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Evidence of Koran's validity?

Snowber

Active Member
Hey everyone,

I am purposely putting this article "up for grabs" so to speak. I have not necessarily counted the actual words in the Koran and verified all this myself, but if you scroll down you will see other points made besides the number of times similar words are mentioned being equal to each other.

I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this, GOD willing. I personally found it very interesting when I first read it, but once you present it to people who aren't Muslim you may have interesting things to hear about it -_^

Let it begin!

The Endless Phenomenon of the Koran
 
That's been around awhile, and I
Still think it's fine to justify
One's faith with numbers in a line.
But what speaks more to me in fine
Is that the Qur'an does affirm
The ethics before which we squirm,
The Decalogue from one to ten
Set out once in guidance for men
(And women too I hope to say
As well as children out at play.)
 
You mean John 3:14 up to
Chapter 15, verse nine in view?
I'm sure a bit of search could
Find the same thing, if any would,
In the Qur'an. It's just as right
As any other science site.
 

Snowber

Active Member
That's been around awhile, and I
Still think it's fine to justify
One's faith with numbers in a line.
But what speaks more to me in fine
Is that the Qur'an does affirm
The ethics before which we squirm,
The Decalogue from one to ten
Set out once in guidance for men
(And women too I hope to say
As well as children out at play.)

You mean John 3:14 up to
Chapter 15, verse nine in view?
I'm sure a bit of search could
Find the same thing, if any would,
In the Qur'an. It's just as right
As any other science site.

Definitely an interesting way of posting.
 
I thank you for the interest shown,
But now let's get back to the bone.
The point is the Qur'an is right
(Though I do not put up a fight)
Because it can be reconciled
With Decalogue. Perhaps you've smiled
I'm so naive to think that text
Criterion for the perplexed.
But by Furqan the Qur'an means
In at least one place on the scenes
The Decalogue (just take a look
At Baqara ayat in nook
Number 53). Moses took
The Furqan, so it cannot be
The Qur'an, and he came to see
The Scripture as well, which for him
Was Torah. So it is not dim,
The only other thing God gave
To Moses was, and here I'm brave,
The tables of the Decalogue
To keep humankind out of fog.
So if that is criterion
Of judgement, then when applied on
The Qur'an, it shows Qur'an's drawn
Upon the truth and right and dawn.
Of course, if one does not accept
The Decalogue as an adept
Argument fails, cannot be kept.

Now some consider Qur'an right
Because it keeps science in sight.
And others just follow because
It is in their ancestral clause.
There are some who find numbers fit
So finely, nineteen in a bit,
That this proves Qur'an is from God.
I take position on the sod
That Qur'an itself offers best
Criterion we might invest
For judging whether it is true:
So I keep Decalogue in view.
 
Of very nice! I like that link.
I'd only add something I think
In regard of the Sabbath day,
The Holy Qur'an comes to say:

And well ye knew those amongst you who transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath: We said to them: "Be ye apes, despised and rejected." Al-Qur'an, Al-Baqara (2:65)
O ye People of the Book! believe in what We have (now) revealed, confirming what was (already) with you, before We change the face and fame of some (of you) beyond all recognition, and turn them hindwards, or curse them as We cursed the Sabbath-breakers, for the decision of Allah Must be carried out. Al-Qur'an, An-Nisa (4:47)
And for their covenant we raised over them (the towering height) of Mount (Sinai); and (on another occasion) we said: "Enter the gate with humility"; and (once again) we commanded them: "Transgress not in the matter of the sabbath." And we took from them a solemn covenant. Al-Qur'an, An-Nisa (4:154)
Ask them concerning the town standing close by the sea. Behold! they transgressed in the matter of the Sabbath. For on the day of their Sabbath their fish did come to them, openly holding up their heads, but on the day they had no Sabbath, they came not: thus did We make a trial of them, for they were given to transgression. Al-Qur'an, Al-Araf (7:163)
 

Shishya

Member
If you want to see a pattern. You will try to see it anywhere you want to. So you wil search for one. And one way or another, you will find one somewhere.

A good example is the youtube user "HighFlyingDutchman"

in this video he claims that the quran talks about the speed of light.
[youtube]06NRxaRi1pw[/youtube]
YouTube - Quran and The Speed of Light?

what he actually does is whip equations out of nowhere to derive the result he wants.

