Evidence of Koran's validity?

[Bowman]

Therefore, to say that this verse clearly speaks about Jesus's divinity is a lie, and a lie is no substitute for the Truth. GOD will always support the Truth.

Peace, hope that helps.

Defining the term…


الحق= “alhaqqi”

“alhaqqi” definition:

Singular masculine noun. The Truth; one of the names of “allah”; one of the names of God; due share; justice; right claim; what ought to be; duty; incumbent.

It comes from the root “haqqa” (ha-qaf-qaf), which means it was, or became, suitable to the requirements of wisdom, justice, right or rightness, truth, or reality, or fact; or to the exigencies of the case; it was, or became, just, proper, right, correct, or true; authentic, genuine, sound, valid, substantial, or real; established, or confirmed as truth or fact; and necessitated, obligatory, incumbent or due; it was, or became, a manifest and an indubitable fact or event; it happened, betided, or befell, surely, without doubt or uncertainty. To be right, just or fitting, worthy of, justly due to, proper, genuine, real, a fact, true, necessitated, suitable, necessary, incumbent upon, suited to the requirement of justice, become certain, authentic, deserve.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume two, pp. 605 – 610
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 131
A Dictionary and Glossary of the Koran, John Penrice, pp. 36 - 37




Per the classic definition, “alhaqqi” means ‘The Truth’, and is actually a name for “allah”, and a name for God.

Knowing this, observe how “alhaqqi” is applied to Jesus Christ in the Koran, as the following quintessential Koranic ayah informs us that ‘The Truth’, is only Jesus Christ…

يأهل الكتب لا تغلوا في دينكم ولا تقولوا على الله​

إلا الحق إنما المسيح عيسى ابن مريم رسول الله​

وكلمته ألقيها إلى مريم وروح منه فءامنوا بالله​

ورسله ولا تقولوا ثلثة انتهوا خيرا لكم إنما الله​

إله وحد سبحنه أن يكون له ولد له ما في​

السموت وما في الأرض وكفى بالله وكيلا​

Ya ahla alkitabi la taghloo fee deenikum wala taqooloo AAala Allahi illa alhaqqa innama almaseehu AAeesa ibnu maryama rasoolu Allahi wakalimatuhu alqaha ila maryama waroohun minhu faaminoo biAllahi warusulihi wala taqooloo thalathatun intahoo khayran lakum innama Allahu ilahun wahidun subhanahu an yakoona lahu waladun lahu ma fee alssamawati wama fee al-ardi wakafa biAllahi wakeelan

4.171 You The Book's family, do not go beyond the limits in your faith, and they do not say on “allah” except The Truth (is) only The Messiah Jesus, Mary's son, “allah’s” messenger, and his Word, cast forth to her, Mary, and Spirit from him; so believe by “allah”, and his messengers, and they do not say "Three." Refrain (it is) certainly agreeable to you, only “allah” one god glory be to him, that He has certainly been his Son,truly His what is in the heavens and in the earth and He sufficed by “allah”, a witness.


Exception…

The first word that we encounter in this ayah, after the term “allah”, is “illa” which gives exception to what follows it, as told to us by the classic definition…


إلا = “illa”

“illa” definition:

Regarded as a simple word. If not; unless; except; some; otherwise; less; but; and; also. This word is used to signify the sense of exception. This exception is of two kinds: 1) Exception in which the thing excepted belongs to the same class or species to which the things from which an exception is sought to be made, belongs. 2) Exception in which the excepted thing belongs to a different class or species. It commonly governs the accusative. It also means not even.

References:
An Arabic-English Lexicon, E.W. Lane, volume one, pp. 76 - 78
The Dictionary of the Holy Qur’an, 1st edition, Abdul Mannan Omar p. 27



The exception, which applies to “alhaqqa”, (‘The Truth’) is then juxtaposed to the following word “innama”…


"Innama" we have already covered...and you agree it means 'only'.


The classic definition quite clearly states that “innama” affirms a thing in relation to that which is mentioned after it.

Thus, “alhaqqi” (i.e. The Truth), is the “thing” that is being related to Jesus – which is mentioned after it.

The exception is Jesus Christ, in a class all by Himself.

Hence, “The Truth is only Jesus Christ”.

 

[Bowman]

Is it not true that your animosity and jealousy for another scripture, even though it is also from GOD, has caused you to deviate?

