stuff.

I hope you mean the Earth, not the universe.

That's correct.

Depends on what you mean by that. During human history, the changes in climate have been pretty small. We just haven't been around all that long. But we know about the ice ages. We know about previous hot ages, and we know we have both going back for at least hundreds of millions of years. And yes, we know when these happened.

There is also the meteorite strikes, right?

I was thinking of the bone in the mammalian inner ear, which evolved from jaw bones of the reptile ancestors. And yes, we have the fossils showing the transition.

Yes. The uncertainties that are inferred from a few fossils. I know of those.
The assumption are not new, and they keep coming.

Huh? In *biology* (which is not the same as genetic algorithms, although there are many analogies), new species can arise fairly quickly (a few generations), although they usually take thousands of generations. Sometimes even millions, depending on the species involved and the enviornments).

I was specifically asking about the algorithm, curious about how they worked in regard to timing. That's all.

Mosquitoes, like ALL living things, are dependent on their genetics. And genetics just doesn't allow *every* sort of change that might optimize survival.


Not a clue, actually.


Once again, these are long term changes of the environment and of the genetics (adaptation). On a sale of millions of years, these changes happen in concert.


Because the genetics usually doesn't allow such changes. Feathers don't arise all that often.

Again, evolution proceeds by using *existing* structures and genetics and changing them by *small* amounts from generation to generation.

And yes, these changes can, and often do, add up.

Yes I do agree 100%.

Of course, I don't mind letting the experts argue over what's a new species.
Are Darwin's Finches One Species or Many?
Darwin’s finches are icons of evolution, but scientists disagree about what exactly they represent.

To me, there are all of the same kinds.
Why, we have different noses. Our ears are different. I have seen some feet that looks strange to me, but at the end of the day, we are all the same kind.

 

[nPeace]

Bat's wing, man's arm, horse's leg, dolphin's flipper, bird's wing -- all homologous.
Stephen Jay Gould "The Panda's Peculiar Thumb" 1978

...Trying to determine where we are at...

so the species, in order to stay adapted, also have to change. Often that means using some organ for a different use than previously, and that means that organ NOW adapts in a different direction.

So what are you saying?
How have these adapted from what they were not, and when did you see it happen?

99.9% of what we know has never been directly observed, but we can draw conclusions from indirect evidence. We know how hot the interior of the sun is, as opposed to the outside. I doubt anyone ever stuck a thermometer into it.

Wow. That's a huge percent of what we know.
The more you think you know, the less you know, and scientists acknowledge this.

I think you need to brush up on your knowledge of dating methods. We know a lot more about what happened when than you're apparently aware of.
What do we conclude if we dig down in a desert to a 5,000 year old level and find pollen and fossils from a temperate hardwood forest, then down another 5,000 years and find water lillies and terrapins; musk oxen and caribou at ten million years, and sharks and stromatolites at a hundred?
See above on limb homology.
Could take five years, or 200 million. It depends. There are organisms today that haven't changed in billions of years, and there are species that didn't exist a century ago.
Punctuated equilibrium - Wikipedia
Which assertion, and how so?

You lost me here. I am talking about climate change. What are you talking about?

I don't understand what you're asking. The adaptation is the population change, and an environmental change can last a week or a billion years.
If a farmer mows a field, clears a forest or drains a pond these are environmental changes, and they can have major effects on populations. How long will they last? Who knows? The pond might fill up again with the next rainstorm, but the previous biological community could be gone forever. What could replace it? -- lots of possibilities.
Again, I'm not following. Can you clarify?

I am only trying to prompt you to be more exact in explaining what you mean, when you say, "A greater scale is just a protracted larger scale". I just threw out some wild question, to help,
I'm sure you are talking about evolution, but I can't read your mind on what's you are visioning.

Sorry?! -- I love it! So cute.
I want one...

There is always 3D printing.

How can the answer to this not be obvious?
Evolution can't do a complete redesign, like a car company can. It can only tweak what already exists; make changes in already existing structures. https://www.quora.com/Why-is-an-org...ved-with-genetic-traits-from-multiple-species

Exactly.

This question could be interpreted a hundred different ways. There could be one change, or a thousand, or none. It could just be an expansion into a new, promising ecological niche. Clarify?

Consider: Even today there are many land animals taking to the water. Water voles and Tapirs still spend most of their time on land, hippos and capybaras are a little more aquatic, River otters still more so, and sea otters have clearly said good bye to land, but at least can still run around on solid ground. Not so the whales, dolphins or sea snakes -- though the modified anatomy of a land animal can still be seen under their skin.
Coming out of the water? There are lots of fish that can take a stroll on land -- often for considerable distances. Mudskippers seem like they haven't decided decided whether they want to be fish or salamanders, and coconut crabs have given up the sea entirely except to deposit their eggs in the surf and quickly scramble back to land.

Sorry, how I know what?

There's lots of speculation about how and why some dinos took to the air, and different groups could have gone airborn at different times and for different reasons.

New dinosaur fossil challenges bird evolution theory
OK, so?
Science is always accumulating new evidence. That's how it works. That's why the discipline is always evolving. That's why there are changes in each new edition of a science text.

Okay. You basically answered. It is speculated, or assumed.

OK, have fun.

No thanks. I hate magic.