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Evidence

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
When we speak of omni-benevolence we understand it to mean the most caring, charitable, loving, protective and gracious thing possible.

God may have morally sufficient reasons to permit pain and suffering. You are so limited in your knowledge and presence, you don’t have the slightest clue (nor does anyone else) why God allows pain and suffering. As I said before, the majority of pain and suffering that we experience are through our own actions, which I’ve yet see you respond to because the fact of the matter is……for the most part; we all live, suffer, and die as the result of our own actions.

From the evidence we see all around us there plainly is nothing that corresponds with that definition.

We see good people do good things, and bad people do bad things. Bad people will be disciplined, and good people will be rewarded.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
I am not equivocating at all, actually. A necessary truth is a truth that is true in ALL POSSIBLE WORLDS.
Right.

If the “quality” of your presence is necessarily less than maximally great, then you are contingent by default, meaning, there is at least one possible world where your presence is not felt.
Wrong. This is where you equivocate (unless you're simply confused); my slightly less than maximally great being is maximally great in every respect except it lacks maximal knowledge- therefore, its presence is maximally great.

But in any case, this is NOT the argument you give for the possible necessity of a MGB- you argue that it is not self-contradictory that a MGB be possibly necessary- and so by introducing it here to PREVENT the same conclusion from applying to the LGMB is ad hoc and illicit.

No, it is necessary that the LMGB exist CONTINGENTLY.
No. Take your argument, cross out MGB and put in LGMB, and that's the argument. Thus, LGMB's exist necessarily by the same token the MGB's do; it is possible that they are necessary- that is, there is some possible world P such that their existence is necessary.

The argument is the same either way.

So it is necessary for a LMGB to exist contingently, but it is not necessary for a LMGB to exist at all. It could have not existed.
Then the same applies to MGB/God. You want your cake and to eat it too, but you can't have it both ways. Either we can say that BOTH a MGB and a LGMB are possibly necessary (in which case, by your argument, they are actual or actually necessary), seeing as their necessity is not self-contradictory (the definition of possibility), or we say that NEITHER are- but we can't pick one but not the other.

For example, if it is possible for me to exist necessarily, what has to happen in order for me to reach this possibility??
This is a nonsense question. Its pretty obvious you have no background in formal logic, and don't even understand the modal logic your argument relies upon. I suggest you read some introductory background material so you can understand whats going on here- short of that, there's only so much I can explain to you.

So God is responsible for a person that is likes to get drink and get behind the wheel? Wow.
That's not what I said at all.
You are making it up as you go along, aren’t you? I wont even bother responding to this.
Because you have no response available to you; you're caught between a rock and a hard place- either you allow that an infinite number of LGMB's exist necessarily (and that a MGB is not a MGB- a contradiction), or you deny the crucial inference and sweep the rug out from under your own feet.

As I said, you're screwed either way.
 

cottage

Well-Known Member
Well, judging by the fact that I myself have been repeating the same thing OVER AND OVER again to both you and others, I am not the only one that doesn’t read or understand.

Yes you have been repeating the same thing over and over and over again and that’s because you’ve misconceived or ignored what has been said to you in response.

The fact of the matter is I’ve mentioned the infinity problem on more than a dozen occasions and you insist on NOT responding to it.

But throughout you’ve gone blindly on without grasping the essence of my arguments while making assumptions about what you think they should address. If you were to follow what I’ve been saying you’d have seen there isn’t an ‘infinity problem’.

Cot, what are you talking about here? You’ve just admitting yourself that the KA argues to a FIRST CAUSE. So if something is a first cause, then this first cause couldn’t be the product of a prior cause, MAKING IT A NECESSARY CAUSE. So what are you talking about?

I asked you to demonstrate the necessity in causation and you’ve not done so. And the reason you can’t is because the Kalam makes inferences from a features found in the contingent world, and thus necessity can never be demonstrable.


But nothing in time and space cannot be said to have always existed.

…which is precisely the case I’m making.


So if the world is contingent, then what caused the world? Infinite regression once again.

Nothing caused the world. (How many times do I have to say this?) I’m rejecting causation as a necessary principle, along with the mantra that ‘everything that begins to exist is in want of a cause for its existence’, remember? There is no necessary connection between a cause and its effect, and any event and its supposed cause can be entirely distinct and separable.