To say that a certain part of the Qu'ran may be a copy from the Bible is like saying "GOD is copying GOD". We already know that GOD sent down the Torah and the Gospel before the Qu'ran. GOD tells us that and it is supported by proof which you have failed to examine, dear Bowman.

Peace.

Give me one Koranic verse which states that the Koran was divinely inspired by the God of the Holy Bible.

Just one verse, brother...

 

[TurkeyOnRye]

The Endless Phenomenon of the Koran

I'm sure many Muslims would love to tip their hat to their imaginary deity for displaying this phenomena in their owner's manual, but anyone who doesn't stop at first interpretation can plainly see that the only phenomena at work is the obsessive human mind.

 

[Snowber]

I will get to as much as I can today, though I am starting to question the point X_X
You asked who "he" referred to in Sura 19.
1) "He" refers to the "messenger from your Lord" mentioned. If you see 19:17 this messenger is the "Spirit". Many refer to the Spirit as the Angel Gabriel.

2) I'm not sure if you're questioning the meaning of "Inama" but if you speak arabic you should know this.

3) If you read the rest of the verse it is clear. How much twisting of a word does it take to come up with your interpretation?

4) Again read the few verses and you will know

5) Ahaba being "i give" does not change the meaning of the verse. "To give you a pure son" Makes sense to me.

6) As for pure, EVEN if it meant "most pure" there is no evidence that the Qu'ran is all about Jesus being GOD.

Here are all verses that refer to Jesus:

The Prophets of Israel

[2:87] We gave Moses the scripture, and subsequent to him we sent other messengers, and we gave JESUS, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Is it not a fact that every time a messenger went to you with anything you disliked, your ego caused you to be arrogant? Some of them you rejected, and some of them you killed.

No Distinction Among God's Messengers

[2:136] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs; and in what was given to Moses and JESUS, and all the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters.

[2:253] These messengers; we blessed some of them more than others. For example, GOD spoke to one, and we raised some of them to higher ranks. And we gave JESUS, son of Mary, profound miracles and supported him with the Holy Spirit. Had GOD willed, their followers would not have fought with each other, after the clear proofs had come to them. Instead, they disputed among themselves; some of them believed, and some disbelieved. Had GOD willed, they would not have fought. Everything is in accordance with GOD's will.

[3:45] The angels said, "O Mary, GOD gives you good news: a Word from Him whose name is `The Messiah, JESUS the son of Mary. He will be prominent in this life and in the Hereafter, and one of those closest to Me.'

[3:52] When JESUS sensed their disbelief, he said, "Who are my supporters towards GOD?" The disciples said, "We are GOD's supporters; we believe in GOD, and bear witness that we are submitters."

[3:55] Thus, GOD said, "O JESUS, I am terminating your life, raising you to Me, and ridding you of the disbelievers. I will exalt those who follow you above those who disbelieve, till the Day of Resurrection. Then to Me is the ultimate destiny of all of you, then I will judge among you regarding your disputes.


[3:59] The example of JESUS, as far as GOD is concerned, is the same as that of Adam; He created him from dust, then said to him, "Be," and he was.


[3:84] Say, "We believe in GOD, and in what was sent down to us, and in what was sent down to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Patriarchs, and in what was given to Moses, JESUS, and the prophets from their Lord. We make no distinction among any of them. To Him alone we are submitters."

[4:157] And for claiming that they killed the Messiah, JESUS, son of Mary, the messenger of GOD. In fact, they never killed him, they never crucified him - they were made to think that they did. All factions who are disputing in this matter are full of doubt concerning this issue. They possess no knowledge; they only conjecture. For certain, they never killed him.*

[4:163] We have inspired you, as we inspired Noah and the prophets after him. And we inspired Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, the Patriarchs, JESUS, Job, Jonah, Aaron, and Solomon. And we gave David the Psalms.


[4:171] O people of the scripture, do not transgress the limits of your religion, and do not say about GOD except the truth. The Messiah, JESUS, the son of Mary, was a messenger of GOD, and His word that He had sent to Mary, and a revelation from Him. Therefore, you shall believe in GOD and His messengers. You shall not say, "Trinity." You shall refrain from this for your own good. GOD is only one god. Be He glorified; He is much too glorious to have a son. To Him belongs everything in the heavens and everything on earth. GOD suffices as Lord and Master.


