• Welcome to Religious Forums, a friendly forum to discuss all religions in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to the following site features:
    • Reply to discussions and create your own threads.
    • Our modern chat room. No add-ons or extensions required, just login and start chatting!
    • Access to private conversations with other members.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon!

Evidence of NOAH's FLOOD

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
I know. And you probably know that I know too. Of course he will just deny the dating methods without any evidence. That is the problem with being any stripe of creationist. The scientific evidence is always against those people and for some reason all of them are too afraid to make their own proper testable hypotheses.
Animal carcasses recovered from melting permafrost represent animals killed by a single global flood event that took place between 3000 and 3400 years ago. These animals would all have died within the early part of that event within a short space of time less than one year.

What would falsify this?

The evidence of these carcasses reveals that they did not all die between 3,000 and 3,400 years ago. They died at various times over a period of millennia and as far back as 40 to 50 thousand years. They are all or mostly mammals. There is no mix of all species. They do not bear the evidence of having been drowned in a raging flood.

Hypothesis falsified.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Animal carcasses recovered from melting permafrost represent animals killed by a single global flood event that took place between 3000 and 3400 years ago. These animals would all have died within the early part of that event within a short space of time less than one year.

What would falsify this?

The evidence of these carcasses reveals that they did not all die between 3,000 and 3,400 years ago. They died at various times over a period of millennia and as far back as 40 to 50 thousand years. They are all or mostly mammals. There is no mix of all species. They do not bear the evidence of having been drowned in a raging flood.

Hypothesis falsified.
Shhh! You were not supposed to give the answer! Now he will never learn . . . . Okay. does anyone believe that he ever would let himself do this? Even creationists that have worked in the sciences and published papers seem to know that any proper test would refute creationism, not support it. They all seem to be scared to death of applying the scientific method properly.
 

Dan From Smithville

He who controls the spice controls the universe.
Staff member
Premium Member
Shhh! You were not supposed to give the answer! Now he will never learn . . . . Okay. does anyone believe that he ever would let himself do this? Even creationists that have worked in the sciences and published papers seem to know that any proper test would refute creationism, not support it. They all seem to be scared to death of applying the scientific method properly.
It is belief, so all that can be done is what we see. Attack science.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
I know you know. It is just more profitable to respond to someone that isn't repeating claims that didn't float in the first place as if they had stood up to the rising waters of defeat.
Now you just don’t want to talk with me, huh?
You know, you used to be pretty cool. We’d discuss things decently and amiably.
But then I asked you a couple questions for you to explain your faith, but you accused me of attacking you!

By asking you questions?!

That came across as insecurity, one who’s not sure what they believe about their religious stance.

What I said made too much sense, and it scared you, maybe.

Because, really, those claims do float! (Pardon the pun.)
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
Now you just don’t want to talk with me, huh?
You know, you used to be pretty cool. We’d discuss things decently and amiably.
But then I asked you a couple questions for you to explain your faith, but you accused me of attacking you!

By asking you questions?!

That came across as insecurity, one who’s not sure what they believe about their religious stance.

What I said made too much sense, and it scared you, maybe.

Because, really, those claims do float! (Pardon the pun.)

If a person cannot learn from their errors it is rather difficult to maintain a conversation with them.

You should post your claims in the form of proper scientific hypotheses. Then, if your hypotheses is not refuted, you can claim to have scientific evidence for your beliefs.

It may take a few tries because you will probably mess up on the fact that it has to be testable based on the predictions that it makes.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ppp

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
The evidence of these carcasses reveals that they did not all die between 3,000 and 3,400 years ago. They died at various times over a period of millennia and as far back as 40 to 50 thousand years.
C-14 dating is not reliable, on life forms prior to the Flood, I’ve explained this.

Due to the halo of water in Earths upper atmosphere, it created a greenhouse-effect, disrupting normal carbon levels.

That’s why c-14 dating is found to be wildly unpredictable, on organic matter more than 5000 years old.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
C-14 dating is not reliable, on life forms prior to the Flood, I’ve explained this.

Due to the halo of water in Earths upper atmosphere, it created a greenhouse-effect, disrupting normal carbon levels.

That’s why c-14 dating is found to be wildly unpredictable, on organic matter more than 5000 years old.
Sorry, but that is just wild hand waving. You need evidence if you want to claim that C-14 dating is not reliable. By the way, when was the Flood? We can probably put this claim of yours to the test.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Yes, as some were frozen shortly after death and were covered over on way or another in the Arctic area, so there's no real surprise for that.
“Covered over one way or another”?