Keep the terms friendly? I merely repeated what you said to me. What is unfriendly about that?

In order to maintain the fun aspect the tone is important with these debates.
 
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cottage

Well-Known Member
God may have morally sufficient reasons to permit pain and suffering. You are so limited in your knowledge and presence, you don’t have the slightest clue (nor does anyone else) why God allows pain and suffering.

That’s just an argument from ignorance – in other words not an argument at all.
Most damning of all is that a truly benevolent God is plainly possible for the imagination, that is to say a God that doesn’t cause or allow abject suffering. And a benevolent God being possible, ie not contradictory, of course means that there is no necessity involved in the infliction of suffering and thus it cannot be defended by an appeal to ignorance.




As I said before, the majority of pain and suffering that we experience are through our own actions, which I’ve yet see you respond to because the fact of the matter is……for the most part; we all live, suffer, and die as the result of our own actions.

I’ve already answered this (in post 456). Here it is again:
Why, or if, people should suffer is completely irrelevant to the issue. Now it might be said, arguably, that not everyone suffers and therefore God is benevolent. But that simply re-states and confirms the contradiction, for it is shown that God is sometimes benevolent, sometimes not. And in which case he is not omni-benevolent!
And notice how you confirm and agree with the above: The ‘majority of pain and suffering’…and ’for the most part’…




We see good people do good things, and bad people do bad things. Bad people will be disciplined, and good people will be rewarded.

What God has caused/permitted cannot be undone or deleted for even God is unable to manage that. And it demonstrates his poor workmanship that his creation is able to challenge his will.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
So back to the beginning....the singularity.
Accident or no?

Nothing moves without Something to set it into motion.
How would a singularity be an Accident? We don't know what happened prior or how it happened. We don't fully understand it but it is at the height of fallacy to assume "god" did it. Not knowing is fine and the better position by comparison.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
How would a singularity be an Accident? We don't know what happened prior or how it happened. We don't fully understand it but it is at the height of fallacy to assume "god" did it. Not knowing is fine and the better position by comparison.

Really?
Rather than accept a scientific indicator....you prefer ignorance.
 

Sculelos

Active Member
You don't seem to understand evolution. Please watch this video all the way through and pay attention. It is very good and very simple in the way they explain the scientific fact.

Evolution means to gain energy to become greater then that which you were. This happens to everyone who has ever been born, yet the code sequence built into the parameters of your genetic coding is the only thing that allows this to happen. The more time that passes the stricter and more confining the bands become. However in reality life coding can only increase in double or triple amounts. DNA sequence is all about parallel forces (in pairs of 2 or 3) working opposite of Each other to create a living being. If you only have small variations at a time it will never form into living and breathing nano-technology. Essentially the order in nothing wanted you to exist so it doubled or tripled cells and made them work parallel to each other, however if this happens at all it must happen quickly or not at all, a slow process will never ever, ever form life and this is 100% fact which disproves slow changes over time could ever form new creatures.

Really?
Rather than accept a scientific indicator....you prefer ignorance.

Sadly most these day's prefer ignorance to actual real, repeatable and observable information, many refer to it as a technology dumbed down generation as it seems like hardly anyone takes the time to study and evaluate things for themselves anymore.
 

Monk Of Reason

༼ つ ◕_◕ ༽つ
Really?
Rather than accept a scientific indicator....you prefer ignorance.
No. We are both ignorant. I prefer to face the fact I don't know and focus my time and energy towards finding out the truth behind things. You however prefer to take a convenient answer that has no evidence and hold it as truth. We are both ignorant. Just one of us assume they know.
Evolution means to gain energy to become greater then that which you were. This happens to everyone who has ever been born, yet the code sequence built into the parameters of your genetic coding is the only thing that allows this to happen. The more time that passes the stricter and more confining the bands become. However in reality life coding can only increase in double or triple amounts. DNA sequence is all about parallel forces (in pairs of 2 or 3) working opposite of Each other to create a living being. If you only have small variations at a time it will never form into living and breathing nano-technology. Essentially the order in nothing wanted you to exist so it doubled or tripled cells and made them work parallel to each other, however if this happens at all it must happen quickly or not at all, a slow process will never ever, ever form life and this is 100% fact which disproves slow changes over time could ever form new creatures.
You have fun with that.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Or open-mindedness. "Not knowing" can indicate more than one viable option is before us.

