Evidence

[Call_of_the_Wild]

When I decide to stand up, it's because of electrons shooting around in my brain, usually as a result of some sensory input. That is change in my brain which is measurable with time.

If my brain stopped changing at this very moment, I would not do anything until something started it up again.

Two things...

1. I, as every Christian believe, that the mind is distinct from the brain. They are not the same thing. God has a mind, although no physical body...at which he used his eternal will to freely create the universe at the time he chose.

2. If you don't believe that your mind and brain is the same, then on your view, free will doesn't exist. If your actions are determined by electrons shooting in your brain, then what came first; the electron alignment or the thought? So no one is responsible for their actions if their actions are determined by electron figuration.

 

[sonofdad]

Two things...
1. I, as every Christian believe, that the mind is distinct from the brain. They are not the same thing. God has a mind, although no physical body...at which he used his eternal will to freely create the universe at the time he chose.

How convenient. In the real world though, things don't exist just because you believe they do.
Why does the mind not require change to process thoughts or make decisions?
Can the mind process information without the brain? If so, why do we need brains?
More importantly, can you demonstrate any of this?

If you don't believe that your mind and brain is the same, then on your view, free will doesn't exist.

Do you think I'm gonna accept your argument because I want there to be free will?

If your actions are determined by electrons shooting in your brain, then what came first; the electron alignment or the thought?

Electrons came before cells, cells came before neurons, neurons came before brains and brains came before thoughts as we know them.
What's your confusion?

So no one is responsible for their actions if their actions are determined by electron figuration.

Really? Great, then I'm gonna stay up late and make prank calls.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

1. I, as every Christian believe, that the mind is distinct from the brain.

It's hard to say, but at the moment I'd estimate a majority of those whose field relates to the study of the mind (cognitive science) agree. Classical reductionism and determinism was never intended to deal with consciousness, and as psychology was just becoming an actual scientific field physicists were just learning that classical reductionism and determinism are almost certainly wrong.


Cognitive psychologists and especially cognitive neuropsychologists are probably more inclined than most in the cognitive sciences to apply classical determinism to the "mind" and (like Dennett), equate it with the brain. That's because they tend to deal a lot more than most psychologists with neural modeling, computational neural networks, chemistry, and other "hard" sciences, yet only in a very limited way. So they tend not to study much physics or chemistry and are thus somewhat out of touch with broader trends within the physical and (to a lesser extent) the life sciences).

But I would hazard a guess that most of those whose work centers around the mind sciences subscribe to various theories in which the mind is an irreducible property of the brain, but is not the brain and cannot be reduced to the atomic or molecular dynamics of the brain.

If you don't believe that your mind and brain is the same, then on your view, free will doesn't exist.

A lot of people believe this.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

How convenient. In the real world though, things don't exist just because you believe they do.

When I start making the claim that "because I believe it, it is true", then the above quote will apply to me.

Why does the mind not require change to process thoughts or make decisions?

I've already answered this question in reference to God and his changelessness before the creation of the universe.

Can the mind process information without the brain? If so, why do we need brains?

We only need brains to operate in the physical world. This says nothing about the supernatural realm.

More importantly, can you demonstrate any of this?

Yes...but first explain for me how life came from non-living material and how you can start with a big bang and eventually get consciousness.

Do you think I'm gonna accept your argument because I want there to be free will?

No, but if I were to SLAP THE CRAP out of you then there would be no logical reason for you to blame me for my actions.......blame it on the electrons that are in my brain.

Electrons came before cells, cells came before neurons, neurons came before brains and brains came before thoughts as we know them.
What's your confusion?

LMAO so brains came before thoughts? So how long did we have brains before we got to the point of thinking?

Really? Great, then I'm gonna stay up late and make prank calls.

:beach: I will join you.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

If my brain stopped changing at this very moment

You'd be dead.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

It's hard to say, but at the moment I'd estimate a majority of those whose field relates to the study of the mind (cognitive science) agree. Classical reductionism and determinism was never intended to deal with consciousness, and as psychology was just becoming an actual scientific field physicists were just learning that classical reductionism and determinism are almost certainly wrong.

