Evidence God Is

[Salvador]

The quest to find ET?

There's evidence of a higher intelligence than that of human intelligence, but nobody presently bound to Earth knows from where or whom this intelligence had evolved; it's a very perplexing enigma.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

natural, non-intelligent design.... natural, non-intelligent design....
In order to understand this, I had to take out non-intelligent. So what is natural design?
First, I think, one has to ask the question what is design, then ask the question, can design occur naturally?
What are your thoughts?


Neurons don't create thoughts.
Think of neurons as a conveyor belt. It passes information from one point to another.

The neurons are components of the complex "machine" - the brain.
If you remove the neurons from the brain, you have removed a central function, and drastically interfered with the design.
Patterns are created or followed, but they are not the design, even though they can be part of it.

For example, a sewing machine can be used to create patterns. You can also use patterns to guide the operation, but the design functions independently, because it was designed specifically to reach a particular goal.


Why do you think the doctor is right, and why do you believe this...




Why do we die? Why is death a natural or normal occurrence?
I believe what the Bible says about these things, because to me they fit the arteries and veins of truth running through the Bible. That's me. I don't expect it to be you.
So why we are on this again when we have been through it numerous times, beats me.
Can you give me an explanation for that?

Gosh. You get my point?

Sheesh. I'm a product of neuron issues.

 

[nPeace]

There's evidence of a higher intelligence than that of human intelligence, but nobody presently bound to Earth knows from where or whom this intelligence had evolved; it's a very perplexing enigma.

 

[QuestioningMind]

Please read the OP. I never said patterns.

I'm the one who mentioned patterns. And that you are mistakenly concluding that because there are patterns in nature that it somehow denotes a designer. I also pointed out that IF life was designed, it very often was designed with a serious lack of intelligence. Just take the laryngeal nerves in giraffes as an example of a VERY poor design.

 

[leroy]

Hm.


We dont inevent on purpose, though. Its what our brains do to survive.

They are illusory. I have a TedTalk video on this fact if youre interested.



How so?

Its just a theory that people are hoping to find god in a godless world. Grapping at straws for objective evidence than subjective conclusions; which, there is nothing wrong with.



It isnt innate. A lot of us have never wondered about it because we were not around people who do. Majority doesnt make god-feelings innate.

I only came about the meaning of life since I was on RF. I never questioned it until I started looking at my values and how I personally define my life. Then I realize the lesson of death when my aunt passed away this year and my grandmother not too long ago. Other experiences made me came to the conclusion there is no life after death; there is no supernatural soul.

What you are saying is drawing conclusions based on your need to find purpose whether suconsciously and/or not. That is fine but not everyone thinks that way.

It is literally what it is. Its up to us to make sense out of it.

What would you do if you found out you had no purpose and there was no design? Honestly?

Yes I am interested in that Ted talk

You don't seem to understand my point.

We all wonder about deep (and useless) philosophical stuff. .where did the universe came from? Are there other universes? Does God excist? ... I am sure you have wondered about these stuff.

However these stuff is selectivly useless, who cares if we ever answer those questions , that won't help our specie to survive.

So why did evolution and natural selection select unecesairly complex brains capable of wondering about useless philosophical stuff? Why wasting so much energy in the production of unecesairly mental processes?

If naturalism (and darwinism) where true, humans would not be capable of wondering about useless philosophical stuff ... however you are thinking about useless philosophical stuff when you make these "atheist arguments"

Just to be clear: with "useless" I mean useless in the context of evolution and natural selection , something is useless if it doesn't make us more likely to survive and reproduce.

 

[Unveiled Artist]

Yes I am interested in that Ted talk

You don't seem to understand my point.

We all wonder about deep (and useless) philosophical stuff. .where did the universe came from? Are there other universes? Does God excist? ... I am sure you have wondered about these stuff.

However these stuff is selectivly useless, who cares if we ever answer those questions , that won't help our specie to survive.

So why did evolution and natural selection select unecesairly complex brains capable of wondering about useless philosophical stuff? Why wasting so much energy in the production of unecesairly mental processes?