So let's use an open mind ...and science.....

The singularity is a creation?
And What set it into motion?

Let's not play ignorant....you can do this.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
No. We are both ignorant. I prefer to face the fact I don't know and focus my time and energy towards finding out the truth behind things. You however prefer to take a convenient answer that has no evidence and hold it as truth. We are both ignorant. Just one of us assume they know.
You have fun with that.

Note previous post.
 

Thief

Rogue Theologian
Can you please define a singularity?

That 'condition' at the very 'beginning'.

When science speaks of it, most speakers would have you envision a grain sized 'glob'.
And no discussion is offered other than high heat and intense gravity.

But I say...
For the singularity to be truly singular ....no secondary point can be allowed.
In simple geometry, between any two points there are an infinite number of points.

The instant a secondary is allowed....infinity takes hold.

The void is shattered.

Now read Genesis.
And perhaps you can see....light, is an aberration.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
That 'condition' at the very 'beginning'.

When science speaks of it, most speakers would have you envision a grain sized 'glob'.
And no discussion is offered other than high heat and intense gravity.

But I say...
For the singularity to be truly singular ....no secondary point can be allowed.
In simple geometry, between any two points there are an infinite number of points.

The instant a secondary is allowed....infinity takes hold.

The void is shattered.

Now read Genesis.
And perhaps you can see....light, is an aberration.

You havent given a definition. So please what is a singularity?

How is it formed? And what does it do?
 

Call_of_the_Wild

Well-Known Member
Wrong. This is where you equivocate (unless you're simply confused);

Well this is the first time that you even remotely defined what you meant by a slightly maximally great being, despite being asked to.

my slightly less than maximally great being is maximally great in every respect except it lacks maximal knowledge- therefore, its presence is maximally great.

This can't be the case because if this being is omnipotent, he/she can do anything that is logically possible, and it is logically possible for such a being to be omniscient....so there is no good reason for you to give that will allow such a being to be omnipotent in all other areas except for knowledge.

But in any case, this is NOT the argument you give for the possible necessity of a MGB- you argue that it is not self-contradictory that a MGB be possibly necessary- and so by introducing it here to PREVENT the same conclusion from applying to the LGMB is ad hoc and illicit.

Ad hoc and illicit? Not at all, because unlike you, I can give reasons why the concept of a LGMB is irrational. First off, you said this being possesses all the omni's EXCEPT for omniscience, and I already explained why that wouldn't work. So if such a being cannot be omnipotent while also lacking the attribute of omniscience, then that would mean that such a being cannot be either omnipotent and or omniscient (you already stated that this being isn't omniscient).

So that only leaves omnipresence. If such a being is omnipresent but lacks omniscience and omnipotence, then the postulation of such a being is not sufficient enough to explain the existence of the universe with not only its existence, but with its complex natural laws...its constants and values. Certainly only a omnipotent and omniscient being can create a universe from nothing and have the knowledge to engineer the DNA code along with all of the constants and values the universe has. So if such a being is doesn't have the power to create and sustain the universe, then such a being cannot exist within the universe that he doesn't even have the power to create, which would mean there is at least one possible world that this being doesn't exist in....ours.

So the concept of a LGMB is clearly irrational not only because of the mere concept, but because of the observational evidence we have with the universe.

No. Take your argument, cross out MGB and put in LGMB, and that's the argument.

See above.

Thus, LGMB's exist necessarily by the same token the MGB's do; it is possible that they are necessary- that is, there is some possible world P such that their existence is necessary.

See above.

Then the same applies to MGB/God. You want your cake and to eat it too, but you can't have it both ways. Either we can say that BOTH a MGB and a LGMB are possibly necessary (in which case, by your argument, they are actual or actually necessary), seeing as their necessity is not self-contradictory (the definition of possibility), or we say that NEITHER are- but we can't pick one but not the other.