[5:46] Subsequent to them, we sent JESUS, the son of Mary, confirming the previous scripture, the Torah. We gave him the Gospel, containing guidance and light, and confirming the previous scriptures, the Torah, and augmenting its guidance and light, and to enlighten the righteous.

[5:78] Condemned are those who disbelieved among the Children of Israel, by the tongue of David and JESUS, the son of Mary. This is because they disobeyed and transgressed.

[5:110] GOD will say, "O JESUS, son of Mary, remember My blessings upon you and your mother. I supported you with the Holy Spirit, to enable you to speak to the people from the crib, as well as an adult. I taught you the scripture, wisdom, the Torah, and the Gospel. Recall that you created from clay the shape of a bird by My leave, then blew into it, and it became a live bird by My leave. You healed the blind and the leprous by My leave, and revived the dead by My leave. Recall that I protected you from the Children of Israel who wanted to hurt you, despite the profound miracles you had shown them. The disbelievers among them said, `This is obviously magic.'


[5:112] Recall that the disciples said, "O JESUS, son of Mary, can your Lord send down to us a feast from the sky?" He said, "You should reverence GOD, if you are believers."


[5:114] Said JESUS, the son of Mary, "Our god, our Lord, send down to us a feast from the sky. Let it bring plenty for each and every one of us, and a sign from You. Provide for us; You are the best Provider."



[5:116] GOD will say, "O JESUS, son of Mary,* did you say to the people, `Make me and my mother idols beside GOD?' " He will say, "Be You glorified. I could not utter what was not right. Had I said it, You already would have known it. You know my thoughts, and I do not know Your thoughts. You know all the secrets.


[6:85] Also, Zachariah, John, JESUS, and Elias; all were righteous.


[9:30] The Jews said, "Ezra is the son of GOD," while the Christians said, "JESUS is the son of GOD!" These are blasphemies uttered by their mouths. They thus match the blasphemies of those who have disbelieved in the past. GOD condemns them. They have surely deviated.


[19:34] That was JESUS, the son of Mary, and this is the truth of this matter, about which they continue to doubt.

[19:37] The various parties disputed among themselves (regarding the identity of JESUS). Therefore, woe to those who disbelieve from the sight of a terrible day.


[33:7] Recall that we took from the prophets their covenant, including you (O Muhammad), Noah, Abraham, Moses, and JESUS the son of Mary. We took from them a solemn pledge.*


[42:13] He decreed for you the same religion decreed for Noah, and what we inspired to you, and what we decreed for Abraham, Moses, and JESUS: "You shall uphold this one religion, and do not divide it." The idol worshipers will greatly resent what you invite them to do. GOD redeems to Himself whomever He wills; He guides to Himself only those who totally submit.

[43:63] When JESUS went with the proofs, he said, "I bring to you wisdom, and to clarify some of the matters in which you dispute. You shall reverence GOD and obey me.

Deterioration of Religion

[57:27] Subsequent to them, we sent our messengers. We sent JESUS the son of Mary, and we gave him the Injeel (Gospel), and we placed in the hearts of his followers kindness and mercy. But they invented hermitism which we never decreed for them. All we asked them to do was to uphold the commandments approved by GOD. But they did not uphold the message as they should have. Consequently, we gave those who believed among them their recompense, while many of them were wicked.


[61:6] Recall that JESUS, son of Mary, said, "O Children of Israel, I am GOD's messenger to you, confirming the Torah and bringing good news of a messenger to come after me whose name will be even more praised (Ahmad)." Then, when he showed them the clear proofs, they said, "This is profound magic."

[61:14] O you who believe, be GOD's supporters, like the disciples of JESUS, son of Mary. When he said to them, "Who are my supporters towards GOD," they said, "We are GOD's supporters." Thus, a group from the Children of Israel believed, and another group disbelieved. We helped those who believed against their enemy, until they won.

 

[Snowber]

(continued)

GOD makes it clear that Jesus was NOT divine. This nullifies all your misinterpretations of Jesus being referred to.

If you are adamant about 19:19 being a miracle because it is 19:19 and refers to Jesus, we can also say that it is 19:19 because it refers to something only GOD could do, give Mary, the virgin, a child.

You say that 19:19 proves Jesus is a god, but your evidence is very weak. The Qu'ran tells us otherwise in clear words. Clear words vs Idol Worshipping Interpretations?

GOD has given you a plethora of evidence, it is GOD's system that those with disease in their hearts will find any reason to disbelieve.