Come on.

Many of these are found well-preserved…. They are being discovered down in the Permafrost, which explains their preserved status.
What isn’t explained…in fact, it’s mostly overlooked (conveniently?)... is how they got trapped within it.

I do appreciate your friendly demeanor, metis.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
“Covered over one way or another”?

Come on.

Many of these are found well-preserved…. They are being discovered down in the Permafrost, which explains their preserved status.
What isn’t explained…in fact, it’s mostly overlooked (conveniently?)... is how they got trapped within it.

I do appreciate your friendly demeanor, metis.
I gave a better explanation than you did. You seem to have forgotten that.
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
Really? What would happen to you if your church decided to shun you? No more going to church. No more worshipping with others. All of your church acquaintances gone. How would you do?

This is not my “livelihood”….

“Livelihood” was the topic, remember?

According to Wikipedia, et. al.,
A person's livelihood refers to their "means of securing the basic necessities of life".

So another non-sequitur.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
This is not my “livelihood”….

“Livelihood” was the topic, remember?

According to Wikipedia, et. al.,
A person's livelihood refers to their "means of securing the basic necessities of life".

So another non-sequitur.
I was not the one that used that term originally. but I knew what was meant. Being overly literal is not a good trait. It leads to all sorts of problems when it comes to understanding various forms of communication.

Meanwhile have you figured out a way to support your rant about C-14? Until you do you only have a complaint against reality. That does you no good at all.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ppp

Heyo

Veteran Member
C-14 dating is not reliable, on life forms prior to the Flood, I’ve explained this.
How do you know? Was that published in a respected, peer reviewed journal?
Scientists working with C-14 dating could probably know a thing or two about that. Do you love science enough to look into that?
Due to the halo of water in Earths upper atmosphere, it created a greenhouse-effect, disrupting normal carbon levels.
How do you know? Was that published in a respected, peer reviewed journal?
Scientists working with C-14 dating could probably know a thing or two about that. Do you love science enough to look into that?
That’s why c-14 dating is found to be wildly unpredictable, on organic matter more than 5000 years old.
Says who?
If you'd love science or at least respect science, you'd listen to scientists trying to explain why those who are trying to tell you (and through you, us) are lying - or simply mistaken.

Why do you say you love science when you clearly don't? Why don't you embrace your role? You are team religion.
To play on team science you have to accept the rules and the rules are that you have to use the scientific method.

Don't be greedy again, you can't dance on two weddings. Pick a side (or no side) but you can't be on both sides.
 

wellwisher

Well-Known Member
In the story of the Great Flood it rained forty days and nights. This tells us something about which great flood scenarios would or would not work. The Mediterranean Sea filling scenario does not necessarily require or create a lingering storm, that lasts over a month. That scenario could also happen in sunny weather. That scenario does not check all the boxes.

The best scenario I could come up with, that can check all the boxes, is connected to a recent discovery by science, of oceans of water, below the crust, in the upper mantle. Say there was an earthquake, that create a small fissure, that allows this very hot high pressure super ionic water to lower pressure, phase change, and work its way to the surface. It then open the fissure, wider and wider, as it time goes on.

It would eventually be like a huge steam geyser, that gets stronger and stronger, filling the atmosphere with hot water and steam. As it grows, clouds form and spread across the globe. There is an ocean of water below the crust and this scenario does not need all of it. It would create very serious rain storms, with torrential rains, until all the added atmospheric water falls from the atmosphere; mass flooding everywhere. As it rains and drains over forty days and nights, the oceans rise.

Science has found a large scar on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, where the crust is fully eroded away, and the mantle is exposed. This suggests such a scenario may have happened. It is hard to tell when, until they can test the scar to see how fresh it is. El Niño might form from a smaller sub ocean water vent; old faithful.

The supersonic water in the upper mantle is part of a mineral matrix like water in a sponge. If we lower the pressure the supersonic water changes phase into super critical or hydrothermal water, with much less permeability in that same mantle mineral phase. The water separates out. and the mantle solids separate out, to fill the scar.

The legends of Atlantis, seems to place a catastrophic event in the Atlantic Ocean.
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
“Covered over one way or another”?