See above.

This is a nonsense question. Its pretty obvious you have no background in formal logic, and don't even understand the modal logic your argument relies upon. I suggest you read some introductory background material so you can understand whats going on here- short of that, there's only so much I can explain to you.

No it isn't a nonsense question. Either you just don't understand the question, or you understand it, you just can't offer a response to it. So let me break it down to you further.

It sounds as if you are saying that just because it is possible for something to be necessary true, that doesn't mean it is necessarily true (correct me if Im wrong), I am saying the exact opposite, if it is possible for something to be necessarily true, then it IS necessarily true. So lets examine your position.

Your position: Just because it is possible for something to be necessarily true, that doesn't make it necessarily true.

Now, if something is possible, that would mean that under the right circumstances, that possibility can be "actualized", it could happen. So, if it is possible for God's existence to be necessarily true, then WHAT HAS TO HAPPEN TO MAKE IT NECESSARILY TRUE? What are the right circumstances that would make God's existence necessarily true? If you are saying it is possible, but untrue, what can happen to make it possible, but true?? That is the question I am asking. I would really like for you to answer this question.

That's not what I said at all.

Didn't you say God is responsible for everything that happens?

Because you have no response available to you; you're caught between a rock and a hard place- either you allow that an infinite number of LGMB's exist necessarily (and that a MGB is not a MGB- a contradiction), or you deny the crucial inference and sweep the rug out from under your own feet.

As I said, you're screwed either way.

See answer above.
 

Enai de a lukal

Well-Known Member
This can't be the case because if this being is omnipotent, he/she can do anything that is logically possible, and it is logically possible for such a being to be omniscient....so there is no good reason for you to give that will allow such a being to be omnipotent in all other areas except for knowledge.

This is hardly right- of omnipotence entailed omniscience, the problem of evil would be redundant. But omnipotence consists in the capacity to enact states of affairs, not a capacity for knowledge.

In any case, you're missing the point, which is that we can simply stipulate that a LMGB is maximally great, except in some respect which we can choose.

Ad hoc and illicit? Not at all, because unlike you, I can give reasons why the concept of a LGMB is irrational. First off, you said this being possesses all the omni's EXCEPT for omniscience, and I already explained why that wouldn't work. So if such a being cannot be omnipotent while also lacking the attribute of omniscience, then that would mean that such a being cannot be either omnipotent and or omniscient (you already stated that this being isn't omniscient).
Again, missing the point. You can't switch the definition halfway through the argument- this is what "ad hoc" means, and it should be obvious why it is illicit.

So the concept of a LGMB is clearly irrational not only because of the mere concept, but because of the observational evidence we have with the universe.
Well, it may be "irrational" meaning implausible- but that's fine. All we need is for it to not be logically contradictory, which it isn't (or if it is, then the MGB is too).

No it isn't a nonsense question. Either you just don't understand the question, or you understand it, you just can't offer a response to it. So let me break it down to you further.
Watching someone try to condescend when they're woefully out of their depth is sort of like watching a drunk person mess their pants without realizing it... I'm going to pretend you didn't say this, out of charity.

Your position: Just because it is possible for something to be necessarily true, that doesn't make it necessarily true.
This isn't my position. I'm saying that IF we grant this inference (which is not allowed in many systems of modal logic), then it follows that an arbitrarily infinite amount of LGMB's exist necessarily, and that the MGB is not the MGB- a contradiction.

Like I said, your argument is facing a fork and either option you take is ultimately fatal.
 

FranklinMichaelV.3

Well-Known Member
Focus....think about it.....
In the beginning...the void.

"Let there be light" ( the first creation)

That doesn't say anything. You are speaking of a singularity as defined by theories in science and you are saying they are wrong. Why are they wrong? Where did they to wrong in their math? What is actually a singularity? Is it a thing, a concept...is it a glob like you have made the claim?

Answering in abstract does not reveal much. Are you answering that way because you feel I am trying to challenge you? I simply want to know what is a singularity. I have definitions from science but you are saying they are wrong, that they do not know what they are talking about.

I want to know what it actually is. Have you studied one? Where do they exist? How do they come into an existence? And what can they do?
 
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