Evidence that Jesus was the Messiah

[Tumah]

Thank you but no, thanks. I would never be able to follow a Christian. With your invitation above, you have implied that you are not Jewish. Jews do not believe in Satan. Your admittance of Rabbis who are sons of Satan revealed the secret that you are not Jewish. Now, I wonder why you have chosen the most Jewish atavar in the box.

That's a great response. Do you think no one realizes that I'm sarcastically quoting John?
Jews don't believe in Satan? I guess in your mind "real Jews" don't learn Talmud, they follow the teachings of Jesus.

Let's hear more about how you aren't Christian.

 

[Ben Avraham]

That's a great response. Do you think no one realizes that I'm sarcastically quoting John?
Jews don't believe in Satan? I guess in your mind "real Jews" don't learn Talmud, they follow the teachings of Jesus.

Let's hear more about how you aren't Christian.

I quote John many times when discussing a Christian theme and it has never occurred to me that they think I am using of sarcasm. Regarding Satan, that's right, Jews don't believe in Satan. Satan is only a concept to illustrated the evil inclination in man. And for the Talmud, I have learned a lot from it, mind you! I have also read the NT and, 20% of it that's possible to speak as the teachings of Jesus is what coincides with the Tora and the Prophets. 80% is
composed of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to enhance the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

 

[Tumah]

I quote John many times when discussing a Christian theme and it has never occurred to me that they think I am using of sarcasm.

I said I was the one that was using it in sarcasm. I was quoting your Christian scriptures to you in sarcasm.

Regarding Satan, that's right, Jews don't believe in Satan. Satan is only a concept to illustrated the evil inclination in man. And for the Talmud, I have learned a lot from it, mind you! I have also read the NT and, 20% of it that's possible to speak as the teachings of Jesus is what coincides with the Tora and the Prophets. 80% is
composed of anti-Jewish interpolations with the intent to enhance the Pauline policy of Replacement Theology.

As expected of a Christian, you are more familiar with the NT than you are with the Talmud. What you keep saying Jews believe directly contradicts what the Talmud actually says.
I am not surprised mind you. Misrepresenting Jewish beliefs as expressed in the Talmud is a tactic of the more extreme evangelist versions of Christianity like Jews for Jesus.

 

[Ben Avraham]

I said I was the one that was using it in sarcasm. I was quoting your Christian scriptures to you in sarcasm.

As expected of a Christian, you are more familiar with the NT than you are with the Talmud. What you keep saying Jews believe directly contradicts what the Talmud actually says.
I am not surprised mind you. Misrepresenting Jewish beliefs as expressed in the Talmud is a tactic of the more extreme evangelist versions of Christianity like Jews for Jesus.

I got the reason why you have posted the above. You are probably feeling regretful for having given yourself up as a Christian who believes in Satan. You are somehow trying to pay me back with the same suspicion that I had of you. As long as you feel good, I am fine.

 

[rosends]

I got the reason why you have posted the above. You are probably felling regretful for having given yourself up as a Christian who believes in Satan. You are somehow trying to pay me back with the same suspicion that I had of you. As long as you feel good, I am fine.

I have a question -- when you daven maariv, do you say the line "וְהָסֵר שטָן מִלְפָנֵינוּ וּמֵאַחֲרֵינוּ"?

 

[Ben Avraham]

I have a question -- when you daven maariv, do you say the line "וְהָסֵר שטָן מִלְפָנֵינוּ וּמֵאַחֲרֵינוּ"?

Yes, because the term "Satan" here in Hebrew is mentioned in terms of the evil inclination in all of us. As if it were to save us from
ourselves; from our own evil inclinations. Satan does not exist as an evil being. Too Christian to be believed by a Jew.

 

[rosends]

Yes, because the term "Satan" here in Hebrew is mentioned in terms of the evil inclination in all of us. As if it were to save us from
ourselves; from our own evil inclinations. Satan does not exist as an evil being. Too Christian to be believed by a Jew.

so this verse, for example
וַיְהִי הַיּוֹם--וַיָּבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, לְהִתְיַצֵּב עַל-יְהוָה; וַיָּבוֹא גַם-הַשָּׂטָן, בְּתוֹכָם

or maybe entire sets of ideas in the talmud http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/maves.htm
are all "too Christian"?