See the thing is; Its not the entire quran, every single verse and every single word and all the references being "scientifically accurate".

I knew an ex-muslim atheist who speaks fluent arabic and he told me that much of these "scientific miracles" are entirely play with words changing the actual meaning of words to suit according to what the author is trying to prove.

and even if these are scientific facts for real. there are still several scientifically incorrect statements made in the verses of the quran.

and even if all the statements made in the quran are completely scientifically accurate. we can say that perhaps there are extra terrestrials observing us who are the authors of the quran.

because technically speaking - these supposed "scientific miracles" are deemed miraculous because they are advanced science made in a time where human knowledge of science was not at that level. so it means a non-human source of intelligence was its author. and this non-human source can be anything. not necessarily God.
 

Snowber

Active Member
If you want to see a pattern. You will try to see it anywhere you want to. So you wil search for one. And one way or another, you will find one somewhere.

A good example is the youtube user "HighFlyingDutchman"

in this video he claims that the quran talks about the speed of light.
[youtube]06NRxaRi1pw[/youtube]
YouTube - Quran and The Speed of Light?

what he actually does is whip equations out of nowhere to derive the result he wants.

See the thing is; Its not the entire quran, every single verse and every single word and all the references being "scientifically accurate".

I knew an ex-muslim atheist who speaks fluent arabic and he told me that much of these "scientific miracles" are entirely play with words changing the actual meaning of words to suit according to what the author is trying to prove.

and even if these are scientific facts for real. there are still several scientifically incorrect statements made in the verses of the quran.

and even if all the statements made in the quran are completely scientifically accurate. we can say that perhaps there are extra terrestrials observing us who are the authors of the quran.

because technically speaking - these supposed "scientific miracles" are deemed miraculous because they are advanced science made in a time where human knowledge of science was not at that level. so it means a non-human source of intelligence was its author. and this non-human source can be anything. not necessarily God.

Peace dear Shishya,

GOD has always allowed the devils to come up with their own "miracles" (or what would seem to be miraculous or scientifically accurate) so that in the end only those GOD wills we will see the truth in the Qu'ran.

Fact is, nothing can or will ever imitate the mathematical miracle of the Qu'ran. It is PROOF that this is a divine scripture. You only have to do the research and you will see that you can look for something similar in ANY book and you will NEVER find it as miraculous. I've seen people with arguments of Moby Dick listing assassinations and whatnot, but that's completely different.

The Qu'ran is a Scripture that tells us there is something special about the number 19:

[74:30] Over it is nineteen.
[74:31] We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned their number (19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?" GOD thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills. None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. This is a reminder for the people.

And in fact this miracle has confounded many Muslims and Non-Muslims alike. This miracle and the evidence that came with it is bringing about the fall of traditional Islam and the radical ideas of Hadith and Sunnah that come with it. This is why Muslim nations have dedicated vast amounts of wealth in concealing it, including buying and burning copies of the translation of the Qu'ran by Rashad Khalifa to hide this (because it will bring an end to their deceiving BUSINESS)


Now about this possibly coming from aliens:

[44:38] We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them, just to play.
[44:39] We created them for a specific purpose, but most of them do not know.

and:

[21:16] We did not create the heavens and the earth, and everything between them just for amusement.
[21:17] If we needed amusement, we could have initiated it without any of this, if that is what we wanted to do.
[21:18] Instead, it is our plan to support the truth against falsehood, in order to defeat it. Woe to you for the utterances you utter.

Now if you wish to believe that perhaps this is miraculous but it came from other than GOD, than you can take that risk. In fact, if you studied it, you would realize it wasn't just for play and entertainment.

I think each person gets to see divinity in their own lives, be it from realizing that karma comes back to bite you, or that things just seem to happen in amazing ways.

In the end, those who truly want to find out if there is a GOD out there will search for Him, and if GOD wills that they be accepted, they will be guided. It is only for your own benefit, but in the end if your opinion is to disbelieve no matter what you see, then GOD will guide you in that path until the truth comes when it is too late.

Peace
 

Snowber

Active Member
Dont get it. How does 19 do anything?