As for 9:30-31, should I believe someone who goes through great lengths through his idol worship of a human being to misinterpret a verse (and still he is obviously wrong), or people who study the Arabic language and translate the same verses?

I think it is clear, from answering posts here and in your other threads that you only fabricate translations according to your reverence for a human being. One only has to look at your wonderful translation of Sura 89 to see that.

Peace, maybe it's time we stop feeding the troll?




TurkeyOnRye

Peace TurkeyOnRye,

As soon as someone uses their "obsessive minds" to come up with something as miraculous as the Qu'ran miracles, I'll believe you.

Peace.

 

[Bowman]

You asked who "he" referred to in Sura 19.
1) "He" refers to the "messenger from your Lord" mentioned. If you see 19:17 this messenger is the "Spirit". Many refer to the Spirit as the Angel Gabriel.

No brother.

The Spirit is clearly not Gabriel.

The very fact that your god has a Spirit that is called a "he" should raise more than just a few eyebrows - as you would have to face the fact that your 'one' god is plural in nature.

Attempting to force this to mean the angel Gabriel is just a last ditch effort on the part of islam to avoid the Trinity.

 

[Snowber]

No brother.

The Spirit is clearly not Gabriel.

The very fact that your god has a Spirit that is called a "he" should raise more than just a few eyebrows - as you would have to face the fact that your 'one' god is plural in nature.

Attempting to force this to mean the angel Gabriel is just a last ditch effort on the part of islam to avoid the Trinity.

Bowman,

When you speak, brother, it reflects your lack of knowledge on the Qu'ran. This is something you are not ready to discuss. "he" is also used to refer to GOD, that does not mean that GOD is male. When the Qu'ran uses "our", that is because GOD involves other entities (specifically Angels) to carry out certain tasks.

Because GOD says "our Spirit" does not contradict the Oneness of GOD.

Again, I think it is important to address whether the Bible truly claims that Jesus was GOD, and not idolatrous men who invented the concept. Please let me know if you'd like to start a one to one discussion/debate in the appropriate section on this. I'm sorry, but I think as long as you believe, by blind faith, that Jesus was GOD, you will continue to misinterpret the Qu'ran.

Peace.

 

[Bowman]

Bowman,

When you speak, brother, it reflects your lack of knowledge on the Qu'ran. This is something you are not ready to discuss. "he" is also used to refer to GOD, that does not mean that GOD is male. When the Qu'ran uses "our", that is because GOD involves other entities (specifically Angels) to carry out certain tasks.

Because GOD says "our Spirit" does not contradict the Oneness of GOD.

How can your 'one' "allah" have a spirit and still be 'one' brother?

The Koran uses 'our' to demonstrate a plural entity.

Again, I think it is important to address whether the Bible truly claims that Jesus was GOD, and not idolatrous men who invented the concept. Please let me know if you'd like to start a one to one discussion/debate in the appropriate section on this. I'm sorry, but I think as long as you believe, by blind faith, that Jesus was GOD, you will continue to misinterpret the Qu'ran.

Peace.

Jesus claimed to be God Almighty in the first-person singular, brother, as thus...


ο νικων κληρονομησει ταυτα και εσομαι αυτω θεος και αυτος εσται μοι υιος

ho nikao kleronomeo houtos kai esomai autos theos kai autos esomai moi huios

The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me. (Rev 21.7)




Observe that “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God.

Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the ones overcoming, the sons to Him.


Even the authors of Koran proclaim that Jesus is God....surely you can trust your Koran even though you deny its source...

 

[Snowber]

How can your 'one' "allah" have a spirit and still be 'one' brother?

The Koran uses 'our' to demonstrate a plural entity.






Jesus claimed to be God Almighty in the first-person singular, brother, as thus...


ο νικων κληρονομησει ταυτα και εσομαι αυτω θεος και αυτος εσται μοι υιος

ho nikao kleronomeo houtos kai esomai autos theos kai autos esomai moi huios

The one overcoming will inherit all things, and I will be God to him, and he will be the son to Me. (Rev 21.7)




Observe that “Theos” is in the nominative case, indicating that Jesus is the subject of the verb “esomai” establishing Him as God.

Further, observe that Jesus establishes that His deity is directly interchangeable with the Father, making the ones overcoming, the sons to Him.


Even the authors of Koran proclaim that Jesus is God....surely you can trust your Koran even though you deny its source...

