Evidence -- making it useful

[Brian2]

Too bad that just about every religion is lacking in those. Here let me post an article that should help The standards in this article are aimed at Christianity ,but changing the words slightly would make it apply to almost any religion:

Biblical prophecies

The article specifically attacks Biblical prophecies and Christianity.
We have seen that one of these prophecies, the Tyre prophecy, was fulfilled accurately. That same would go for other prophecies mentioned there also.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

In Bible is goes like this:

The same came to him by night, and said to him, “Rabbi, we know that you are a teacher come from God, for no one can do these signs that you do, unless God is with him.”
John 3:2

If I don’t do the works of my Father, don’t believe me. But if I do them, though you don’t believe me, believe the works; that you may know and believe that the Father is in me, and I in the Father.”
John 10:37-38

Don’t you believe that I am in the Father, and the Father in me? The words that I tell you, I speak not from myself; but the Father who lives in me does his works. Believe me that I am in the Father, and the Father in me; or else believe me for the very works’ sake.
John 14:10-11

If anyone desires to do his will, he will know about the teaching, whether it is from God, or if I am speaking from myself.
John 7:17

Thanks, but I can read the Bible for myself.

So, do you know anybody doing these "signs" (which means miracles in John 3:2) these days?

 

[Ella S.]

Yes someone could just be able to see the future, no God necessary.
And if many people over a period of a couple of thousand years all made prophecies which came true, and credited God with giving them those prophecies, would it be easier to just say that they could all tell the future instead of seeing a God behind it?
What are some of the countless possible explanations other than a God and why do you think that fewer assumptions would be involved in axing God than others of the countless possible explanations?
And why do the number of assumptions have anything to do with anything anyway?

Yes, assuming that they can somehow see the future and are merely claiming that the ability comes from God makes fewer assumptions than that God exists. In the latter case that God is giving them the prophecy, they can still see the future and they still claim that the ability comes from God, but there's the additional assumption that God exists.

So, via Occam's Razor, we go with the explanation that makes fewer assumptions, which doesn't include the existence of God.

ETA: The reason for going with the case that makes fewer assumptions is because every additional assumption we make lowers the likelihood of our conclusion, which can be demonstrated statistically by multiplying the conclusion by the likelihood of our assumption (default being 50%)

 

[Subduction Zone]

The article specifically attacks Biblical prophecies and Christianity.
We have seen that one of these prophecies, the Tyre prophecy, was fulfilled accurately. That same would go for other prophecies mentioned there also.

What? No, you never read it. The Tyre prophecy is perhaps the worst failed prophecy in the entire Bible...I use that one as an honesty test for Christians. How do you think that that one was fulfilled?

 

[idea]

Does that describe you?

I choose my groups carefully, am thankful for a healthy work environment. "By the people" with checks and balances to protect minorities seems to be a good model.

 

[idea]

Well, I have a considerably better view of the intention of religion than you.

Some groups try to make data-based logical decisions with input from all members of the group. Other groups use illogical authoritarian faith/peer-pressure conformity type decisions. I'm not a fan of authoritarian type groups - elder, bishop, priest, pope, prophet etc - no different than dictator/king.

 

[George-ananda]

Some groups try to make data-based logical decisions with input from all members of the group. Other groups use illogical authoritarian faith/peer-pressure conformity type decisions. I'm not a fan of authoritarian type groups - elder, bishop, priest, pope, prophet etc - no different than dictator/king.

A lot of that idea comes from a time when most people were uneducated and perhaps barely literate. They needed leaders who, hopefully, were well intentioned and intelligent,

Today, I think almost everyone in the western first world countries will say they think for themselves.

 

[Evangelicalhumanist]

The article specifically attacks Biblical prophecies and Christianity.
We have seen that one of these prophecies, the Tyre prophecy, was fulfilled accurately. That same would go for other prophecies mentioned there also.