Is the mind and the brain the same thing or are they different?

Cognitive psychologists and especially cognitive neuropsychologists are probably more inclined than most in the cognitive sciences to apply classical determinism to the "mind" and (like Dennett), equate it with the brain. That's because they tend to deal a lot more than most psychologists with neural modeling, computational neural networks, chemistry, and other "hard" sciences, yet only in a very limited way. So they tend not to study much physics or chemistry and are thus somewhat out of touch with broader trends within the physical and (to a lesser extent) the life sciences).

I repeat; is the mind and the brain the same thing or are they different?

But I would hazard a guess that most of those whose work centers around the mind sciences subscribe to various theories in which the mind is an irreducible property of the brain, but is not the brain and cannot be reduced to the atomic or molecular dynamics of the brain.

So if the mind is not the brain then the brain can't be used to explain the origins of the mind...so where did the mind come from?

A lot of people believe this.

Because it seems true....if your mind is nothing but electrons parading back and forth through your brain and your actions are caused by it, then how can anyone be responsible for their behavior? We are basically programmed.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Is the mind and the brain the same thing or are they different?

Different. That is obvious. You don't use your autonomic nervous system for conscious thought. No brain scientist in the world would equate the two on that level.

I repeat; is the mind and the brain the same thing or are they different?

Different.

So if the mind is not the brain then the brain can't be used to explain the origins of the mind...so where did the mind come from?

The brain can be used to explain the origins of the mind.

Because it seems true....if your mind is nothing but electrons parading back and forth through your brain and your actions are caused by it, then how can anyone be responsible for their behavior? We are basically programmed.

To some extent, we are: Human thought is culture-specific. You speak English because of where you grew up and who you grew up with. You couldn't be Christian has you not been exposed to Christian thought (which is the case for many people). You were taught things about how to behave in certain settings (such as school, or perhaps a bar or club, or church) that do not exist everywhere. A great deal of who you are is shaped by the environment in which you grew up and it will continue to be this way. Then there is the genetic influence, both that specific to you and that which is specific to humans.

But I do not believe, nor do many within the cognitive sciences, that it makes any sense to think that everything is reducible to brain cells. But is the mind the product of the brain? For virtually everyone in the cognitive sciences the answer is yes.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Different. That is obvious. You don't use your autonomic nervous system for conscious thought. No brain scientist in the world would equate the two on that level.

Then explain the origin of consciousness. You can say the brain is made up of matter, but what is the mind made up of, if it is not the same thing as the brain?? Electrons are not the mind, neutrons are not the mind.....what is the mind made up of if not the brain???

The brain can be used to explain the origins of the mind.

Actually, it can't. All you can show is there is a correlation between the two, but you can't use one to explain the other. At least, that hasn't been demonstrated.

To some extent, we are: Human thought is culture-specific. You speak English because of where you grew up and who you grew up with. You couldn't be Christian has you not been exposed to Christian thought (which is the case for many people).

You were taught things about how to behave in certain settings (such as school, or perhaps a bar or club, or church) that do not exist everywhere. A great deal of who you are is shaped by the environment in which you grew up and it will continue to be this way. Then there is the genetic influence, both that specific to you and that which is specific to humans.

True, your environment plays a huge factor in who you are. But at the same time, as I'm sure you are aware of.....there are MANY men and women who were raised as Christians but later found themselves non-believers as they got older. I was raised as a Seventh Day Adventist, but as I got older and began to become my own person and able to make my own decision and think for myself, I abandoned the SDA denomination. I didn't go as far as some people by becoming an unbeliever, but I can speak from personal experience that how one is raised is necessarily how they will end up.

But is the mind the product of the brain? For virtually everyone in the cognitive sciences the answer is yes.

Well lets talk about it then. Imagine you have a dog and your dog is sleeping on the floor in your room, and you fall asleep on the bed. When you wake up, you find yourself in the dog's body. You retain the same thoughts you had when you were in the human body....you still have your self-awareness despite you being in your human body. So in other words, you realize "Holy crap, I am in my dog's body!!!" As you are in the body of the dog, you can still see your body, resting on the bed. You follow me so far??