Come on.
My understanding is that most fell into crevices on the glacier and basically got buried. I know with certainty that at least some did.
Many of these are found well-preserved…. They are being discovered down in the Permafrost, which explains their preserved status.
What isn’t explained…in fact, it’s mostly overlooked (conveniently?)... is how they got trapped within it.
One found in Siberia was so well-preserved that the carcass was secretly brought to London and some of the meat served at dinner with fellow paleontologists not knowing what meat they were eating. And then the skin and bones were displayed to the shock of the diners.
I do appreciate your friendly demeanor, metis.

Ditto, Hockeycowboy.

BTW, I used to play lotsa pickup hockey here in Michigan and had a hocky rink right next to the home I grew up in.

How about you?
 

metis

aged ecumenical anthropologist
The point of the Flood narrative is not that it happened as history but that the basic teachings found within help to form some basic teachings within halacha. To insist that it's actual history tends to obscure those teachings by taking the focus off of them.
 

Subduction Zone

Veteran Member
In the story of the Great Flood it rained forty days and nights. This tells us something about which great flood scenarios would or would not work. The Mediterranean Sea filling scenario does not necessarily require or create a lingering storm, that lasts over a month. That scenario could also happen in sunny weather. That scenario does not check all the boxes.

The best scenario I could come up with, that can check all the boxes, is connected to a recent discovery by science, of oceans of water, below the crust, in the upper mantle. Say there was an earthquake, that create a small fissure, that allows this very hot high pressure super ionic water to lower pressure, phase change, and work its way to the surface. It then open the fissure, wider and wider, as it time goes on.

It would eventually be like a huge steam geyser, that gets stronger and stronger, filling the atmosphere with hot water and steam. As it grows, clouds form and spread across the globe. There is an ocean of water below the crust and this scenario does not need all of it. It would create very serious rain storms, with torrential rains, until all the added atmospheric water falls from the atmosphere; mass flooding everywhere. As it rains and drains over forty days and nights, the oceans rise.

Science has found a large scar on the floor of the Atlantic Ocean, where the crust is fully eroded away, and the mantle is exposed. This suggests such a scenario may have happened. It is hard to tell when, until they can test the scar to see how fresh it is. El Niño might form from a smaller sub ocean water vent; old faithful.

The supersonic water in the upper mantle is part of a mineral matrix like water in a sponge. If we lower the pressure the supersonic water changes phase into super critical or hydrothermal water, with much less permeability in that same mantle mineral phase. The water separates out. and the mantle solids separate out, to fill the scar.

The legends of Atlantis, seems to place a catastrophic event in the Atlantic Ocean.
Your timing is off by a huge factor on when the Mediterranean was dry. That was almost 6 million years ago:

 

Astrophile

Active Member
C-14 dating is not reliable, on life forms prior to the Flood, I’ve explained this.

Due to the halo of water in Earths upper atmosphere, it created a greenhouse-effect, disrupting normal carbon levels.
This is begging the question. It assumes the existence of a massive water halo in the upper atmosphere. There is no evidence for any such water halo, and it is probably physically impossible.
That’s why c-14 dating is found to be wildly unpredictable, on organic matter more than 5000 years old.
Have you got a published reference (preferably not a young earth creationist one) for these statements?
 

Hockeycowboy

Witness for Jehovah
Premium Member
By the way, when was the Flood? We can probably put this claim of yours to the test.
Unfortunately, there’s no *one date* that has consensus.

But here are the contenders (in each case, add 2022 years, for a BP [Before Present] date. I’ll do it for you):

3756 BCE; or 5,778 years ago (BP).

3298 BCE (based on LXX); or 5,320 years ago.

2370 BCE (based on MT & Ussher);
or 4,392 years ago.

2348 BCE (based on MT w/o Ussher); or 4,370 years ago.

///////////

3298 BCE based on LXX; or 5,320 years ago might be the most accurate, as it seems to fit nearest when the C-14 discrepancies begin to arise. And the LXX seems to make more sense with the lifespans of those it mentions.

I plan on searching for the “c-14 dating errors past 5,000 yrs ago” data I read. I don’t think it was from any religious site. Unfortunately, I distrust religious sites - especially YEC religious sites - more so than many science-based websites.

Overall, SZ, I’m probably more of a skeptic than you are.

One found in Siberia was so well-preserved that the carcass was secretly brought to London and some of the meat served at dinner with fellow paleontologists not knowing what meat they were eating. And then the skin and bones were displayed to the shock of the diners.
I’ve read about that event, but not sure if it really happened. (That would be cool!)

Do you have a URL which discusses that?

I’m gonna try to search online for it.
 
Top