I’m not even going to bother showing that the “Tyre prophecy” isn’t an accurate prediction of events – instead, I’ll let Ezekial do it for himself. Around sixteen years after his initial prophecy against Tyre, he actually wrote a revision (Ezek. 29:17-20):

Now in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, ‘Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it.’ Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold, I shall give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth, and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army. I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed, because they acted for Me,’ declares the Lord GOD.​

In this text, Ezekial makes clear Nebuchadnezzar failed ("he and his army had no wages from Tyre..."), so instead, God would give him another chance in Egypt. Sadly for Ezekial's prophecy, Nabucco wasn't as successful as hoped there, either.

 

[idea]

A lot of that idea comes from a time when most people were uneducated and perhaps barely literate. They needed leaders who, hopefully, were well intentioned and intelligent,

Today, I think almost everyone in the western first world countries will say they think for themselves.

Think for themselves, including defining their own religious beliefs. No need to rely on another's interpretation/opinion/bias.

What's the difference between groupthink and individual autonomy? What is the difference between plagiarism and research? Responsible citizens use more than one reference and include their own experiences in decisions.

The old authoritarian "I'm the only true church", I'm the real authority, I'm the prophet type religions are quickly becoming revealed for what they all really are - philosophical rationalizations of power-hungry (mostly) men.

 

[Brian2]

Yes, assuming that they can somehow see the future and are merely claiming that the ability comes from God makes fewer assumptions than that God exists. In the latter case that God is giving them the prophecy, they can still see the future and they still claim that the ability comes from God, but there's the additional assumption that God exists.

So, via Occam's Razor, we go with the explanation that makes fewer assumptions, which doesn't include the existence of God.

I always find it pretty amazing that evidence for God's existence is dismissed because of Occam's Razor, and turned into an assumption.
The naturalistic methodology of science is a common tool of skeptics even when it comes to analysing spiritual books like the Bible. God and the supernatural and prophecy and miracles are usually presumed not to be true.
This is really the main reason that the writing of Biblical books can be put hundreds of years after what the Bible insinuates. Because the prophecies in the books are not true and so the book must have been written after the prophecies.
Or when it comes to prophecies about Jesus that happened, it shows that the gospel authors must have made up the story of Jesus to fit prophecy.
And when Biblical prophecy still comes true in this age, the prophecies are too vague and could mean anything.

ETA: The reason for going with the case that makes fewer assumptions is because every additional assumption we make lowers the likelihood of our conclusion, which can be demonstrated statistically by multiplying the conclusion by the likelihood of our assumption (default being 50%)

So the likelihood that the voice that says He is YHWH and tells you the future, which comes true, in a culture where this sort of thing has happened in the past many times and in which YHWH saved your people from slavery in Egypt and is now your God and King, is 50% less likely to be YHWH than to be one of the countless other possible explanations you say exist.
What is the probability that this "prophet" is just able to see the future accurately do you think? 50% by default I guess. Surely half of us humans can do that.

 

[Brian2]

What? No, you never read it. The Tyre prophecy is perhaps the worst failed prophecy in the entire Bible...I use that one as an honesty test for Christians. How do you think that that one was fulfilled?

We have just been over this and you cannot see that it was fulfilled. It is not the prophecy's fault if it is true and people deny it. You even deny the history books and say that only the Island part of Tyre was called Tyre, and you call scholars that point out the truth in the prophecy, "liars".
Interestingly when I see this sort of blindness in skeptics it somehow shows me that I'm on the right path and Satan is real.

Ezekiel 26:1-14: A Proof Text For Inerrancy of Old Testament - Associates for Biblical Research
Tyre in Prophecy - Apologetics Press
Was the Tyre prophecy fulfilled? (Ezekiel 26) | BeliefMap.org

 

[Brian2]

I’m not even going to bother showing that the “Tyre prophecy” isn’t an accurate prediction of events – instead, I’ll let Ezekial do it for himself. Around sixteen years after his initial prophecy against Tyre, he actually wrote a revision (Ezek. 29:17-20):

Now in the twenty-seventh year, in the first month, on the first of the month, the word of the LORD came to me saying, ‘Son of man, Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon made his army labor hard against Tyre; every head was made bald, and every shoulder was rubbed bare. But he and his army had no wages from Tyre for the labor that he had performed against it.’ Therefore, thus says the Lord GOD, ‘Behold, I shall give the land of Egypt to Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon. And he will carry off her wealth, and capture her spoil and seize her plunder; and it will be wages for his army. I have given him the land of Egypt for his labor which he performed, because they acted for Me,’ declares the Lord GOD.​

In this text, Ezekial makes clear Nebuchadnezzar failed ("he and his army had no wages from Tyre..."), so instead, God would give him another chance in Egypt. Sadly for Ezekial's prophecy, Nabucco wasn't as successful as hoped there, either.