Now, in this analogy.......who are you? Are you the dog, or are the human that is in the bed? You can't be both. So who are you? So if your wife/girlfriend/anyone comes in the room and walks over to the bed and tries to wake you up.....you, in the dog's body, will think "hey, I am over here?"....but how can you be "over here", when your body is in the bed?

The point is, your mind is personal only to you. No one else has your thoughts, experiences, memories, sensations, aspirations, goals......they may have their own, but they don't have yours. Your mind is personal only to you.

So in this analogy, your brain is one place, but your mind is in another place. You go wherever your mind goes. You are your mind, it is who you are. So your mind is not dependent upon your brain to exist, if it is possible for it to exist in another brain.

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

what is the mind made up of if not the brain???

An irreducible and emergent property of neural activity in many parts of the brain.

Actually, it can't. All you can show is there is a correlation between the two, but you can't use one to explain the other. At least, that hasn't been demonstrated.

When was the last time you saw functional imaging of someone's conscious thoughts?

True, your environment plays a huge factor in who you are. But at the same time,

I'm not arguing against free will. I'm arguing for a version of it that requires a level of familiarity with complex systems that I don't think will mean anything to you.

Well lets talk about it then. Imagine you have a dog and your dog is sleeping on the floor in your room, and you fall asleep on the bed. When you wake up, you find yourself in the dog's body. You retain the same thoughts you had when you were in the human body....you still have your self-awareness despite you being in your human body. So in other words, you realize "Holy crap, I am in my dog's body!!!"

Clearly, then, I'm in a really bad movie probably starring Rob Schneider or Tim Allen.

As you are in the body of the dog, you can still see your body, resting on the bed. You follow me so far??

Not unless we're writing a bad screenplay.

Now, in this analogy.......who are you?

That's the best you can come up with? Not the "what if we downloaded your brain onto a computer, and then put it in a body that looked exactly like you. Which would be the real you?"

Have you heard the one about the guy who had a railroad spike through his skull? Guy's working on the railroad, all the live long day, when all of the sudden he turns into one of the most famous case studies in neuroscience, beyond clive wearing or HM. And when you can explain to me how any metaphysical explanation of you have can explain why his personality changed the way it did thanks to brain damage to particular areas, while damage to other areas has changed other people in different ways, and how lesions or other similar damage can result in different types of aphasia, all including the soul and how it works with these processes, then talk get back to me.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

An irreducible and emergent property of neural activity in many parts of the brain.

Sounds like you are putting words together to make it sound nice and technical lol. I won't even bother with this.

When was the last time you saw functional imaging of someone's conscious thoughts?

I have no idea how what the above relates to what I said.

I'm not arguing against free will. I'm arguing for a version of it that requires a level of familiarity with complex systems that I don't think will mean anything to you.

Clearly, then, I'm in a really bad movie probably starring Rob Schneider or Tim Allen.

Which doesn't address what I said in any way, shape, or form.

Not unless we're writing a bad screenplay.

How about addressing what was said?

That's the best you can come up with? Not the "what if we downloaded your brain onto a computer, and then put it in a body that looked exactly like you. Which would be the real you?"

Rhetoric.

Have you heard the one about the guy who had a railroad spike through his skull? Guy's working on the railroad, all the live long day, when all of the sudden he turns into one of the most famous case studies in neuroscience, beyond clive wearing or HM. And when you can explain to me how any metaphysical explanation of you have can explain why his personality changed the way it did thanks to brain damage to particular areas, while damage to other areas has changed other people in different ways, and how lesions or other similar damage can result in different types of aphasia, all including the soul and how it works with these processes, then talk get back to me.

Wait a minute, so you disregard what I said and then offer a challenge to me? No, you get back to me when you address the analogy. It is actually a good analogy, and I give full credit to Alvin Plantiga for that one :beach:

 

[sonofdad]

When I start making the claim that "because I believe it, it is true", then the above quote will apply to me.