Good information, please bring it to the thread I have created under "General Debates -> One on one debates -> "Did Jesus claim to be GOD?"

Peace.

 

[mho123]

Hey everyone,

I am purposely putting this article "up for grabs" so to speak. I have not necessarily counted the actual words in the Koran and verified all this myself, but if you scroll down you will see other points made besides the number of times similar words are mentioned being equal to each other.

I'd like to know what everyone thinks about this, GOD willing. I personally found it very interesting when I first read it, but once you present it to people who aren't Muslim you may have interesting things to hear about it -_^

Let it begin!

The Endless Phenomenon of the Koran

If you are out there searching for excuses to justify your belief you will find them even in a pile of sh,,, and you will see gods face on the reflection of your ***
the only reason you are doing this is because you are a moslim and you want to prove your case ,, you are not a moslim becasue you counted the letters but you are counting the letters because you are a moslim ,
wake up and look around man ,, we are not in 17 th century ,,,
take the next best rap song and give it to a mathematician and he will find a lot equations proving it to be statistically relevant ,, what does that mean ,, that it is rithmic ,, that its a song ,, nothing more nothing less,
nothing to do with divine ,,
good morning

 

[Snowber]

If you are out there searching for excuses to justify your belief you will find them even in a pile of sh,,, and you will see gods face on the reflection of your ***
the only reason you are doing this is because you are a moslim and you want to prove your case ,, you are not a moslim becasue you counted the letters but you are counting the letters because you are a moslim ,
wake up and look around man ,, we are not in 17 th century ,,,
take the next best rap song and give it to a mathematician and he will find a lot equations proving it to be statistically relevant ,, what does that mean ,, that it is rithmic ,, that its a song ,, nothing more nothing less,
nothing to do with divine ,,
good morning

Peace mho,

Rather than spew cuss words and ignorance, please present your evidence. It is true that everything is mathematically composed, but we know of nothing as amazing as the intricate system of the Qu'ran. Even obsessive numerologists could not come up with something similar. Take into factor that this is a Scripture from 1400 years ago, and it becomes that much more amazing.

Peace.

 

[Bowman]

Peace mho,

Rather than spew cuss words and ignorance, please present your evidence. It is true that everything is mathematically composed, but we know of nothing as amazing as the intricate system of the Qu'ran. Even obsessive numerologists could not come up with something similar. Take into factor that this is a Scripture from 1400 years ago, and it becomes that much more amazing.

Peace.

Other than the centerpiece (19.19) of the '19' phenomenon referring directly to Jesus' divinity, how does it compare to the Biblical Theomatics?

Theomatics

 

[Snowber]

Other than the centerpiece (19.19) of the '19' phenomenon referring directly to Jesus' divinity, how does it compare to the Biblical Theomatics?

Theomatics

Interesting website, I only took a quick look but if it is truly a valid claim then it further confirms the Qu'ran's miracle as well, in my opinion.

Let's see why:

Rabbi Judah the Pious

[46:10] Say, "What if it is from GOD and you disbelieved in it? A witness from the Children of Israel has borne witness to a similar phenomenon,* and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant. Surely, GOD does not guide the wicked people."

So the Bible did have a similar mathematical evidence as the Qu'ran? That's what GOD says.

So who is this child of Israel? And what's this "similar phenomenon?"

To find out we look at page 91 of a book called "Studies of Jewish Mysticism".

..the words and letters of the various prayers are not accidental, nor are they only vehicles for their literal meaning. Their order, especially their numbers, reflect a mystical harmony, a sacred divine rhythm. This mystical harmony can be discovered in historical events, directed by God; in nature, especially in the miraculous occurrences directly influenced by divine powers; and first and foremost, in the Bible. According to Rabbi Judah and the Ashkenazi Hasidic school in general, there can be nothing accidental in the Bible, not even the forms of letters, the punctuation, the vocalization, and especially-in the numerical structures-the number of certain letters, consonants or vowels in a certain verse; the number of words from the same root; the number and variety of divine names in a certain pericope, the absence of one or more letters from a chapter, and many other elements of the Scriptures besides their content.