Cheers

In 74:30-31, we see that the number 19 has several functions:

(1) to disturb the disbelievers, (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4) to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say, "What did GOD mean by this allegory?"

Note that the word "ONE" in Arabic has a mathematical value of the "19". 1 and 9 look the same in all Scriptural languages. To derive 19, what you do is use the system of counting alphabets as numbers (back in the day when they didnt use numbers, they did their trades with the alphabet, so for example A-J would be 1-10 and then it would go 10,20,30,40 and so on.

Here is an article titled "Why 19"

When told about the mathematical miracle of the Quran and how it is related to number 19 , many people ask : Why 19?!

If it was 17 or 21, they would have asked the same question, WHY 21 ? or Why 17 ?. But of course there is more than one reason for that choice.

Number 19 as we know by now is mentioned in the Quran in Sura 74 verse 30. God even told us the significance of this number in 74:31.

The student of the scriptures will find enough evidence that the mathematical code, based on number 19, was used for the previous scripture as well. See: Short history and review of the Mathematical Miracle of the Quran.

Since distortion changed the whole face of the old scripture we were left only with the Quran as the only preserved word of God. It is God's choice for this to happen. Even the universe at large bears this divine mark. The number 19 can be looked upon as the Almighty Creator's signature on everything He created.

The number 19 possesses unique mathematical properties, for example:

1-It is a prime number , only divides by itself and one.

2-It encompasses the first numeral (1) and the last numeral (9), as if to proclaim God's attribute in 57:3 as the "Alpha and the Omega".

3-Its {numerals} look the same in all languages in the world.The numerals (1) and (9) look very much the same in , for example Arabic and English.

4-It possesses many peculiar mathematical properties. For example, 19 is the sum of the first powers of 9 and 10, and the difference between the second powers of 9 and 10.

5-Number 19 is the numerical value of the word "ONE" in all the scriptural languages, Aramaic, Hebrew, and Arabic. The number 19, therefore proclaims the First commandment in all the scriptures: that there is only ONE GOD.

The word "ONE" "Wahid" in reference to God, in the Quran, is used 19 times. Is it a co-incidence?

The number 19 itself has no power and has no holiness, and can lead you no where. It is the Miracle that is based on this number that has the significance. This significance is explained clearly by God Almighty Himself in 74:30-31.

74:30-31 states the following

"Over it is nineteen." " We appointed angels to be guardians of Hell, and we assigned THEIR NUMBER (i.e.19) (1) to disturb the disbelievers. (2) to convince the Christians and Jews (that this is a divine scripture), (3) to strengthen the faith of the faithful, (4)to remove all traces of doubt from the hearts of Christians, Jews, as well as the believers, and (5) to expose those who harbor doubt in their hearts, and the disbelievers; they will say," What did God mean by this allegory ?" God thus sends astray whomever He wills, and guides whomever He wills, None knows the soldiers of your Lord except He. THIS IS A REMINDER FOR THE PEOPLE." 74:30-31

We now have evidence that the number 19 was also coded in previous Scriptures as well, and oddly enough, the Qu'ran mentions that!

Rabbi Judah the Pious

[46:10] Say, "What if it is from GOD and you disbelieved in it? A witness from the Children of Israel has borne witness to a similar phenomenon, and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant. Surely, GOD does not guide the wicked people."

In a book called "Studies in Jewish Mysticism" we see an interesting quote shown below but I will also give a quick summary for those who would rather not read all of it

If you look at the last two paragraphs, you see that Jews in France, at the time, had added to their prayers. They figured out it was falsehood because the Holy name is mentioned "nineteen times" in that prayer and that would've made it more. Also you find "Elohim mentioned 19 times.." and that Israel is called "sons 19 times" and that "All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes."

"Furthermore, in this section there are 152 words (152 = 19 x 8) but if you add "'Ashrei temimei derekh" there are 158 words."