Well, I assumed that you believing it entailed you knowing it to be true. I also, perhaps wrongly, assumed that you have no good evidence to support it.
Please prove me wrong, show me your evidence.

I've already answered this question in reference to God and his changelessness before the creation of the universe.

I must have missed the part where you explained in any way how that would work.

We only need brains to operate in the physical world. This says nothing about the supernatural realm.

Then what's even the need for the physical world if we could just be supernatural floating minds sipping on supernatural mojiitos in the supernatural sun?

Yes...but first explain for me how life came from non-living material and how you can start with a big bang and eventually get consciousness.

You came from non-living materials with the assistance of a couple of evolved organisms.
Way before that, when there were no organisms, I would assume that life came from non-living materials at some point, otherwise we wouldn't be here having this delightful discussion.
I don't know how that happened, but perhaps you might want to look into abiogenesis for some explanations of how it could possibly happen, or ask a biochemist.
Or maybe a god did it, I don't know.

What does any of that have to do with you demonstrating this mind you speak of? Do you think that if I can't provide an alternative explanation then yours is automatically true?

No, but if I were to SLAP THE CRAP out of you then there would be no logical reason for you to blame me for my actions.......blame it on the electrons that are in my brain.

I don't need a logical reason, remember I have no choice either, my reaction is merely the result of neural impulses interpreting the sensory inputs from you SLAPPING THE CRAP out my body. So if I SLAP THE CRAP out of you back, you can only blame your own neural impulses for initiating the exchange.

LMAO so brains came before thoughts? So how long did we have brains before we got to the point of thinking?

Does an embryo have thoughts?

 

[LegionOnomaMoi]

Sounds like you are putting words together to make it sound nice and technical lol. I won't even bother with this.

I'll make it plain and simple. We can see the ways in which structural changes to the brain can radically alter personalities. We can note how functional imagining shows which parts of the brain are involved in various types of cognitive processes. We can see how self-awareness is possible when vast areas of the brain are damaged and both new and old memories are virtually non-existent, and we can see when the damage to the brain is so severe that the person's body continues to function but they have no mind. When you can explain why that is true, but that the mind is not a product of the brain, get back to me.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

Well, I assumed that you believing it entailed you knowing it to be true. I also, perhaps wrongly, assumed that you have no good evidence to support it.
Please prove me wrong, show me your evidence.

See the dog analogy I laid on Legion. Are you the dog, or are you the body? Your brain is still in the bed within the human body...but your mind is somewhere else. So who are you, the dog, or the body?

I must have missed the part where you explained in any way how that would work.

I forgot the original point.

Then what's even the need for the physical world if we could just be supernatural floating minds sipping on supernatural mojiitos in the supernatural sun?

For some reason God wanted his creation to become part of earth realm. Sue him.

You came from non-living materials with the assistance of a couple of evolved organisms.

Thank you for giving me your OPINION, but that sure as heck isn't science. But dont worry, science hasn't been able to explain that for us yet, we have to wait a little longer while science jury deliberates on the matter (no pun intended).

Way before that, when there were no organisms, I would assume that life came from non-living materials at some point, otherwise we wouldn't be here having this delightful discussion.

Thanks for once again giving me your opinion. Mind if I give you mines? Well, I think life came from a supernatural Creator. You see, I find it hard to believe that consciousness can come from non-consciousness or life can come from non-life. I believe the opposite, actually. That is my opinion.

I don't know how that happened, but perhaps you might want to look into abiogenesis for some explanations of how it could possibly happen, or ask a biochemist.
Or maybe a god did it, I don't know.

The latter.

What does any of that have to do with you demonstrating this mind you speak of? Do you think that if I can't provide an alternative explanation then yours is automatically true?

Well, there are only two possibilities.....either the origin of life came from life, or the origin of life came from non-life. I never took me long to decipher which one makes more logical sense. But that is just me.

I don't need a logical reason, remember I have no choice either, my reaction is merely the result of neural impulses interpreting the sensory inputs from you SLAPPING THE CRAP out my body. So if I SLAP THE CRAP out of you back, you can only blame your own neural impulses for initiating the exchange.