Joseph Dan writes that Rabbi Judah was critical of the French and British Jews when they altered the morning prayer by adding a few words (Ibid., p. 88). Rabbi Judah pointed out that such an addition destroys the numerical structure of the prayer and renders it utterly nullified. He maintained that it is the "numerical combination," rather than the "meanings" of the words that effects the needed contact between the worshiper and God. Even the specific, nineteen-based, numerical system of the scripture was reported by Rabbi Judah:

The people [Jews] in France made it a custom to add [in the morning prayer] the words: " 'Ashrei temimei derekh [blessed are those who walk the righteous way]," and our Rabbi, the Pious, of blessed memory, wrote that they were completely and utterly wrong. It is all gross falsehood, because there are only nineteen times that the Holy Name is mentioned [in that portion of the morning prayer] ...and similarly you find the word 'Elohim nineteen times in the pericope of Ve-'elleh shemot.... Similarly, you find that Israel is called "sons" nineteen times, and there are many other examples. All these sets of nineteen are intricately intertwined, and they contain many secrets and esoteric meanings, which are contained in more than eight large volumes. Therefore, anyone who has the fear of God in him will not listen to the words of the Frenchmen who add the verse "'Ashrei temimei derekh," and blessed are the righteous who walk in the paths of God's Torah, for according to their additions the Holy Name is mentioned twenty times...and this is a great mistake.

Furthermore, in this section there are 152 words (152 = 19 x 8) but if you add "'Ashrei temimei derekh" there are 158 words. This is nonsense, for it is a great and hidden secret why there should be 152 words...but it cannot be explained in a short treatise. ...In order to understand this religious phenomenon, we have to take the basic contention of this treatise exactly as it is stated: every addition or omission of a word, or even of a single letter, from the sacred text of the prayers destroys the religious meaning of the prayer as a whole and is to be regarded as a grave sin, a sin which could result in eternal exile for those who commit it.... (STUDIES IN JEWISH MYSTICISM, pp. 88-89)

This is amazing and, in my opinion, alone provides strong, if not irrefutable, evidence that all Scriptures are mathematically composed.

Even MORE interesting is that Rabbi Judah speaks of the prayer being centered around the NUMBER 19! The same number that is the backbone of the Qu'ran's mathematical code.

It is profound indeed that Galileo made his famous statement: "Mathematics is the language with which God created the universe."

 

[Bowman]

Interesting website, I only took a quick look but if it is truly a valid claim then it further confirms the Qu'ran's miracle as well, in my opinion.

Let's see why:

[46:10] Say, "What if it is from GOD and you disbelieved in it? A witness from the Children of Israel has borne witness to a similar phenomenon,* and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant. Surely, GOD does not guide the wicked people."


So the Bible did have a similar mathematical evidence as the Qu'ran? That's what GOD says.

So who is this child of Israel? And what's this "similar phenomenon?"

Brother...

Could you please point out the word rendered as 'a similar phenomenon'....thanks...

قل أرءيتم إن كان من عند الله وكفرتم به وشهد شاهد من بني إسرءيل على مثله فءامن واستكبرتم إن الله لا يهدي القوم الظلمين​

Qul araaytum in kana min AAindi Allahi wakafartum bihi washahida shahidun min banee isra-eela AAala mithlihi faamana waistakbartum inna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

 

[Snowber]

Brother...

Could you please point out the word rendered as 'a similar phenomenon'....thanks...

قل أرءيتم إن كان من عند الله وكفرتم به وشهد شاهد من بني إسرءيل على مثله فءامن واستكبرتم إن الله لا يهدي القوم الظلمين​

Qul araaytum in kana min AAindi Allahi wakafartum bihi washahida shahidun min banee isra-eela AAala mithlihi faamana waistakbartum inna Allaha la yahdee alqawma alththalimeena

The word is, literally, "similarity".

So if you'd rather use a different translation we could take:

Say: "Do you see that if it were from God, and you rejected it, and a witness from the Children of Israel testified to its similarity, and he has believed, while you have turned arrogant? Surely, God does not guide the wicked people."

It is the historical fact that Rabbi Judah the pious was aware of a similar code in the Bible based on the number 19 that helps us understand what this "similarity" is referring to in the verse.

Even if we throw away this verse completely, it is difficult to deny that relevance between the Qu'ran's "19 code" and the "19 code" of the Bible, as witnessed by Rabbi Judah the Pious.

 

[love]

Peace to both of you brothers, we come from One and the same.