While it is Christian to see Satan as "evil" it is Jewish to believe that an adversary we refer to as Satan (Hasoton) exists.

 

[Ben Avraham]

so this verse, for example
וַיְהִי הַיּוֹם--וַיָּבֹאוּ בְּנֵי הָאֱלֹהִים, לְהִתְיַצֵּב עַל-יְהוָה; וַיָּבוֹא גַם-הַשָּׂטָן, בְּתוֹכָם

or maybe entire sets of ideas in the talmud http://www.webshas.org/science/misc/super/maves.htm
are all "too Christian"?

While it is Christian to see Satan as "evil" it is Jewish to believe that an adversary we refer to as Satan (Hasoton) exists.

As I can see, the statement in Hebrew above is from the book of Job. The whole book of Job is an allegory. Maimonides said in his book "The Guide for the Perplexed" that the personage Job never really existed. So, in an analogy, parable, vision or dream, every thing is possible even for Satan as a being to persuade HaShem to change His mind. But in reality, a concept
does not turn into a being. Indeed, there are many sets in the Talmud studied as an allegory or midrash. You can refer to an adversary by the name of Satan, because both are concepts. An adversary is a concept that stands as something against common good.

 

[rosends]

As I can see, the statement in Hebrew above is from the book of Job. The whole book of Job is an allegory. Maimonides said in his book "The Guide for the Perplexed" that the personage Job never really existed. So, in an analogy, parable, vision or dream, every thing is possible even for Satan as a being to persuade HaShem to change His mind. But in reality, a concept
does not turn into a being. Indeed, there are many sets in the Talmud studied as an allegory or midrash. You can refer to an adversary by the name of Satan, because both are concepts. An adversary is a concept that stands as something against common good.

Actually, the Rambam quotes opinions including ones saying Job didn't exist and one that he did. There are opinions that the text is allegorical and opinions that it isn't but if you want to hold by what the Rambam states, then you should read this http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9463&st=&pgnum=51 especially the talmudic quote 5 lines down. The question of whether Job existed is not the crux -- the point is that Judaism teaches that there is a force called Hasoton which exists. The Ramban says that the Soton exists (though he actually names him http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14081&st=&pgnum=212 ) but I guess he isn't good enough for you to believe. If you go through the talmudic resources I already gave you, you would see that there is a belief that an adversary, external to man and manifest on a heavenly plane exists and that it operates often by also being imbued into the human and his world. The biblical texts make reference to it as such as well (וַיַּעֲמֹד שָׂטָן עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל וַיָּסֶת אֶת דָּוִיד לִמְנוֹת אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל).

 

[Ben Avraham]

Actually, the Rambam quotes opinions including ones saying Job didn't exist and one that he did. There are opinions that the text is allegorical and opinions that it isn't but if you want to hold by what the Rambam states, then you should read this http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=9463&st=&pgnum=51 especially the talmudic quote 5 lines down. The question of whether Job existed is not the crux -- the point is that Judaism teaches that there is a force called Hasoton which exists. The Ramban says that the Soton exists (though he actually names him http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=14081&st=&pgnum=212 ) but I guess he isn't good enough for you to believe. If you go through the talmudic resources I already gave you, you would see that there is a belief that an adversary, external to man and manifest on aheavenly plane exists and that it operates often by also being imbued into the human and his world. The biblical texts make reference to it as such as well (וַיַּעֲמֹד שָׂטָן עַל יִשְׂרָאֵל וַיָּסֶת אֶת דָּוִיד לִמְנוֹת אֶת יִשְׂרָאֵל).

Rosends, even if I had never read the "Guide for the Perplexed" I would not be of the kind to believe only because it is written. My mind cannot contemporize with the Hellenistic idea that a Devil succeeded in persuading God to change His mind. And I would, no doubt, if we are dealing with an allegory or parable, or trying to understand the dream or vision of a prophet.

 

[rosends]

Rosends, even if I had never read the "Guide for the Perplexed" I would not be of the kind to believe only because it is written. My mind cannot contemporize with the Hellenistic idea that a Devil succeeded in persuading God to change His mind. And I would, no doubt, if we are dealing with an allegory or parable, or trying to understand the dream or vision of a prophet.

You are conflating the idea of a Soton with a Christian idea of a devil. Judaism believes in the former, not the latter.