Point well taken. So on your view, there is no free will. Gotcha.

Does an embryo have thoughts?

No.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

There is an evolution of Religion as well as other social constructs. In general the most commonly accepted idea as to how it came to be is this.

When we started grouping together in much larger groups the general morality that keeps us in line stops working. The larger the grouping of people the better the chance to have slackers that cheat the system. So in order to create order two different social mechanisms were created. The first is Government. Laws, concequences, ect are all part of the first. This was designed in a more logical way of keeping people in line. Its flawed of course and thousands of years later we still haven't gotten it right.

The second is religion. And the concept of religion is based on type 1 errors of reason. Its a false positive. We can't be right all the time. Its impossible. If we were then we really would be god. So we make 2 general types of erros. Type 1 Errors which are False Positives and Type 2 Errors which are false negatives. A type 1 Error is a simple mistake of thinking a special dance caused it to rain. A false Negative is assuming a crunching sound in the woods was the wind when in actuality it was a deadly predator.

Thoughout our evolution we have been selected to favor type 1 errors. If we run away from an imaginary predator and the ones that really are there then we have a better chance at surviving when we don't run away from imaginary or real predators.

Religion and superstition is based in Type 1 Errors of reasoning and once someone "believes" something it is different in their head. It becomes an Axiom. God exists. The powerful notion of god has more than likely developed over time and become instilled in some people. Their parents believed it, their grandparents believed it, their great grandparents belived it. So on and so on.

Furthermore if you teach a child something from a very young age they will often hold this notion reguardless of how right or wrong it is for the rest of their life. This obviously isn't always true but general things such as morality, how to treat your parner and other values that include belief in god are usually instilled in childhood. Very few Atheists that were brought up atheists turn to religion. Very few Atheists in general turn to religion. Though that is a point to be taken another day.

 

[Call_of_the_Wild]

I'll make it plain and simple. We can see the ways in which structural changes to the brain can radically alter personalities. We can note how functional imagining shows which parts of the brain are involved in various types of cognitive processes.

But those functional imagining won't show what a person is thinking. There is no "super duper" cat scan that can show images of what a person is thinking. So If I start thinking of the Pacers beating the Heat in Game 2 of the EC finals, there is no type of imagining that can get that deep in my personal thoughts and say "This person is thinking of X", or "This person is thinking of Y". What you are talking about is a small piece of the pie.

We can see how self-awareness is possible when vast areas of the brain are damaged and both new and old memories are virtually non-existent, and we can see when the damage to the brain is so severe that the person's body continues to function but they have no mind. When you can explain why that is true, but that the mind is not a product of the brain, get back to me.

Well, when I make the claim that the mind controls internal functions of the body, then I will get back to you.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

But those functional imagining won't show what a person is thinking. There is no "super duper" cat scan that can show images of what a person is thinking. So If I start thinking of the Pacers beating the Heat in Game 2 of the EC finals, there is no type of imagining that can get that deep in my personal thoughts and say "This person is thinking of X", or "This person is thinking of Y". What you are talking about is a small piece of the pie.

We're getting there. Its still in its infancy but we're getting there. I would give you a link but I haven't made the required 15 posts yet to do so.

 

[Breathe]

Very few Atheists that were brought up atheists turn to religion. Very few Atheists in general turn to religion. Though that is a point to be taken another day.

Stick around, there's a few of us here.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

Stick around, there's a few of us here.

I don't doubt that it has happened. It simply is just far rarer than the reverse.

 

[Breathe]

I don't doubt that it has happened. It simply is just far rarer than the reverse.

I don't think it's as uncommon as people think; I've spoken to a lot of folk who come to belief from irreligious backgrounds.

Then again, I seem to live in upside-down world; my experiences seem to be vastly different to most people's.

 

[Monk Of Reason]

I don't think it's as uncommon as people think; I've spoken to a lot of folk who come to belief from irreligious backgrounds.

Then again, I seem to live in upside-down world; my experiences seem to be vastly different to most people's.

May be. This may not be the thread to do this but may I ask what made you transition from Atheist to theist?