If naturalism (and darwinism) where true, humans would not be capable of wondering about useless philosophical stuff ... however you are thinking about useless philosophical stuff when you make these "atheist arguments"

Just to be clear: with "useless" I mean useless in the context of evolution and natural selection , something is useless if it doesn't make us more likely to survive and reproduce.

I'ma come back. Give you a perspective, I was sick most my childhood in hospital etc and wasn't raised in a religious household and environment. I went to church a couple years on my own and studies the bible but nothing spiritual. The closest spiritual thing I got at high school was hanging around with my Catholic friend for years.

About six years ago I had became Catholic or the wrong reasons. I knew more about spirituality through those years than my whole life. But I never asked where we came from and had a deep non superficial philosophical prayer about who and what god was.

Later in life, I started respecting religious truths and religions in general. I stopped going to church cause I felt it wrong to commune without being part of communion.

A lot of it was not spiritual in the sense that i believed what others did. I had my own interpretation until I accepted I do not believe deities exist no matter the design and how much I stare at the sky and am grateful being alive through surgery. Just isn't there.

When I came on RF I found people with many views and seekers and evangelist with so many views it got me interested in Why people believe as they do.

I've practiced Dharma for five some odd years off and on through a few lineages. The death question came four years back when my grandmother passed away and I experienced a mystic moment a week after. My aunt/my friend passed this year.

So, that's how I got to the "big questions" but I'm not a seeker of religions. I'm just me.

With the design, origin, god, and wonders of the universe apart from earth and self I never pondered away from the telescope.

So this and many conversations here are actually new. Sometimes I pick up a new spin on a repeated topic. But depends on how patient the other is and open to discuss.

Take your time reading this. Just give you background. I'ma find that video somewhere in my YouTube ones and some others you may like and return to your post.​

 

[nPeace]

I'm the one who mentioned patterns. And that you are mistakenly concluding that because there are patterns in nature that it somehow denotes a designer. I also pointed out that IF life was designed, it very often was designed with a serious lack of intelligence. Just take the laryngeal nerves in giraffes as an example of a VERY poor design.

Why do you and I always seem to have a communication problem?
I mean, it happens every time.

I said it once. I said it twice. Here is the third time.
I said nothing about patterns.
Therefore, for you to say this

you are mistakenly concluding that because there are patterns in nature that it somehow denotes a designer.

makes absolutely no sense, and is not relevant.

If I never concluded any such thing, how could that statement apply to this thread.
If you want to discuss patterns, it's off the topic, so I am not interested. Please reread this post until you understand it, and revisit the OP. I think they are both clear.
Do you recall when we first met, how it went? This is a repeat.

When we get that cleared up, I'll be quite pleased to discuss your bad design argument, on the laryngeal nerve.

 

[dfnj]

Nice post, @nPeace.

Even Einstein realized there was a “superior reasoning power” behind the complexity.

It seems to me there is an equal amount of evidence for chaos as there is order. It seems to me God is predominately indifferent.

 

[dfnj]

In the beginning God created
Was it designed?

If God designed my body then he is a sadist.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

It seems to me there is an equal amount of evidence for chaos as there is order. It seems to me God is predominately indifferent.

Yes, it is somewhat that way, isn't it?

Would you like to hear an understanding that I have of this mess?

 

[Hockeycowboy]

If God designed my body then he is a sadist.

It can't be that bad?!

 

[dfnj]

Yes, it is somewhat that way, isn't it?

Would you like to hear an understanding that I have of this mess?

Sure. I will give you my explanation first. Our Big Bang is the result of star collapsing to a previously existing space-time dimension. If you take into account the number of stars in our Universe capable of collapsing to a black hole, then multi-dimensional Time is really long. Over the essentially infinite numbers of big bang created space-time dimensions every possible quantum state is realized in every possible combination of sequences until every possible event that can occur does occur. The beauty in accepting this story for the data points is that every semantic possibility is realize, hence, the mind of God experiences omniscience.

This is why we have chaos in equal proportion to order. God is about experiencing unimaginable possibilities.

 

[sayak83]

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. - Genesis 1:1

According to the Bible, Jehovah Designed All Things
Of course, every house is constructed by someone, but the one who constructed all things is God. Hebrews 3:4

What is design?