...the words and letters of the various prayers are not accidental, nor are they only vehicles for their literal meaning. Their order, especially their numbers, reflect a mystical harmony, a sacred divine rhythm. This mystical harmony can be discovered in historical events, directed by God; in nature, especially in the miraculous occurrences directly influenced by divine powers; and first and foremost, in the Bible. According to Rabbi Judah and the Ashkenazi Hasidic school in general, there can be nothing accidental in the Bible, not even the forms of letters, the punctuation, the vocalization, and especially-in the numerical structures-the number of certain letters, consonants or vowels in a certain verse; the number of words from the same root; the number and variety of divine names in a certain pericope, the absence of one or more letters from a chapter, and many other elements of the Scriptures besides their content.

Nine centuries after Rabbi Judah stated these elements of the code, the computer has demonstrated each of them. As detailed in this chapter and the next, the original scripture was mathematically composed in a way that encodes and guards every single one of its parameters. If the scripture were tampered with, the code would be broken.

Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah was critical of the French and British Jews when they altered the morning prayer by adding a few words (Ibid., p. 88). Rabbi Judah pointed out that such an addition destroys the numerical structure of the prayer and renders it utterly nullified. He maintained that it is the "numerical combination," rather than the "meanings" of the words that effects the needed contact between the worshiper and God. Even the specific, nineteen-based, numerical system of the scripture was reported by Rabbi Judah:

The people [Jews] in France made it a custom to add [in the morning prayer] the words: " 'Ashrei temimei derekh [blessed are those who walk the righteous way]," and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned [in that portion of the morning prayer] ...and similarly you find the word 'Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-'elleh shemot.... Similarly, you find that Israel is called "sons" nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes. Therefore, anyone who has the fear of God in him will not listen to the words of the Frenchmen who add the verse "'Ashrei temimei derekh," and blessed are the righteous who walk in the paths of God's Torah, for according to their additions the Holy Name is mentioned twenty times...and this is a great mistake.

Furthermore, in this section there are 152 words (152 = 19 x 8) but if you add "'Ashrei temimei derekh" there are 158 words. This is nonsense, for it is a great and hidden secret why there should be 152 words...but it cannot be explained in a short treatise. ...In order to understand this religious phenomenon, we have to take the basic contention of this treatise exactly as it is stated: every addition or omission of a word, or even of a single letter, from the sacred text of the prayers destroys the religious meaning of the prayer as a whole and is to be regarded as a grave sin, a sin which could result in eternal exile for those who commit it.... (STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM, pp. 88-89)

Just wanted to add that we should remember the number 19 itself is not holy. It is simply GOD's way of presenting His proofs to us. It's what the number represents, the ONE and ONLY, that has meaning.

Hope that helps, peace friends.
 

Bowman

Active Member
Hey everyone,

I am purposely putting this article "up for grabs" so to speak. I have not necessarily counted the actual words in the Koran and verified all this myself, but if you scroll down you will see other points made besides the number of times similar words are mentioned being equal to each other.

I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this, GOD willing. I personally found it very interesting when I first read it, but once you present it to people who aren't Muslim you may have interesting things to hear about it
Let it begin!


Hi Brother...

Why does 19.19 speak of Jesus Christ?
 

Snowber

Active Member
Hi Brother...

Why does 19.19 speak of Jesus Christ?

Hi Bowman,

Let's look at these verses around and including 19:

[19:16] Mention in the scripture Mary. She isolated herself from her family, into an eastern location.
[19:17] While a barrier separated her from them, we sent to her our Spirit. He went to her in the form of a human being.
[19:18] She said, "I seek refuge in the Most Gracious, that you may be righteous."
[19:19] He said, "I am the messenger of your Lord, to grant you a pure son."
[19:20] She said, "How can I have a son, when no man has touched me; I have never been unchaste."

So the messenger in 19:19 is speaking about the "Spirit".

Peace :)
 

Bowman

Active Member
Hi Bowman,

Let's look at these verses around and including 19:



So the messenger in 19:19 is speaking about the "Spirit".

Peace :)



Thanks for your reply, brother.

It’s pretty clear, that 19.19 is copied from the Holy Bible.

