Evidence of NOAH's FLOOD

[Subduction Zone]

why do you continue to make these kinds of comments without referencing? Whether or not what you claim is true, if people are to believe your claims, at least provide them with an avenue of checking your claims to determine if in fact what you say is accurate, and to help resolve the second part of your claim "since then all of them have joined the party".

Two reasons. First when a person makes multiple claims in a post they only merit a short correction. If one wants to go into detail then do so properly. Ask one question at a time. Second I thought that that fact was well known.

Do you not consider WHY "since then all of them have joined the party"? Would that not be evidence even from your own comment that it is self defeating in that those individuals realized they were wrong and changed their minds?

I know why. The evidence is repeatable. Anyone can go out and observe the same evidence that they observed. And no, even if none of them joined the party so to speak the evidence would still be there.

Its like you just pull this bull**** out of thin air without even considering it kills your own argument "in one fell swoop"! Its ok to do this occasionally, but for you...its like 90% of the time.

No, if you do not understand something that is your problem. If you want to learn all you have to do is to ask proper questions. But most creationists cannot even do that.

Seriously, if you want more details all that you have to do is to ask.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

Using the best of our knowledge which is limited in this area.

It seems you want our knowledge to be more limited than it is. I've seen the calculations for how much energy would potentially be released from all the rain and even sound estimates for the rapid movement of continents. It isn't a pretty picture. I think we know more than enough to rationally concluded that not only is there no evidence for a flood, the events described wouldn't be possible and leave the earth salvageable as living space. The ark would have been boiled like a potato from all that energy.

Of course, this is your view vs my view. Not necessarily wrong but definitely different. My position certainly has some points that are valid in my position.

It is a fact that there are cultures that had no flood myths. It is a fact that there are very similar stories from two much older cultures that are strikingly similar to the Genesis account. Given that the Genesis account should technically be the oldest if it is based on an actual event and had the inside scoop, it doesn't make sense that it appears derivative. It is also a fact that there are many cultures with flood myths that are about local floods. Not to mention the fact of continuity of cultures with no evidence of being wiped out and rebuilt to seem as if nothing happened.

Yes, possible. IMV - improbable. We escape to high ground today because we know. In those days, you would never know to run until it was too late. So I’m not sure there is a point here.

Why would people that live near water not have the experience and knowledge to go to high ground, just because it was in those days? They would likely know better than we do.

Nothing has been contradictory.

For the flood to have occurred as described, it would have to contradict the laws of nature given that the energy released would be so devastating.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I believe the distance of a cubit has been done by experts with the difference being about 2 inches (Babylonian/Egyptian/Hebraic).

It does seem we've gotten a more realistic understanding of a cubit as a measure of length.

Obviously one can call that speculation… as is so much of everything from back then. Even today that are enumerating a new speculation of what happened to the dinosaurs.

I'm not familiar with what you are alluding to regarding dinosaurs. All I can add is that we have evidence of them.

The issue is whether one takes it literally or as an analogy and thus the great discussion. Like I said before, that isn’t what I major in since my focus is on Jesus, his resurrection and his coming back.

On that we can agree.

As far as the flood, I would still hold onto that a catastrophic event happened that impacted the known world. IF it was above each and every peak, I would hold to that the mountains were smaller and multiple earthquakes happened and we have the new jagged mountains of today. If it was analogous, then it simple covered the mountains know to man at that time.

I believe a catastrophic event is the source of the story, but not one near the scale that the story came to describe.

Ancient Flood Legends and Stories from Around the World

Although the biblical story of Noah’s Ark is the best known, numerous cultures all around the globe and throughout history have developed their own versions of...

www.worldhistory.org

I think something did happen but I’m not going to fight someone who doesn’t believe it.

As someone that doesn't view it as a literal event, the basis for that position is the lack of evidence and the considerations we have discussed.

 

[Kenny]

And either way, the Hebrew text still says that the flood height was only 15 cubits.
Genesis 7:20 Hebrew Text Analysis

​

​ Text Analysis Go to Parallel Hebrew Strong's Hebrew English Morphology 2568 [e] חֲמֵ֨שׁ ḥă-mêš Five Number-fsc 6240 [e] עֶשְׂרֵ֤ה ‘eś-rêh [and] ten Number-fsc 520 [e] אַמָּה֙ ’am-māh cubits N-fs 4605 [e] מִלְמַ֔עְלָה mil-ma‘-lāh, upward Prep-m, Prep-l | Adv | 3fs 1396 [e] גָּבְר֖וּ gā-ḇə-rū prevailed V-Qal-Perf-3cp 4325 [e] הַמָּ֑יִם ham-mā-yim; the waters Art | N-mp 3680 [e] וַיְכֻסּ֖וּ way-ḵus-sū and were covered Conj-w | V-Pual-ConsecImperf-3mp 2022 [e] הֶהָרִֽים׃ he-hā-rîm. the mountains Art | N-mp

Do you have a different version?