Spoiler: Design

Design is the creation of a plan or convention for the construction of an object, system or measurable human interaction. Design has different connotations in different fields (see design disciplines [*]). In some cases, the direct construction of an object (as in pottery, engineering, management, coding, and graphic design) is also considered to use design thinking.



The way our body functions, gives evidence of purposeful design.
There are specification of a finished product, and "primitives" are the elements from which the design object is composed.
There are building blocks assembled according to "blueprints".

Biological evolution is a wholly satisfactory natural process that explains the existence of all these things you mention here. These are all examples of agent-less natural and spontaneous emergence of complex and functional systems. The evidence for this is vast and overwhelming, if one chooses to know about them.

 

[Milton Platt]

Nice post, @nPeace.

Even Einstein realized there was a “superior reasoning power” behind the complexity.

Excerpt from (Barnett, L.,) "The Universe and Dr. Einstein", Victor Gallancz Ltd, London, UK, p. 95, 1953.—
"My religion consists of a humble admiration of the illimitable superior spirit who reveals Himself in the slight details we are able to perceive with our frail and feeble minds. That deeply emotional conviction of the presence of a superior reasoning power, which is revealed in the incomprehensible universe, forms my idea of God."
(Capitalization of 'Himself' and 'God' were in the book.
Bold type is mine, to highlight.)

Also from Einstien in his last letter before his death:

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me," he wrote in January of 1954, just a year before his death.

 

[Cacotopia]

"im not fooled that easily" but you believe in intelligent design?

Or "I choose to believe whatever I want and ignore what everyone else says, ignore what facts say, ignore the tsunami of evidence refuting your claims", BUT have the audacity to tell everyone else that all that evidence is a lie.

g
t
f
o

You didn't make this thread to debate, you came here to parrot your ideas and close your ears and eyes to everything else.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Sure. I will give you my explanation first. Our Big Bang is the result of star collapsing to a previously existing space-time dimension. If you take into account the number of stars in our Universe capable of collapsing to a black hole, then multi-dimensional Time is really long. Over the essentially infinite numbers of big bang created space-time dimensions every possible quantum state is realized in every possible combination of sequences until every possible event that can occur does occur. The beauty in accepting this story for the data points is that every semantic possibility is realize, hence, the mind of God experiences omniscience.

This is why we have chaos in equal proportion to order. God is about experiencing unimaginable possibilities.

Well....that's interesting. Basically, you believe that with unlimited time and unlimited opportunities, everything could happen, including life, right?

I believe all the integrated systems we've discovered, working in harmony with the 4 fundamental forces, required an intelligence to start it all.

The understanding I have of why there's so much turmoil, is based on Genesis 3....While humans (A&E) were living in a utopian world, God's Sovereignty was challenged: A&E were told they could make their own decisions, and not have to listen to Jehovah God. When A&E chose to disobey, they gave the issue validity.

So, "can man rule himself?" became an issue. Jehovah has stayed out of human affairs, even removing His control over Earth's geologic and weather systems. He has given us a letter, i.e., the Bible, and at times protected those humans who have accepted His rule, like the Israelites and others, but for the most part, He has stayed away, allowing His alienated children to rule themselves. And His archenemy, the one who initially raised those issues in Eden, has been interfering in human rule (Exodus 7) ever since, and influencing and misleading mankind. -- Revelation 12:9

But I believe people escape all bad ills and influences, when they 'RIP' in death, and once that issue of sovereignty is settled, the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29) and given a future chance to live the perfect life God wanted for us here on this Earth, under His protection. All issues settled forever.

Take care.

 

[Hockeycowboy]

Also from Einstien in his last letter before his death:

"The word God is for me nothing more than the expression and product of human weakness, the Bible a collection of honorable, but still purely primitive, legends which are nevertheless pretty childish. No interpretation, no matter how subtle, can change this for me," he wrote in January of 1954, just a year before his death.

I've just read the entire letter, written to philosopher Erik Gutkind. It can be found here:
Letters of Note: The word God is the product of human weakness

The context is speaking entirely about the Jewish Religion and their monotheism of a personal God.
With one reference to Spinoza.

It in no way contradicts his opinions of a 'superior reasoning power.'

 

[dfnj]

Well....that's interesting. Basically, you believe that with unlimited time and unlimited opportunities, everything could happen, including life, right?