The Qu'ran had one author, GOD. Saying Jesus is GOD's only begotten son is not only a blasphemy (which Jesus will bear witness against all Christians who believe this on the Day of Ressurection) but also a contradiction to the Bible itself. Here is a short answer to this that comes from "Jesus: Myths and Message" by Lisa Spray. You may also be interested in "The Myth of GOD incarnate" written by some excellent Christian scholars who have come to the conclusion that Jesus was NOT the blood son of GOD. GOD forbid.



For the whole book see:

Jesus: Myths and Message



The Qu'ran is from GOD, that's enough spirituality for me. Seeing spirituality in any Scripture is objective. Here you have physical proof in the Qu'ran mathematically and scientifically. Instead, we follow what our parents taught us, even though they may be wrong. It's a shame =/

Peace.

Are we a generation that seeks a sign?
I think we are the most inquistive generation of all time.
If you think the Qur'an is the word of God and was handed down to all mankind exclusively through the prophet Muhammed and it makes your life whole I am truly happy for you.
A lot of us spend a life time wasting away in darkness not knowing which way to turn. Some of us don't try to figure it out and go out in the morning and enjoy a beautiful sunrise for what it is.

 

[Bowman]

The word is, literally, "similarity".

So if you'd rather use a different translation we could take:



It is the historical fact that Rabbi Judah the pious was aware of a similar code in the Bible based on the number 19 that helps us understand what this "similarity" is referring to in the verse.

Even if we throw away this verse completely, it is difficult to deny that relevance between the Qu'ran's "19 code" and the "19 code" of the Bible, as witnessed by Rabbi Judah the Pious.

Thanks for skirting the issue, brother.

By your response, it is painfully clear that you do not know any Arabic whatsoever....yes?

Seems you are only aware of what you google from the web....not that you actually bother to study the actual Arabic itself.

 

[Ordeet]

If we want to discuss the validity of the Quran, establish what we mean by validity:

validity - The state of being valid, authentic or genuine; Having legal force; A quality of a measurement indicating the degree to which the measure reflects the underlying construct, that is, whether it measures what it purports to measure (see reliability)

valid - Well grounded or justifiable, pertinent; Acceptable, proper or correct; Related to the current topic, or presented within context, relevant; A formula or system that evaluates to true regardless of the input values

Logically this means that to be in a state of validity, the quran must exhibit attributes that make it well-grounded, pertinent, acceptable, proper, or correct. It should also have legal force.

So let's see, is the Koran well-grounded?

No. Because it does not provide sound reasoning for its claim, namely that there is only one God, and Mohammed is his messenger other than merely stating it.

Is it pertinent?

No. Because it is a document written for the 7th century world. There may be some verses in the Koran that say that you should act a certain way, which aren't really pertinent or applicable to today's modern lifestyle. For example, fasting during Ramadan - which really has no use other than to encourage a holier-than-thou attitude. Or as other posters have noted encouraging wife-beating. Or encouraging religious wars.

Is it acceptable or proper?

Again, I would say that it's not acceptable. Not acceptable because in essence it attempts to establish Islam as "correct" and all other religions as "incorrect". So it cannot be accepted by Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, and the like. For example, it also encourages people to cut off the hands of thieves, or to kill homosexuals. For that reason, it's both unacceptable and improper to the people that it offends. And therefore it can't really be "universal" in the end.

Is the Quran correct?

I don't know for sure to be honest. Perhaps the Quran says some nice things. I do know that there are lots of scientific errors and contradictions in the Bible. And I would assume there are the same in the Quran. I will post them when I find them.

So the Quran does not actually meet the criteria of being well-grounded, pertinent, acceptable, proper, or correct. It also has no legal force in most of the world, nor should it actually have any force anywhere.

So I conclude that the Koran is not actually valid.

 

[Snowber]

Are we a generation that seeks a sign?
I think we are the most inquistive generation of all time.
If you think the Qur'an is the word of God and was handed down to all mankind exclusively through the prophet Muhammed and it makes your life whole I am truly happy for you.
A lot of us spend a life time wasting away in darkness not knowing which way to turn. Some of us don't try to figure it out and go out in the morning and enjoy a beautiful sunrise for what it is.

Peace love,

The problem with having blind faith, though, is that once something "bad" happens in your life, being the weak humans we are, we immediately resort to doubt. On the other hand, because GOD has provided irrefutable evidence to His existence, those who study this evidence always remember GOD. I do agree that studying whether GOD exists or not is only a small part of it. Developing our souls through worship, appreciate, and so forth is what makes us truly strong.