It is plain that you do not understand the initial prophecy (Ezek 26:1-14) or you would not think that Ezek 29:17-20 shows that the Ezek 26 prophecy was a mistake.
It's all explained in links in post 51, but if you either cannot or refuse to see the truth, then they probably won't help and you won't read them anyway.
Just keep believing what you are taught at skeptics.com or wherever you get your information. They also are in the same boat when it comes to being able to see, they either cannot see or refuse to see or, even worse, they see but still tell lies about the prophecy.

 

[rational experiences]

Families owner ship. Life on gods rock stone earth ark. Ark our ship planet earth. We live upon the ark never left it.

We took shelter in under ground ark. Bored built tunnels ark. Where water went before us flooding. As gods first earth laws sun attack.

We came out only when mountain flooding stopped and mountains mass stopped falling. By angels cloud fall burning.

By old science caused Phi fallout crop circles to new earth mass body sacrificed to nothing the first answer is the ends answer...Sin hole reactivation.

Life family is now DNA separated into a larger separated community.

Nothing in science was never a zero agreement. It was copying. If you agreed position zero...it meant you'd change nothing.

Same answer. To be use and infer I'm conscious.

Homosexual human to child molester creator designer science adult man's causes new causes were proven.

As DNA father mother to all babies was old testimony causes. Separated family groups. First.

So gods causes via creation separated families.

Isn't organised group gatherings or cult indoctrinated enforced behaviour. Belongs by conformities even human evil intent.

It's why legal was on a shut bible against human occult science history.

To not be as given by human punishment as slavery. Men gave illegal governing rights enforced not by vote. By punishment only chosen then extra punishment when gods heavens attacked biology.

Chose two human life attacks by science first.

Jesus terms. Referenced not by a book but by realisation living as the conscious human. Need for human rights first legal.

As a book used instruction.... Not laws not even Gods as Natural law.

Why most of you are wrong today.

 

[rational experiences]

Even Mohammed said they heeded his father's warnings about heavens cloud angel fall seeking shelter in caves. Men knew science temple caused it.

 

[Subduction Zone]

We have just been over this and you cannot see that it was fulfilled. It is not the prophecy's fault if it is true and people deny it. You even deny the history books and say that only the Island part of Tyre was called Tyre, and you call scholars that point out the truth in the prophecy, "liars".
Interestingly when I see this sort of blindness in skeptics it somehow shows me that I'm on the right path and Satan is real.

Ezekiel 26:1-14: A Proof Text For Inerrancy of Old Testament - Associates for Biblical Research
Tyre in Prophecy - Apologetics Press
Was the Tyre prophecy fulfilled? (Ezekiel 26) | BeliefMap.org

When you have to rely on Liars for Jesus (apologists) you have already lost the debate. Tyre is still there today. The same place that it has always been. Zeke even admitted that he was wrong. Didn't you read the prophecy? And apologists are not scholars. They do not publish in primary sources. They do lie. Your fist source for example used the "Old Tyre" lie. The mainland city was a "settlement" it was not Tyre. The etymology of the world Tyre refers to the island. It does not refer to the mainland port. Historically it was known that Tyer was the island. The name "Old Tyre" is only found in Christian works trying to defend the failed myth. You won't find it in historical sources. You might want to read this:


file:///C:/Users/DOUGH/Downloads/29192-prediction-and-foreknowledge-in-ezekiel-s-prophecy-against-tyre.pdf

And then there is this article. I have seen it elsewhere, but it gives the name of the city on land it was Ushu, not "Old Tyre". He also pointed out quite a few reasons that Tyre was the island. Besides the historical references to it as Tyre there is the fact that the island was much more easily defended than what the Bible called "It's settlements". The land around it was open to attack from North, East, and South. It was an easy approach. The island city had two natural ports and the ability to defend them. That is why the Gates of Trye were on the island. Those were the Gates that Nebuchadnezzar never broke down. And if you read the whole prophecy, the whole thing, after the 13 year long siege Ezekiel admits that Nebuchadnezzar failed.