 

[Monty]

Do you have a different version?

No, which says the total flood height was only 15 cubits, and as confirmed by the KJV & OJB & YLT and many other versions.

 

[Kenny]

It seems you want our knowledge to be more limited than it is. I've seen the calculations for how much energy would potentially be released from all the rain and even sound estimates for the rapid movement of continents. It isn't a pretty picture. I think we know more than enough to rationally concluded that not only is there no evidence for a flood, the events described wouldn't be possible and leave the earth salvageable as living space. The ark would have been boiled like a potato from all that energy.

I see a lot of suppositions here… which you could say I am doing too.

Of course it isn’t a pretty picture. The Japanese tsunami wasn’t a pretty picture. A meteor hitting the earth wouldn’t be a pretty pcitre… so I’m not sure what your point is here.

It is a fact that there are cultures that had no flood myths. It is a fact that there are very similar stories from two much older cultures that are strikingly similar to the Genesis account. Given that the Genesis account should technically be the oldest if it is based on an actual event and had the inside scoop, it doesn't make sense that it appears derivative. It is also a fact that there are many cultures with flood myths that are about local floods. Not to mention the fact of continuity of cultures with no evidence of being wiped out and rebuilt to seem as if nothing happened.

Not much I can go by here…

Why would people that live near water not have the experience and knowledge to go to high ground, just because it was in those days? They would likely know better than we do.

If you are in agriculture and the amount of people are very few in comparison to the billions that we have today, why would you try to grow it on mountainous regions with fertile land in the valleys? How many people do you thing there were 2,500 years ago?

For the flood to have occurred as described, it would have to contradict the laws of nature given that the energy released would be so devastating.

I think the story says it was devastating.

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I believe the distance of a cubit has been done by experts with the difference being about 2 inches (Babylonian/Egyptian/Hebraic).

Obviously one can call that speculation… as is so much of everything from back then. Even today that are enumerating a new speculation of what happened to the dinosaurs.

The issue is whether one takes it literally or as an analogy and thus the great discussion. Like I said before, that isn’t what I major in since my focus is on Jesus, his resurrection and his coming back.

As far as the flood, I would still hold onto that a catastrophic event happened that impacted the known world. IF it was above each and every peak, I would hold to that the mountains were smaller and multiple earthquakes happened and we have the new jagged mountains of today. If it was analogous, then it simple covered the mountains know to man at that time.

Ancient Flood Legends and Stories from Around the World

Although the biblical story of Noah’s Ark is the best known, numerous cultures all around the globe and throughout history have developed their own versions of...

www.worldhistory.org

I think something did happen but I’m not going to fight someone who doesn’t believe it.

Thank you for the link. I read the synopsis. It sounds interesting. I'll enjoy watching it this evening.

 

[Kenny]

No, which says the total flood height was only 15 cubits, and as confirmed by the KJV & OJB & YLT and many other versions.

I don’t think it says that...

I think it says “above the mountains” 15 cubits

 

[Dan From Smithville]

I see a lot of suppositions here… which you could say I am doing too.

Calculations using known data are suppositions?

Of course it isn’t a pretty picture. The Japanese tsunami wasn’t a pretty picture. A meteor hitting the earth wouldn’t be a pretty pcitre… so I’m not sure what your point is here.

My understanding of the physics involved in the 40 days of rain regarding pressure and energy release, coupled with energy released from continental racing would be like the Earth getting shelled by dozens of Chicxulub meteors. No boat or any life would survive except maybe bacteria, but even that would be doubtful.

Not much I can go by here…

If the claim is that the existence of flood stories from different cultures is seen as some universal story that corroborates Genesis, then the fact that such flood myths are not universal shoots that notion in the foot.

If you are in agriculture and the amount of people are very few in comparison to the billions that we have today, why would you try to grow it on mountainous regions with fertile land in the valleys? How many people do you thing there were 2,500 years ago?

That's not the point. I agree that many cultures settled in flood plains and near water. You indicated they wouldn't know what to do in the event of flood and that doesn't make a lot of sense to me, considering they would be very experienced with flooding and what to do.

I think the story says it was devastating.

Not so devastating that 8 people and a boat full of animals couldn't survive. Based on the physics involved, the nothing would survive. That kind of devastating.