I believe all the integrated systems we've discovered, working in harmony with the 4 fundamental forces, required an intelligence to start it all.

The understanding I have of why there's so much turmoil, is based on Genesis 3....While humans (A&E) were living in a utopian world, God's Sovereignty was challenged: A&E were told they could make their own decisions, and not have to listen to Jehovah God. When A&E chose to disobey, they gave the issue validity.

So, "can man rule himself?" became an issue. Jehovah has stayed out of human affairs, even removing His control over Earth's geologic and weather systems. He has given us a letter, i.e., the Bible, and at times protected those humans who have accepted His rule, like the Israelites and others, but for the most part, He has stayed away, allowing His alienated children to rule themselves. And His archenemy, the one who initially raised those issues in Eden, has been interfering in human rule (Exodus 7) ever since, and influencing and misleading mankind. -- Revelation 12:9

But I believe people escape all bad ills and influences, when they 'RIP' in death, and once that issue of sovereignty is settled, the dead will be resurrected (John 5:28-29) and given a future chance to live the perfect life God wanted for us here on this Earth, under His protection. All issues settled forever.

Take care.

Your religion is too simplistic for me. I have a brain. I'm pretty sure God knew exactly what was going to happen to the apple in the garden with a naked woman prancing about.

It's not that I am irreverent, I'm trying very hard not to be, but religion is a funny thing. For example, why would you need "His protection" if you were already dead? The other thing is after you die, I'm pretty sure you have no need to eat or poop. Being a ghost or whatever you are after death seems to me would require a completely different way of thinking about yourself and your place in the world. Everything you value now, your value system, would be completely different without human needs brought about by physical existence.

 

[nPeace]

Biological evolution is a wholly satisfactory natural process that explains the existence of all these things you mention here. These are all examples of agent-less natural and spontaneous emergence of complex and functional systems. The evidence for this is vast and overwhelming, if one chooses to know about them.

Scientists give suggestions based on their suppositions and inferences about scientific studies. All of that is involved in science.
The overwhelming and vast evidence you speak of, is arrived at by using those suppositions.
Why do you speak of it as though it is proven, and therefore everyone should believe it?

I'll let you show me.
Give me the procedures used to arrive at these explanations - how about the nervous system.
I'll help a little...

On the Origin of The Nervous System
Summary
Peering back through the ages for a glimpse of the first nervous systems is no easy trick. In the seventh essay in Science's series in honor of the Year of Darwin, Greg Miller discusses some tantalizing clues that scientists have recently gained about the evolutionary origins of nervous systems. They've found that some of the key molecular building blocks of neurons predate even the first multicellular organisms. By looking down the tree of life, they are concluding that assembling these components into a cell a modern neuroscientist would recognize as a neuron probably happened very early in animal evolution, more than 600 million years ago. Most scientists agree that circuits of interconnected neurons probably arose soon thereafter, first as diffuse webs and later as a centralized brain and nerves. But the resolution on this picture is fuzzy. The order in which early branches split off the animal tree of life is controversial, and different arrangements imply different story lines for the origins and early evolution of nervous systems. Scientists also disagree on which animals were the first to have a centralized nervous system and how many times neurons and nervous systems evolved independently.

I've presented evidence myself. Isn't that the title of the thread?
Why don't you show me why my evidence is not strong.

"im not fooled that easily" but you believe in intelligent design?

Or "I choose to believe whatever I want and ignore what everyone else says, ignore what facts say, ignore the tsunami of evidence refuting your claims", BUT have the audacity to tell everyone else that all that evidence is a lie.

g
t
f
o

You didn't make this thread to debate, you came here to parrot your ideas and close your ears and eyes to everything else.

I am openly are fairly debating - giving everyone a chance to present their arguments.
I have not seen any tsunami of evidence in the first place. Did you present any?

Let me look

This theory has been torn apart dozens of times, but the same statements still get made. What is the point of even trying when no one listens in the first place.

That was your offer. Was that an attempt at debating? Was I supposed to debate that? How?

So why are you here, if it's not to debate?

 

[Cacotopia]

It's been offered it's out there do your hands work? You want it handed to you on a silver platter only to slap it down, I'm not wasting more of my time.