Biblical Errancy: Ezekiel's Prophecy of Tyre: a failed prophecy

 

[TransmutingSoul]

Most humans are followers, herd animals, rely on tribalism, group-think. "God" is just the queen bee, the alpha male, the 8 point buck, each herd follows their own God. It's the easiest way to avoid being responsible and self-reliant, follow the crowd.

What a load of twaddle.

Regards Tony

 

[Mark Charles Compton]

I do not expect (or hope) that this thread will reach anything like the length of the late thread titled just "Evidence." However, I think it's time that we began having some discussion, since @TransmutingSoul seems determined not to discuss how evidence might be used or evaluated in his thread. (Why do I think it won't be so long? Because I do not anticipate the evidence insisters in the other thread to participate very much. From what I've seen, they don't have much to contribute.)

A bullet casing, found lying in the street, may well be "evidence" of something, and that something may well be a crime. Then again, it could be almost anything else, too: a relic dropped by accident, a deliberately placed clue in a private game about which we know nothing because we're not playing. So that bullet casing, while it might be "evidence," is entirely useless "as evidence" unless somebody starts asking -- and answering -- questions about it.

I think, for purposes of this thread, however, we should stick to those pieces of "evidence" provided in the other thread. For reference, these are:



I'll begin with my first, most obvious thoughts:

1. How can a person, who claims to be a "Messenger from God," be identified as such by any means other than his own claim?
2. Would it not be necessary to show that "The Revelation" they give could not have been given unless it were provided by God? And can it be shown, before whatever transformation and change is intended actually occurs, that that transformation will be for the betterment of humanity?
3. Would it be necessary to show that "The Word - The Message" could not have been written or articulated by a mere human, without divine assistance? How would that be accomplished? And, like the writings of Karl Marx, sitting in the British Museum, can they be demonstrated to be certain to give the desired results? It does not appear, after all, that Marx's words did.

I'm pretty sure this would be relevant here:

 

[Brian2]

When you have to rely on Liars for Jesus (apologists) you have already lost the debate. Tyre is still there today. The same place that it has always been. Zeke even admitted that he was wrong. Didn't you read the prophecy? And apologists are not scholars. They do not publish in primary sources. They do lie. Your fist source for example used the "Old Tyre" lie. The mainland city was a "settlement" it was not Tyre. The etymology of the world Tyre refers to the island. It does not refer to the mainland port. Historically it was known that Tyer was the island. The name "Old Tyre" is only found in Christian works trying to defend the failed myth. You won't find it in historical sources. You might want to read this:


file:///C:/Users/DOUGH/Downloads/29192-prediction-and-foreknowledge-in-ezekiel-s-prophecy-against-tyre.pdf

And then there is this article. I have seen it elsewhere, but it gives the name of the city on land it was Ushu, not "Old Tyre". He also pointed out quite a few reasons that Tyre was the island. Besides the historical references to it as Tyre there is the fact that the island was much more easily defended than what the Bible called "It's settlements". The land around it was open to attack from North, East, and South. It was an easy approach. The island city had two natural ports and the ability to defend them. That is why the Gates of Trye were on the island. Those were the Gates that Nebuchadnezzar never broke down. And if you read the whole prophecy, the whole thing, after the 13 year long siege Ezekiel admits that Nebuchadnezzar failed.