 

[Monty]

I don’t think it says that...

I think it says “above the mountains” 15 cubits

No it doesn't. The Hebrew text says that the total flood height was only 15 cubits and as confirmed by the KJV & OJB & YLT and many other versions, and does not say anything about the depth of water above the highest hills in the flooded area nor the height of the highest hills.

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered. (OJB)
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. (KJV)
Fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered; (YLT)

Any other interpretation of the Hebrew text is totally irrelevant and useless unless they tell us what the actual flood height was.

 

[Subduction Zone]

I see a lot of suppositions here… which you could say I am doing too.

Of course it isn’t a pretty picture. The Japanese tsunami wasn’t a pretty picture. A meteor hitting the earth wouldn’t be a pretty pcitre… so I’m not sure what your point is here.




Not much I can go by here…



If you are in agriculture and the amount of people are very few in comparison to the billions that we have today, why would you try to grow it on mountainous regions with fertile land in the valleys? How many people do you thing there were 2,500 years ago?



I think the story says it was devastating.

Many areas in the world have been affected by catastrophic flooding. The reason that that fact is not evidence for a global flood is that many of those real events can be dated. And they did not happen at anywhere near the same time. There were catastrophic floods across easter Washington, actually quite a few of them. those took place about 14,000 to 18,000 years ago (there were over 40 of them):

Channeled Scablands - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

If people were here at that time those would have left some memories.

There were some similar floods in upstate New York, in fact all over the northern hemisphere there were floods at different times as the glacial ice retreated from the last major glaciation. We can still see that sort of flood sometimes today. They are called Glacial Lake Outburst Floods:

Glacial lake outburst flood - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

There are other causes of floods too. As you noted, tsunamis can cause floods. There can even be massive floods of areas such as the Tigris and Euphrates valley system. But here is the point: They all occurred at different times. People that lived in those areas will remember large floods an local legends will arise. Stories grow with the telling so a flood that made it seem as if everything local was flood easily becomes the entire world being flooded. Since the causes of many of those floods can be discovered and they are at different times that is actually evidence against the flood of Noah. Not evidence for it.

 

[YoursTrue]

Quite amazing!!

Indeed.

 

[Subduction Zone]

One more thing, Kenny, in reference to debris+ -- Japan Tsunami Marine Debris: A Look Back Five Years Later.
This obviously affects the surface and surface soil and more shifting places. (Another subject perhaps though.)

Do you realize that there are ways to tell if sediments have been disturbed or not before consolidation?

 

[shunyadragon]

Hmmm…. I don’t think we can go back millions of years and actually establish which earthquakes happened. I doubt if we could go back 4000 years either

Oh my! Your ignorance is profound. I am a geologist with over fifty years of experience. Yes, we can trace earthquake history in fault zones for millions of years at least. I have traveled along the San Andras Fault Zone several times in different places, and you can literally see the geologic history of the incremental movement in the region.

San Andreas Fault - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

The main southern section of the San Andreas Fault proper has only existed for about 5 million years. The first known incarnation of the southern part of the fault was Clemens Well-Fenner-San Francisquito fault zone around 22–13 Ma. This system added the San Gabriel Fault as a primary focus of movement between 10–5 Ma.

 

[shunyadragon]

I am confused.

You claimed:

So how is there any life on the planet now?

I did not claim this the account of Noah's flood in Genesis was true as claimed as a world flood quite plainly and literally. I claimed the flood never happened and Noah's Ark never existed.

In the context of the Biblical World Wide flood, which I have assumed you were talking about given the "world flood" part at the end of your claim, the purpose of the Ark was to save specific life God felt should be saved.

In the context of the Biblical account, yes, but I consider it borrowed and edited from more ancient Sumerian records, and again the Noah's flood never happened and the Ark never existed.

 

[shunyadragon]

There have been plenty of major river floods on the Tigris & Euphrates rivers and other rivers around the world which have drowned people and their animals and the flood heights have often been much more than 15 cubits. And billions of people agree. And the biblical story is obviously just based on those floods and not tidal floods or tsunamis. And thousands of rabbis agree.

Flopping the subject with sarcasm does not help your case. The Biblical text does not anywhere state that it was a river flood, and the text is clear and specific all human and animal life was destroyed except what was on the Ark by a world flood. The Rabbis cited basically agree the text describes a world flooded with variations as to what the text may be interpreted to mean,

You asked that I consult Rabbis and I have done that. Remember it is their scripture in their language. They clearly and specifically stated that the text describes a world flood ordained by God to punish humanity.