Thanks for skirting the issue, brother.

By your response, it is painfully clear that you do not know any Arabic whatsoever....yes?

Seems you are only aware of what you google from the web....not that you actually bother to study the actual Arabic itself.

I do know Arabic, maybe not as well as you, but I think enough to refute your over the top translations no one else seems to have come up with, friend.

If GOD is who you are truly after, remove your veil, ask for GOD's help, and He may guide you if He wills, according to your sincerity.

If we want to discuss the validity of the Quran, establish what we mean by validity:

validity - The state of being valid, authentic or genuine; Having legal force; A quality of a measurement indicating the degree to which the measure reflects the underlying construct, that is, whether it measures what it purports to measure (see reliability)

valid - Well grounded or justifiable, pertinent; Acceptable, proper or correct; Related to the current topic, or presented within context, relevant; A formula or system that evaluates to true regardless of the input values

Logically this means that to be in a state of validity, the quran must exhibit attributes that make it well-grounded, pertinent, acceptable, proper, or correct. It should also have legal force.

So let's see, is the Koran well-grounded?

No. Because it does not provide sound reasoning for its claim, namely that there is only one God, and Mohammed is his messenger other than merely stating it.

Is it pertinent?

No. Because it is a document written for the 7th century world. There may be some verses in the Koran that say that you should act a certain way, which aren't really pertinent or applicable to today's modern lifestyle. For example, fasting during Ramadan - which really has no use other than to encourage a holier-than-thou attitude. Or as other posters have noted encouraging wife-beating. Or encouraging religious wars.

Is it acceptable or proper?

Again, I would say that it's not acceptable. Not acceptable because in essence it attempts to establish Islam as "correct" and all other religions as "incorrect". So it cannot be accepted by Jews, Christians, Hindus, Buddhists, Atheists, and the like. For example, it also encourages people to cut off the hands of thieves, or to kill homosexuals. For that reason, it's both unacceptable and improper to the people that it offends. And therefore it can't really be "universal" in the end.

Is the Quran correct?

I don't know for sure to be honest. Perhaps the Quran says some nice things. I do know that there are lots of scientific errors and contradictions in the Bible. And I would assume there are the same in the Quran. I will post them when I find them.

So the Quran does not actually meet the criteria of being well-grounded, pertinent, acceptable, proper, or correct. It also has no legal force in most of the world, nor should it actually have any force anywhere.

So I conclude that the Koran is not actually valid.

Peace Ordeet,

First of all, to use today's definition of valid to the dot is just a way to justify someone's opinion. Now let's look at your claims:

1) The Qu'ran does provide support for the claim that GOD is One and the prophet Muhammad was "one" of his messengers. If you wish to study it, see Islam (Submission)

2) The document was not written ONLY for the 7th century. In fact, it is a perpetual scripture, to guide people through all generations after it's inception. Fasting may have a few purposes, and acting "holier than thou" is not one of them. If someone fasts and acts like this, it is in their error. The most important reason to fast: GOD commanded it. People may find other benefits to it, but the most important reason is for the sake of "feeding" our souls by obeying GOD. As for the claims of the Qu'ran encouraging wife beating, religious wars, etc. This has already been discussed in length, if you wish to see the solid refutations to these claims, you can see them at Answers to Claims of Contradiction in the Qu'ran Now you must ask yourself, is this the ego speaking out of hatred towards a certain people and/or their religion, or genuine truth?

3) The Qu'ran can be followed by anyone, Christian,Jew,Hindu,Atheist,etc,etc. Muslim simply means "Submitter". That is, "Submission to GOD". In fact, the Qu'ran CONFIRMS previous Scripture (Torah/Gospel) and does not reject it. Also, the Qu'ran never commands that a thief should have his hand "cut off", it says his hand should be marked/cut. Also, no where in the Qu'ran does it say that you can kill homosexuals. If we followed your opinions of what should be "valid", we would be blinded by ignorance.

I like your "steps" to concluding the Qu'ran is incorrect, except for that they are totally invalid. Please take time to study both sides, and if you wish to discuss it more, create a thread about the subject or in the one to one debate section.

Peace be upon you.

 

[Bowman]

Muslim simply means "Submitter". That is, "Submission to GOD".

Which 'God', brother....?

In fact, the Qu'ran CONFIRMS previous Scripture (Torah/Gospel) and does not reject it.

Then why do you reject it, brother?