Biblical Errancy: Ezekiel's Prophecy of Tyre: a failed prophecy

So I opened your "Biblical Errancy" article and see a map, and to the right side of the map there is a section that is titled "Ruins of Tyre". This section is on what used to be the mainland before Alexander's siege.
Your article is a skeptic's article which is out to show that the only place called Tyre in Nebuchadnezzars time is the Island. It does a poor job of that with such a map.
This next article tells us about the history of Tyre and about Ushu and you should be able to see that the mainland was old Tyre and that it became suburbs of Tyre between Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander the Great.
2 paragraphs of the article tell us this.
Tyre
2Paragraphs of this next article gives the same information.
A History of the Ancient & Classical City of Tyre and Its Commerce
Read the paragraph entitles "Location".
Siege of Tyre (332 BC) - Wikipedia
Read the start of the 2nd paragraph.
Tyre | town and historical site, Lebanon
From this next article we get the following image.
How Alexander Turned The Island of Tyre Into a Peninsula | Amusing Planet

And even after all this I don't expect you to change your mind about the coastal city not being part of Tyre.

 

[Subduction Zone]

So I opened your "Biblical Errancy" article and see a map, and to the right side of the map there is a section that is titled "Ruins of Tyre". This section is on what used to be the mainland before Alexander's siege.
Your article is a skeptic's article which is out to show that the only place called Tyre in Nebuchadnezzars time is the Island. It does a poor job of that with such a map.
This next article tells us about the history of Tyre and about Ushu and you should be able to see that the mainland was old Tyre and that it became suburbs of Tyre between Nebuchadnezzar and Alexander the Great.
2 paragraphs of the article tell us this.
Tyre
2Paragraphs of this next article gives the same information.
A History of the Ancient & Classical City of Tyre and Its Commerce
Read the paragraph entitles "Location".
Siege of Tyre (332 BC) - Wikipedia
Read the start of the 2nd paragraph.
Tyre | town and historical site, Lebanon
From this next article we get the following image.
How Alexander Turned The Island of Tyre Into a Peninsula | Amusing Planet

And even after all this I don't expect you to change your mind about the coastal city not being part of Tyre.

The prophecy was about Nebuchadnezzar. It was not about Alexander the Great. Tyre was defeated before Nebby and after him. Those are just "So what" events. The prophecy was about how God was going to get back at the King of Tyre. Well that did not happen. Are you now saying that your God is so incompetent that the forgot that people died?

Face it, it is a terribly failed prophecy. And even Alexander did not complete it. Yes, he defeated Tyre, but it recovered. It was never to be found again and yet you can spot it quite easily on Google Maps. This is where Christians lose credibility.

Or are you referring to the "City of Tyre destroyed by the Babylonians"? Yes, that one source referred to the mainland city incorrectly. Christians did impact what people called the area. But actual historians know its name. It was not "Tyre" That was Ushu:

Ushu - Wikipedia

From that article:

"

• “[Tyre’s] numbers swelled greatly in time of war, when residents of nearby cities on the mainland (such as Ushu) found refuge on the island.” (Katzenstein, H.J., The History of Tyre, 1973, p10) "

Tyre regularly abandoned the indefensible cities on the land. The island was Tyre. It was what everyone was after. The land surrounding it was not of much value.

 

[PearlSeeker]

I can see that you have been poisoned against fulfilled Biblical prophecies.
How about miracles and rising from the dead? They could help identify someone from God,,,,,,,,,,,,,, especially if the miracles and rising from the dead were prophesied about.

Read this and guess who is being described (answer in the spoiler below):

Even before he was born, it was known that he would be someone special. A supernatural being informed his mother that the child she was to conceive would not be a mere mortal but would be divine. He was born miraculously, and he became an unusually precocious young man. As an adult he left home and went on an itinerant preaching ministry, urging his listeners to live, not for the material things of this world, but for what is spiritual. He gathered a number of disciples around him, who became convinced that his teachings were divinely inspired, in no small part because he himself was divine. He proved it to them by doing many miracles, healing the sick, casting out demons, and raising the dead. But at the end of his life, he roused opposition, and his enemies delivered him over to the Roman authorities for judgment. Still, after he left this world, he returned to meet his followers in order to convince them that he was not really dead but lived on in the heavenly realm. Later some of his followers wrote books about him.

Who is this?
​

Spoiler: Answer

Apollonius of Tyana

Above text by Barth D. Ehrman