And it's your choice if you want to believe the story is purely fictional, or whether it was based on a particular flood event which drowned most of the members of a family and their community and most of their animals.

Well, yes, by the evidence Noah's flood never happened and the Ark never existed as described in the Bible.

No, it is an edited and compiled version of earlier Sumerian texts where it claimed the Gods caused the world flood that killed everything except those saved in their "boat."

The text of Genesis is specific in all translations. All the humans and animals were destroyed except for those on the Ark.

Your bathtub version with drowned rubber ducks does not fit the text

 

[shunyadragon]

And either way, the Hebrew text still says that the flood height was only 15 cubits.
Genesis 7:20 Hebrew Text Analysis

​

​ Text Analysis Go to Parallel Hebrew Strong's Hebrew English Morphology 2568 [e] חֲמֵ֨שׁ ḥă-mêš Five Number-fsc 6240 [e] עֶשְׂרֵ֤ה ‘eś-rêh [and] ten Number-fsc 520 [e] אַמָּה֙ ’am-māh cubits N-fs 4605 [e] מִלְמַ֔עְלָה mil-ma‘-lāh, upward Prep-m, Prep-l | Adv | 3fs 1396 [e] גָּבְר֖וּ gā-ḇə-rū prevailed V-Qal-Perf-3cp 4325 [e] הַמָּ֑יִם ham-mā-yim; the waters Art | N-mp 3680 [e] וַיְכֻסּ֖וּ way-ḵus-sū and were covered Conj-w | V-Pual-ConsecImperf-3mp 2022 [e] הֶהָרִֽים׃ he-hā-rîm. the mountains Art | N-mp ordained

Correct!!!!! The text describes a world flood ordained by God that covered the mountains by 15 cubits and killed all humans and animals not on the Ark The three Rabbis I cited are more literate in their language and understand the 'proper' text analysis above better than you.

 

[Monty]

Correct!

IOW, your three "rabbis" are illiterate since common sense reading of the Hebrew text obviously says that the flood was only 15 cubits high and only affected Noah's little world within the horizon under the dome-shaped tent-like heavens where he and his family dwelt, which is confirmed by the KJV & OJB & YLT interpretations, and doesn't meaninglessly say that the mountains were covered by 15 cubits without stating the actual height of the flood. And why on Earth would the writer meaninglessly say that the highest hills were covered by 15 cubits without also saying how high the flood actually was and/or saying how high the highest hills were. Your personal interpretation lacks any credibility.

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered. (OJB)
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. (KJV)
Fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered; (YLT)

 

[Monty]

Flopping the subject with sarcasm does not help your case. The Biblical text does not anywhere state that it was a river flood, and the text is clear and specific all human and animal life was destroyed except what was on the Ark by a world flood. The Rabbis cited basically agree the text describes a world flooded with variations as to what the text may be interpreted to mean,

So where does the bible say that the flood story wasn't based on a river flood, given it says it was only 15 cubits high and only covered the land to the horizon within the dome-shaped tent-like heavens as described in Isaiah 40:22. And if you claim that the embellished story wasn't based on frequent river floods which are often higher than 15 cubits, then what type of flood did the writer base the fictional story on.

You asked that I consult Rabbis and I have done that. Remember it is their scripture in their language. They clearly and specifically stated that the text describes a world flood ordained by God to punish humanity.

IOW the rabbis say the story was just a fantasy. But doesn't change the fact that the Hebrew text obviously says the flood was only 15 cubits high as confirmed by the writers of the KJV & OJB & YLT etc, and doesn't meaninglessly say the mountains were covered by 15 cubits without stating the actual height of the flood.

Fifteen cubits upward did the waters rise; and the harim were covered. (OJB)
Fifteen cubits upward did the waters prevail; and the mountains were covered. (KJV)
Fifteen cubits upwards have the waters become mighty, and the mountains are covered; (YLT)

 

[Kenny]

Oh my! Your ignorance is profound.

typical answer when someone is loosing ground.

I am a geologist with over fifty years of experience. Yes, we can trace earthquake history in fault zones for millions of years at least. I have traveled along the San Andras Fault Zone several times in different places, and you can literally see the geologic history of the incremental movement in the region.

Appeal to authority. You can “interpret” what you see and you assume much.

The main southern section of the San Andreas Fault proper has only existed for about 5 million years. The first known incarnation of the southern part of the fault was Clemens Well-Fenner-San Francisquito fault zone around 22–13 Ma. This system added the San Gabriel Fault as a primary focus of movement between 10–5 Ma.

How old are you? Was these faults the ones may have happened at that time? A lot of assumptions here