Observe…



And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin who had been betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace! The Lord is with you. You are blessed among women! And seeing this, she was disturbed at his word, and considered what kind of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, Do not fear, Mary, for you have found favor from God. And behold! You will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will call His name Jesus. This One will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages, and of His kingdom there will be no end. But Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I do not know a man? And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God. (Luke 1.26 – 35)





Compare to 19.19…



قال إنما أنا رسول ربك لأهب لك غلما زكيا

Qala innama ana rasoolu rabbiki li-ahaba laki ghulaman zakiyyan

19.19 He said: "Only I myself, as your Lord’s messenger, I give for you new-born Son pure from sin





As we can see, the ‘messenger’ refers to Gabriel who brings the news to Mary that the Holy Spirit will come upon her and that she will bear the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

This poses quite a problem for orthodox Muslims who deny that Jesus is the Son of God.

Further, this shows that God has a Spirit, i.e. part of the Triune nature of the Biblical God…which is another thing Muslims deny.

For 19.19 to show us this must be the true power of the ‘19’ phenomenon!
 

Snowber

Active Member
Thanks for your reply, brother.

It’s pretty clear, that 19.19 is copied from the Holy Bible.

Observe…



And in the sixth month, the angel Gabriel was sent by God to a city of Galilee named Nazareth, to a virgin who had been betrothed to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary. And entering, the angel said to her, Hail, one having received grace! The Lord is with you. You are blessed among women! And seeing this, she was disturbed at his word, and considered what kind of greeting this might be. And the angel said to her, Do not fear, Mary, for you have found favor from God. And behold! You will conceive in your womb and bear a Son, and you will call His name Jesus. This One will be great and will be called Son of the Most High. And the Lord God will give Him the throne of His father David. And He will reign over the house of Jacob to the ages, and of His kingdom there will be no end. But Mary said to the angel, How will this be since I do not know a man? And answering, the angel said to her, The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for this reason that Holy One being born of you will be called Son of God. (Luke 1.26 – 35)





Compare to 19.19…



قال إنما أنا رسول ربك لأهب لك غلما زكيا

Qala innama ana rasoolu rabbiki li-ahaba laki ghulaman zakiyyan

19.19 He said: "Only I myself, as your Lord’s messenger, I give for you new-born Son pure from sin





As we can see, the ‘messenger’ refers to Gabriel who brings the news to Mary that the Holy Spirit will come upon her and that she will bear the Son of God, Jesus Christ.

This poses quite a problem for orthodox Muslims who deny that Jesus is the Son of God.

Further, this shows that God has a Spirit, i.e. part of the Triune nature of the Biblical God…which is another thing Muslims deny.

For 19.19 to show us this must be the true power of the ‘19’ phenomenon!

Interesting take, but to believe this you have to trust that the Bible is 100% valid today, which evidence shows contrary.

Also, you say it is "copied" from the Bible, but you have to realize that the Torah, Gospel, and Qu'ran all came from the ONE and ONLY. It would only make sense that GOD, having delivered all the Scriptures, when telling a story would keep it consistent.

I think what should be in question here is what is meant by "Son of GOD", for Jesus was not the only one called son.

Here's a thread already going on about this:

Was Jesus GOD's son?

Peace, brother. Hope that helps.
 

Bowman

Active Member
Interesting take, but to believe this you have to trust that the Bible is 100% valid today, which evidence shows contrary.

The authors of the Koran understood the Holy Bible to be 100% valid.




Also, you say it is "copied" from the Bible, but you have to realize that the Torah, Gospel, and Qu'ran all came from the ONE and ONLY. It would only make sense that GOD, having delivered all the Scriptures, when telling a story would keep it consistent.

Please show me where the Koran ever claims to be divinely inspired.

Good luck...




I think what should be in question here is what is meant by "Son of GOD", for Jesus was not the only one called son.

Here's a thread already going on about this:


Peace, brother. Hope that helps.

Jesus is the only begotten Son of God.

Even the authors of the Koran understood this...
 

Benoni

Well-Known Member
The Bible is divine, the Qu'ran is not; just like the Book of Mormon. This is easy to prove in the spiritual ways the Bible is written. I ask my Muslin brother's to expalin to me what is divine or spiritual about the Qu'ran. I will give my answer shortly.
 

Bowman

Active Member
The Bible is divine, the Qu'ran is not; just like the Book of Mormon. This is easy to prove in the spiritual ways the Bible is written. I ask my Muslin brother's to expalin to me what is divine or spiritual about the Qu'ran. I will give my answer shortly.

Be sure to ask them where their Koran ever states that it was divinely inspired...thanks!
 
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