 

[Ben Avraham]

You are conflating the idea of a Soton with a Christian idea of a devil. Judaism believes in the former, not the latter.

To me, there is no difference between the Devil and Satan. Both are concepts to illustrate the evil inclination in man. By the same token, there is no difference between HaShem and Yahweh as both are names of the same God, Creator of the universe.

 

[rosends]

To me, there is no difference between the Devil and Satan. Both are concepts to illustrate the evil inclination in man. By the same token, there is no difference between HaShem and Yahweh as both are names of the same God, Creator of the universe.

Those are fine opinions to have. Of course, neither is related to Judaism, but there you go.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Those are fine opinions to have. Of course, neither is related to Judaism, but there you go.

And you say that neither is related to Judaism. What then is related to Judaism, Christian beliefs? Pity!

 

[rosends]

And you say that neither is related to Judaism. What then is related to Judaism, Christian beliefs? Pity!

Judaism is related to Judaism. Your beliefs are not: 1. No difference between the devil and Satan and 2. there is no difference between HaShem and Yahweh as both are names of the same God,

I hope that clears that up.

 

[Ben Avraham]

Judaism is related to Judaism. Your beliefs are not: 1. No difference between the devil and Satan and 2. there is no difference between HaShem and Yahweh as both are names of the same God,

I hope that clears that up.

Okay. Now it is your turn. Please, use our Tanach to provide me with an evidence for the difference betwee the devil and Satan. That's according to you because to me, neither exists. Regarding HaShem and Yahweh, I meant no difference as both are references to the same God. Does it help?

 

[psychoslice]

No, of course he wasn't !!.

 

[rosends]

Okay. Now it is your turn. Please, use our Tanach to provide me with an evidence for the difference betwee the devil and Satan. That's according to you because to me, neither exists. Regarding HaShem and Yahweh, I meant no difference as both are references to the same God. Does it help?

You only want the tanach as a source? Well, that's because you deny the validity of an oral Torah, which is fine -- it just further separates you from Judaism.

The simple answer has already been given. The word "Satan" exists in tanach and the word "devil" doesn't. If that doesn't indicate a difference, I don't know what does. One exists according to the text, and one doesn't. Now if you want to posit that both exist (even without mention) and that they are the same, the burden is on you because textually, you are already wrong. If you want to claim that neither exists even though there IS textual reference to one of them, again, the burden is on you since the text disagrees.

And "yahweh" has no value in Judaism and Hashem, while it is a modern reference method (rabbinic, ironically!), is not a name and your claim was "HaShem and Yahweh as both are names of the same God".

 

[Ben Avraham]

You only want the tanach as a source? Well, that's because you deny the validity of an oral Torah, which is fine -- it just further separates you from Judaism.

The simple answer has already been given. The word "Satan" exists in tanach and the word "devil" doesn't. If that doesn't indicate a difference, I don't know what does. One exists according to the text, and one doesn't. Now if you want to posit that both exist (even without mention) and that they are the same, the burden is on you because textually, you are already wrong. If you want to claim that neither exists even though there IS textual reference to one of them, again, the burden is on you since the text disagrees.

And "yahweh" has no value in Judaism and Hashem, while it is a modern reference method (rabbinic, ironically!), is not a name and your claim was "HaShem and Yahweh as both are names of the same God".

All right! Go ahead and use the oral Torah to prove to me the existence of Satan as other than only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Otherwise, it only approaches you to Christianity. I am well aware that the term "Satan" exists in the Tanah but as a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. As a real being, I maintain my position that it does not exist. All I needed is for you to tell me that HaShem, the only God there is has to compete with an evil god.

 

[rosends]

All right! Go ahead and use the oral Torah to prove to me the existence of Satan as other than only a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. Otherwise, it only approaches you to Christianity. I am well aware that the term "Satan" exists in the Tanah but as a concept to illustrate the evil inclination in man. As a real being, I maintain my position that it does not exist. All I needed is for you to tell me that HaShem, the only God there is has to compete with an evil god.

Who says that the Satan is an evil God? You impute that when it has never been claimed. The talmud, through quotes I have already presented, posits the existence of a force under God's control, manifested as an angelic servant, who tempts man. Therefore, the concept is more than just the idea, but a being on some heavenly level. All of this has already been proven through evidence I presented. Reread post 149.